Is internal Kungfu knowledge deliberately hidden?

[dwai]

2 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

Sounds simple - that's how you develop fajin?

It is part of the process

 

The reason I asked the question is, when I ask this of beginner/intermediate level practitioners, they struggle to be able to place their minds in more than one point at a time. But as you said, it is simple, yet they consider it very difficult. So we start small, and it takes time and perseverance -- but eventually, it becomes simple and natural.

[freeform]

4 minutes ago, dwai said:

But as you said, it is simple, yet they consider it very difficult. So we start small, and it takes time and perseverance -- but eventually, it becomes simple and natural.

 

Indeed

 

4 minutes ago, dwai said:

It is part of the process

 

How many other parts are there to the process?

[Wilhelm]

On 24/12/2020 at 3:33 PM, Small Fur said:

How do we know who is a true teacher? What makes someone a true student?

 

Any student at any moment can see through a teacher and realize truth...

 

A student that sees deeply can see through the falsity within a teacher.

In my experience - this is harder than it sounds!

Edited December 29, 2020 by Wilhelm

[dwai]

8 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

Indeed

 

 

How many other parts are there to the process?

Depends on what kind of “fa Jin” one wants to do. There’s the fascia based stuff (which is not what temple style taiji considers internal, afaik), then there’s the real energetic stuff. Within it there’s the application of our own field or that which is available “outside”. 
 

But all of those have components which can be drilled separately in solo practice, but culmination happens in two-person sets. 

[freeform]

4 minutes ago, dwai said:

Depends on what kind of “fa Jin” one wants to do. There’s the fascia based stuff (which is not what temple style taiji considers internal, afaik), then there’s the real energetic stuff. Within it there’s the application of our own field or that which is available “outside”. 
 

But all of those have components which can be drilled separately in solo practice, but culmination happens in two-person sets.

 

I think what I'm trying to ascertain is what 'simple' means to you...

 

To me  Complex means 'having many interconnected parts'.... Simple means the opposite - so 'very few (or indeed no) interconnected parts'...

 

From what you say, it seems to me the process is more complex than it is simple...

 

Also - although I don't train in martial arts (I've done a bit just to placate one of my teachers) - my teacher who does - says not to train push-hands with one person for too long - because you develop sensitivity to each other and it becomes too cooperative... like a dance where the 'leading' is done internally...

 

He says you must touch hands with as many people as possible - including the ones that think taiji is basically wrestling.

 

Do you agree, or does this go counter skill building in your tradition?

[dwai]

12 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

I think what I'm trying to ascertain is what 'simple' means to you...

 

To me  Complex means 'having many interconnected parts'.... Simple means the opposite - so 'very few (or indeed no) interconnected parts'...

 

From what you say, it seems to me the process is more complex than it is simple...

When a skill (such as this) is developed, imho, the key determinant is how well it is practiced in a step-wise manner. We don't have to learn everything in one day. But over time, the individual components become easy. it is more a factor of easy or difficult, rather than simple or complex. Is a difficult task necessarily complex? Threading a needle can be difficult, but is it complex?

 

12 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

Also - although I don't train in martial arts (I've done a bit just to placate one of my teachers) - my teacher who does - says not to train push-hands with one person for too long - because you develop sensitivity to each other and it becomes too cooperative... like a dance where the 'leading' is done internally...

 

He says you must touch hands with as many people as possible - including the ones that think taiji is basically wrestling.

 

Do you agree, or does this go counter skill building in your tradition?

This is very important -- touch hands with as many people as possible, with as much variation in their levels/skill/etc. But unfortunately, most don't have access to a wide variety of partners with whom this can be trained. In my own case, I have 3-4 regular partners and we (used to, pre-covid) work out together. It is always interesting to see the difference in results from person to person.

 

A shorter person will do things in a different way than someone who's taller than you. All the factors matter -- big/small, tall/short, strong/weak, etc.

 

But before we can work with different people, skills need regular and systematic drilling. I've noticed the ones hardest to "bounce" are the ones who have an advanced internal skill (ting and song). Untrained people are usually like big sacks of potato -- very easy to affect, but restraint is required because we'll end up hurting them if we don't. That helps us to develop other skills more -- how to ting more, how ting can give rise to tong. 

 

Personally, for me, the martial side lost it's charm a long time ago. But IT IS a lot of fun to explore these things. 

[freeform]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

it is more a factor of easy or difficult, rather than simple or complex.

 

Yup - makes more sense!

 

1 hour ago, dwai said:

This is very important -- touch hands with as many people as possible, with as much variation in their levels/skill/etc.

 

Yeah - exactly what I've been told.

 

I've done only a little Taiji training - I think through my extensive neigong training, I've developed enough skill to be able to Na and Fa - but only with energetically open people - and rarely under pressure.

 

My teacher who trains Taiji explains that it's this very fact of keeping centred, song and ting while under pressure - this is what creates the sort of skill necessary for cultivation... I can see how this would be a pretty considerable advantage in 'normal life' too...

 

This is the big thing missed by the 'yeah but it doesn't work in the cage' type mentality... It's not designed to work in the cage... it's designed as a form of self development - to create the ability to be strong but calm, relaxed and attentive in the face of adversity. While training 'for the cage' can increase confidence, I've found that it doesn't create the same quality at all, and has very little positive crossover into normal life (and often a negative crossover into cultivation)...

Edited December 29, 2020 by freeform

[dwai]

50 minutes ago, freeform said:

This is the big thing missed by the 'yeah but it doesn't work in the cage' type mentality... It's not designed to work in the cage... it's designed as a form of self development - to create the ability to be strong but calm, relaxed and attentive in the face of adversity. While training 'for the cage' can increase confidence, I've found that it doesn't create the same quality at all, and has very little positive crossover into normal life (and often a negative crossover into cultivation)...

I whole-heartedly agree with the above. Martial arts is not for “fighting” alone — it is a preparatory method for the spiritual path (or should be). Even if one doesn’t have a spiritual interest, having a good martial arts practice can make them well balanced human beings. 
 

I like a Canadian martial arts instructor - Adam Chan. He recently was interviewed by an YouTuber who has a very popular martial arts channel, where they regularly watch and analyze in a MMA vs TMA type rhetoric. 
 

Adam told them in the interview that he considers Kungfu like a tree. It has everything you need but you need to make it functional depending on the situation. He’s not strictly an internal martial arts guy, but we can see internal principles in his training. 
 

Spoiler

 

 

Edited December 29, 2020 by dwai

[Cleansox]

11 hours ago, freeform said:

 

This is the big thing missed by the 'yeah but it doesn't work in the cage' type mentality... It's not designed to work in the cage... it's designed as a form of self development - to create the ability to be strong but calm, relaxed and attentive in the face of adversity.

Unfortunately, there still seems to be teachers who advertise the martial superiority of these arts, at least in China. Wasn't that the back story to that chinese MMA-practitioner fighting taiji masters? 

 

So he followed the time-honoured tradition within martial arts circles and challenged these publicly known persons with fighting ability. 

 

And, according to a text on Bullshido, he lost his social points as a result of it, mainly because the image of the martial efficacy of these arts are subject to politics. 

 

[freeform]

4 hours ago, Cleansox said:

there still seems to be teachers who advertise the martial superiority of these arts, at least in China. Wasn't that the back story to that chinese MMA-practitioner fighting taiji masters? 

The majority of taiji ‘masters’ left in China are simply wushu people affiliated with governmental institutions to promote ‘traditional Chinese culture’. 
 

There’s a lot to this. There’s political pressure (and funding/livelihoods etc) - there’s the face-saving issue... 

 

The majority of skilled IMA practitioners have either left or are effectively trying to stay under the radar in China.
 

The ones accepting to fight the MMA dude are generally attempting to protect their position, their big school, their government funding or something like that.
 

These are not the best martial artists - these are the most political or business oriented ‘masters’ - and have clearly lost all touch with reality.

 

This echoes what we discussed about touching hands with as many people as possible... these guys have only been touching hands with students - and not felt a non-cooperative touch in years. Even a beginner with any full contact skill will be able to defeat them.

[dwai]

5 hours ago, freeform said:

The majority of taiji ‘masters’ left in China are simply wushu people affiliated with governmental institutions to promote ‘traditional Chinese culture’. 
 

There’s a lot to this. There’s political pressure (and funding/livelihoods etc) - there’s the face-saving issue... 

 

The majority of skilled IMA practitioners have either left or are effectively trying to stay under the radar in China.

That is my understanding as well. I remember a story about the head of the Chinese Taiji Association coming to take lessons from my grandmaster in the 90s. 

5 hours ago, freeform said:

 

The ones accepting to fight the MMA dude are generally attempting to protect their position, their big school, their government funding or something like that.
 

These are not the best martial artists - these are the most political or business oriented ‘masters’ - and have clearly lost all touch with reality.

I think these are self-proclaimed masters, rather than real "masters" per se. 

5 hours ago, freeform said:

 

This echoes what we discussed about touching hands with as many people as possible... these guys have only been touching hands with students - and not felt a non-cooperative touch in years. Even a beginner with any full contact skill will be able to defeat them.

Also, the biggest drawback is the lack of full-contact sparring/fighting in the taijiquan (not sure about other IMA) world. My teacher, who has fought in and won many fights against disparate martial arts stylists in his youth using both kungfu and later taijiquan, tells me (and I'm paraphrasing here), "if you want to fight, you have to practice fighting. Just doing forms and acting mystical will give you a bloody nose and get you knocked out". 

[freeform]

1 minute ago, dwai said:

"if you want to fight, you have to practice fighting. Just doing forms and acting mystical will give you a bloody nose and get you knocked out"

 

Spot on.

 

And I've seen pretty strong full-contact sparring between taiji practitioners... it looks like pretty much any (stand-up) MMA fight - not like taiji form or push hands...

[dwai]

5 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

Spot on.

 

And I've seen pretty strong full-contact sparring between taiji practitioners... it looks like pretty much any (stand-up) MMA fight - not like taiji form or push hands...

I think the biggest misunderstanding people have is that functional taijiquan will look like practice taijiquan, or that taijiquan will follow the conventional mode of engagement.

 

I remember once showing my friend (non-martial artist and skeptic of the highest order) the fajin stuff. And I was knocking him gently into a wall, first with two palms, and then with two index fingers on his chest. He said, it is just "physics...I'm not stable enough and can't get leverage against you". He got into a deep bow and arrow stance, braced, and said, "Push me back while I exert all my strength on you".  I said, "why should I use my power on your strength? I will exploit your weakness." And so, with him pushing back at me at my ward-off hand, while I was facing him, I pushed him on the right side and knocked him into a wall. He immediately said, "That's cheating!"

 

[Rara]

On 29/12/2020 at 6:24 PM, freeform said:

 

Yup - makes more sense!

 

 

Yeah - exactly what I've been told.

 

I've done only a little Taiji training - I think through my extensive neigong training, I've developed enough skill to be able to Na and Fa - but only with energetically open people - and rarely under pressure.

 

My teacher who trains Taiji explains that it's this very fact of keeping centred, song and ting while under pressure - this is what creates the sort of skill necessary for cultivation... I can see how this would be a pretty considerable advantage in 'normal life' too...

 

This is the big thing missed by the 'yeah but it doesn't work in the cage' type mentality... It's not designed to work in the cage... it's designed as a form of self development - to create the ability to be strong but calm, relaxed and attentive in the face of adversity. While training 'for the cage' can increase confidence, I've found that it doesn't create the same quality at all, and has very little positive crossover into normal life (and often a negative crossover into cultivation)...

 

Literally wrote about this in my PPJ last night

[Rara]

20 hours ago, dwai said:

Also, the biggest drawback is the lack of full-contact sparring/fighting in the taijiquan (not sure about other IMA) world. My teacher, who has fought in and won many fights against disparate martial arts stylists in his youth using both kungfu and later taijiquan, tells me (and I'm paraphrasing here), "if you want to fight, you have to practice fighting. Just doing forms and acting mystical will give you a bloody nose and get you knocked out". 

 

Yep. I've experienced this first hand many times.

[Rara]

17 hours ago, dwai said:

I remember once showing my friend (non-martial artist and skeptic of the highest order) the fajin stuff. And I was knocking him gently into a wall, first with two palms, and then with two index fingers on his chest. He said, it is just "physics...I'm not stable enough and can't get leverage against you". He got into a deep bow and arrow stance, braced, and said, "Push me back while I exert all my strength on you".  I said, "why should I use my power on your strength? I will exploit your weakness." And so, with him pushing back at me at my ward-off hand, while I was facing him, I pushed him on the right side and knocked him into a wall. He immediately said, "That's cheating!"

 

 

Would you say fajin is more appropriate for the strike? I get using pushing for demonstration purposes, but any skilled fighter won't bother pushing you.

[Paradoxal]

3 minutes ago, Rara said:

Would you say fajin is more appropriate for the strike? I get using pushing for demonstration purposes, but any skilled fighter won't bother pushing you.

If you can push someone, you can opt to land a number of other, more devastating hits instead. Situational, I would assume. 

[dwai]

1 hour ago, Rara said:

 

Would you say fajin is more appropriate for the strike? I get using pushing for demonstration purposes, but any skilled fighter won't bother pushing you.

Unless they are grapplers. One buddy of mine is a natural wrestler.  We’d spar for fun as teenagers, and every time he would go for a takedown. 
 

But you are right, in that, in a real fight, one would use striking instead of pushing. Fajin with short power is what would be applied — but I’m unsure of the ramification as that would likely cause internal damage on the recipient. 

[Rara]

4 hours ago, dwai said:

Unless they are grapplers. One buddy of mine is a natural wrestler.  We’d spar for fun as teenagers, and every time he would go for a takedown. 
 

But you are right, in that, in a real fight, one would use striking instead of pushing. Fajin with short power is what would be applied — but I’m unsure of the ramification as that would likely cause internal damage on the recipient. 

 

Yes, and actually, I always say superior grappling > superior striking. So of you can get a takedown, happy days

[Rara]

5 hours ago, Paradoxal said:

If you can push someone, you can opt to land a number of other, more devastating hits instead. Situational, I would assume. 

 

Yeah, situational is the best way to describe it. I've always found that the opportunity to push effectively is rarely there. If you're in range to do that, you might as well punch them in the head.

 

Situational, of course. This is only in the event of one being attacked/being an act of self-defence. I must keep that disclaimer there haha.

[Cleansox]

19 minutes ago, Rara said:

 

Situational, of course. This is only in the event of one being attacked/being an act of self-defence. I must keep that disclaimer there haha.

If a person is in range for a strike, it is either an attack or a date. 

(Social distancing joke)

[Gerard]

On 12/12/2020 at 2:01 PM, dwai said:

traditional senior masters have deliberately hidden  the secrets of internal martial arts from western/modern students 

 

1. Which secrets?

2. When the student does the hard work the fruits will be reaped.

 

End of story!