Diamond Sutra

[Mig]

How important is to study the Diamond Sutra both in the original version or in the Chinese version and why is important? Should one read first the heart sutra or the Diamond sutra? How does that help in reading or learning it by heart?

[Maddie]

7 hours ago, Mig said:

How important is to study the Diamond Sutra both in the original version or in the Chinese version and why is important? Should one read first the heart sutra or the Diamond sutra? How does that help in reading or learning it by heart?

 

Well being pragmatic about these issues I would say start with the heart sutra simply because it's shorter and therefore it would be easier to memorize.

[Mig]

On 12/22/2020 at 7:04 AM, dmattwads said:

 

Well being pragmatic about these issues I would say start with the heart sutra simply because it's shorter and therefore it would be easier to memorize.

And why is it important to read the heart sutra to understand the diamond sutra? I am reading the heart sutra, Red Pine translation and still don't understand much.

[Maddie]

3 minutes ago, Mig said:

And why is it important to read the heart sutra to understand the diamond sutra? I am reading the heart sutra, Red Pine translation and still don't understand much.

 

I didn't say this was the reason to read it.

 

Basically in a nut shell the heart sutra lists the five skandhas and explains how and why each one of them is not substantial, is not self. The conclusion it seems to reach is that once you understand this, you understand everything you need to know.

[C T]

One could always ask Google how to understand the various meanings of the different sutras. Or listen to the many teachings and/or commentaries from numerous online Buddhist resources, for example, Lotsawa House, Buddhistdoor, Lion's Roar, Shambala, FPMT, and so on. 

[Mig]

7 hours ago, C T said:

One could always ask Google how to understand the various meanings of the different sutras. Or listen to the many teachings and/or commentaries from numerous online Buddhist resources, for example, Lotsawa House, Buddhistdoor, Lion's Roar, Shambala, FPMT, and so on. 

 

I did ask and one of the many reasons why I asked about the heart sutra is because I started reading the Qingjing jing the book of clarity and stillness and found that many lines come from the heart sutra. At the same time, I found the Diamond sutra and started reading to understand the underlying meanings that is not understood if there is no explanation.

[Maddie]

1 minute ago, Mig said:

 

I did ask and one of the many reasons why I asked about the heart sutra is because I started reading the Qingjing jing the book of clarity and stillness and found that many lines come from the heart sutra. At the same time, I found the Diamond sutra and started reading to understand the underlying meanings that is not understood if there is no explanation.

 

The Diamond sutra is about emptiness.

Nothing is substantial.

Nothing is permanent.

Nothing is ultimately satisfying.

[Mig]

11 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

 

The Diamond sutra is about emptiness.

Nothing is substantial.

Nothing is permanent.

Nothing is ultimately satisfying.

 

Thanks. If I hadn't read it without explanation both books, I wouldn't have understood the meaning or the message. Now, I am reading Master Nan Huai-jin, Diamond sutra explained and I am finding clear explanation as I should have expected from other books. Now regarding those concepts as permanent, nothing or emptiness, I wonder how different they are from the same concepts in Daoism.

[Maddie]

1 minute ago, Mig said:

 

Thanks. If I hadn't read it without explanation both books, I wouldn't have understood the meaning or the message. Now, I am reading Master Nan Huai-jin, Diamond sutra explained and I am finding clear explanation as I should have expected from other books. Now regarding those concepts as permanent, nothing or emptiness, I wonder how different they are from the same concepts in Daoism.

 

I can't say as much about the Taoist concepts as I am less familiar with them, but in regards to impermanence from the Taoist point of view if one looks at the model of yin/yang it can be seen that yin and yang are always in flux each becoming the other and always in motions which to me seems to illustrate well impermanence.

[Mig]

10 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

 

I can't say as much about the Taoist concepts as I am less familiar with them, but in regards to impermanence from the Taoist point of view if one looks at the model of yin/yang it can be seen that yin and yang are always in flux each becoming the other and always in motions which to me seems to illustrate well impermanence.

I am not sure Yin Yang is a Daoist concept, the idea comes from the Yijing. The constant Dao as in the first line of the DDJ  seems to be close to the idea of permanent. Thanks again, reading what is out there published and reading from someone who had read it and experienced is different and helpful.

[Maddie]

1 minute ago, Mig said:

I am not sure Yin Yang is a Daoist concept, the idea comes from the Yijing. The constant Dao as in the first line of the DDJ  seems to be close to the idea of permanent. Thanks again, reading what is out there published and reading from someone who had read it and experienced is different and helpful.

 

True yin/yang did not originate from Taoism, but are a central theme in it. Much like karma, Samsara, and liberation didn't originate with Buddhism, but play a central role in Buddhism.

[Maddie]

Another fun little tid-bit is its common in Asia to recite the Heart Sutra to clear and area of ghosts, and to improve one's karma.

[Mig]

1 hour ago, dmattwads said:

Another fun little tid-bit is its common in Asia to recite the Heart Sutra to clear and area of ghosts, and to improve one's karma.

As I am reading the Diamond Sutra, just found the heart attack Sutra which says:
we can safely say about the Heart Sutra is that it is completely crazy. If we read it, it does not make any sense. Well, maybe the beginning and end make sense, but everything in the middle sounds like a sophisticated form of nonsense, which can be said to be the basic feature of the prajfiapilramita siitras in general. I guess I am not the only one.

[Mig]

5 hours ago, Mig said:

I am not sure Yin Yang is a Daoist concept, the idea comes from the Yijing. The constant Dao as in the first line of the DDJ  seems to be close to the idea of permanent. Thanks again, reading what is out there published and reading from someone who had read it and experienced is different and helpful.

一阴一阳之谓道，阴阳五行，这是中国古代最重要的概念。无论皇帝、官员，乃至贩夫走卒，没有不知道『阴阳五行』的。

One Yin and One Yang is called Tao, Yin-Yang and the Five Phases, these are the most important concepts of ancient China. Regardless of emperors, officials and even to the lowest rung of society, there is none who do not know of “Yin-Yang and the Five Phases”.

《周易》中说，一阴一阳之谓道。也就是说，道就是阴阳的变化。

In the I-Chingit says, One Yin and One Yang is called Tao. That is to say, Tao is the transformation of Yin and Yang

[Maddie]

When I find interesting about the heart and diamond sutra's usage in Asia is the way their chanted for magical and spiritual efficacy simply by virtue of the power of the scripture itself. I don't really understand this but at the same time I find the concept fascinating.

Edited December 28, 2020 by dmattwads

[Mig]

On 12/24/2020 at 7:22 AM, dmattwads said:

When I find interesting about the heart and diamond citrus usage in Asia is the way their chanted for magical and spiritual efficacy simply by virtue of the power of the scripture itself. I don't really understand this but at the same time I find the concept fascinating.

I keep reading people recite both sutras without knowing the meaning and most of the translations are good and very good explanations. Truly, a good reading with explanations is necessary.