Unable to just “observe” thoughts- tips?

[Wilhelm]

Hi oglights,

 

I'm going to defer to the experiences meditators who've already posted in this thread.  And going to parrot the advice of building Qi (possibly through lifestyle adjustment - +diet, +sleep) if you haven't already tweaked that.

 

Otherwise - I know observing thoughts is foundational to several systems, but (assuming you're practicing seated) it might be even more foundational to practice sitting still for progressively longer periods of time (no fidgeting, no movement other than to fix the posture if you've lost it - but that would only happen if your mindfulness slips).  I trained that skill first before observing thoughts, but again, take some of the other advice before worrying about this.

 

You've clearly got a strong desire to succeed and a good heart to persevere this long with it.  Best of luck!

[freeform]

2 hours ago, Wilhelm said:

Otherwise - I know observing thoughts is foundational to several systems, but (assuming you're practicing seated) it might be even more foundational to practice sitting still for progressively longer periods of time (no fidgeting, no movement other than to fix the posture if you've lost it - but that would only happen if your mindfulness slips).  I trained that skill first before observing thoughts, but again, take some of the other advice before worrying about this.

 

This is a common requirement for teachers in Asia actually.

 

I hope I'm not giving away the big secret (actually I don't care  - you either can do it or not) - but there's a test many of them do - basically tell you to sit still and then walk away (Without any other instruction). The test is to see how long you can sit for... the correct answer should be around 3 to 5hrs

[anshino23]

2 hours ago, freeform said:

I hope I'm not giving away the big secret (actually I don't care  - you either can do it or not) - but there's a test many of them do - basically tell you to sit still and then walk away (Without any other instruction). The test is to see how long you can sit for... the correct answer should be around 3 to 5hrs

 

Yikes. And they expect you're capable of doing that without having gone through the YJJ process and built the neigong body? Or does "through brute force alone" also count? Like I think I could sit that long, but doesn't mean I would be a good "sit" at all. May slouch, lose correct posture, etc. 

[freeform]

13 hours ago, anshino23 said:

 

Yikes. And they expect you're capable of doing that without having gone through the YJJ process and built the neigong body? Or does "through brute force alone" also count? Like I think I could sit that long, but doesn't mean I would be a good "sit" at all. May slouch, lose correct posture, etc. 

Yup - it’s happened several times to me - and with teachers from different traditions and different countries.

 

I think it’s not important necessarily whether you enter a meditative state of any kind - I think it’s more a test of destractability, patience and the ability to follow instructions.

 

For some posture and complete stillness (of body) was important - so they’d keep an eye on you. For some they’d just leave you there and walk off.

 

The worst part was that you have no idea what’s going on... you don’t necessarily know it’s a test... you don’t know what’s expected if you... you also don’t know how long it’s been - 4 hours sitting feels like 10hours of a normal day... You don’t know if they’ve forgotten about you, or you missed some instruction... when other people start fidgeting or getting up you feel very drawn to do that too...

 

Most people would get up after half an hour and look for the teacher to ask what they should do (go home was the usual answer)... others would fidget, stretch or try to engage other people.
 

Though often I was on my own. Having failed the test once, I never failed again... though it involved sitting and silently gritting my teeth through the whole thing - or at least until the numbness overtook the pain  

[freeform]

18 hours ago, Wilhelm said:

no movement other than to fix the posture if you've lost it - but that would only happen if your mindfulness slips

There’s a way to fix ones posture without getting out of mindful state... (although it requires that your ‘internal body’ is mobile)... 

 

If you for instance straighten your back actively, it’ll be an action - and so you’ll have to hold that new posture. You’d hold it physically and your hold it mentally - which would lose any of the meditative qualities you developed.

 

So the Daoist way is to straighten without straightening... by basically using mudra.

So if you find you’ve slouched, just very slowly put you dominant hand in the sword fingers mudra in your lap and point up - engaging the soft tissues. If your inner body is awake it will slowly straighten itself through the spine using an inner stretch rather than a contraction.

 

You just release your sword fingers and you’ll find you can stay upright without any effort or holding.

[RobB]

I like the suggestion above about trying a change of practice to one that focusses on the breath. This would couple an attention-boosting practice with observation of physical sensation rather than mental process - which may be useful. As a side effect your breath may lengthen and relax, releasing physical tension and increasing oxygenation (more Qi!).