What is Fear?

[anshino23]

Open discussion.  

 

I'll start with an anecdote. 

 

As my life is setup right now, I work in an emergency department as a doctor. I see all kinds of people there. I face pretty intense situations and have to keep my cool. Throughout my months of taking upon the "doctor" role, I have become more and more confident in these types of situations. At first I held a lot of fear about what would happen and how to handle specific situations, but once you learn it, a lot of that fear disappears. This is not to say that the work cannot still be stressful, in that there's a lot to do and many obligations, lots to manage at the same time, pressures, it can still be depleting, etc. - but I wouldn't use the word fear anymore to describe my feelings toward it. 

 

As I drove home from grocery shopping today with my significant other, I crossed the road turning left, following the rules correctly, looking right and left, seeing a car to my left that blinks to the right, and think "okay, free ahead", and suddenly this guy overtakes the car in front of him about to turn, driving at least 70km/h where you're allowed to drive 50 km/h and has to push the brakes powerfully to avoid colliding into the side of the road.

 

Instead of seeing his own mistake, he turns his car around, drives behind me and flashes the lights multiple times. Drives closer and closer very aggressively. At this point not only my significant other but also myself feel adrenaline rushing into the body and fueling the mind, "what should we do?" "maybe he'll hurt us". The classic fight-and-flight response.

 

We've heard lots of stories around where we live which is close to a ghetto-place where many crazy things unfold. We turn the corner and he's still following aggressively so I decide to drive the car to the side, and he drives up next to me, and I roll down the window slightly. I think as he realises I'm not going to blame him, he simply says "Didn't you see I was coming?", and I just said something like, "It was a very unfortunate incident", and he says, "oh okay, just look next time", he seems to cool his demeanor and then gives a nod and drives away. 

 

Afterwards I'm struck by a deep disappointment in myself. Why was I that afraid? Why did my body and mind react so violently? It did not in any way or form help the situation. There was no point to it. I could've had the same conversation with him, perhaps much better, if I had been in a fearless state of mind. Instead, I was unconfident and afraid and answered him timidly. My significant other said it was overall well done as I defused the situation which could've gone a lot worse if we were unlucky and I had pushed him, as the guy was clearly looking for a fight. Maybe. I still can't help but think that fear ultimately doesn't help and it surely doesn't feel like it's a wise or elevated state to be in either. On the contrary. 

 

So that made me think... what is fear exactly? It disappeared as quickly as it came. But is it just ignorance? Ignorance of the unknown? Or is it rather  all about attachment to life? Being afraid of losing what one has? Or is it instead simply all due to weak "kidneys", and people with strong kidneys never really feel fear like that?  

 

Either way, would be curious to hear people's thoughts.  

 

How does a practictioner approach fear? How does a practictioner eventually overcome it completely? 

[liminal_luke]

I don´t have answers to the questions you´re asking but I never let ignorance get in the way of an opportunity to listen to myself talk -- so here goes.  Fearlessness may be ideal but it´s an ideal that 99.9% of us will not reach so I hope you don´t give yourself a hard time for reacting in a way you judge to have been suboptimal.  Sounds like your encounter went OK but there was a realistic risk that it might not have gone OK.  One doesn´t know, at least not in advance, and it´s the not knowing that´s scary for most of us, including me.

 

You bring up two possibilities with respect to fear: the state of our kidney energy and issues related to wisdom/attachment/ignorance.  It occurs to me that these two might be two sides of a single coin.  Could it be that a hallmark of strong kidney energy is wisdom and the ability to appropriately let go?  Here´s an interesting piece by an acupuncturist entitled Wisdom -- The Virtue of the Kidneys.

 

https://robertkellerlac.com/wisdom-the-virtue-of-the-kidneys/

[natural]

I doubt that one can or even should ever overcome fear completely.

I think it would be ignorant not to feel fear from time to time, in particular in new situations.

You correctly described the fight or flight response to external stimuli not anticipated.

After a rush of adrenaline I would expect some introspection, questioning what happened as well as how I reacted, versus how I wished I would have responded.

The adrenaline allows for quick reactions, not so much thoughtful action.

 

Was walking along with my dog and a lady friend when 2 other dogs started to attack my dog. I dropped the leash and got the hell out of the way as fast as I could. Then suddenly I was among the dogs with  a huge branch. I have no idea how I found the branch or that I could yell stop with that much Authority. Once the dogs separated and I calmed down I wondered what had happened, why did I react / behave as I did? Lady friend said I did well, I wasn't so sure. 

 

Started stopping to look for external appreciation after that... still struggle with external appreciation... and keep an eye wide open when walking now, mostly with a big stick, lol.

Ymmv.

 

[helpfuldemon]

Fear is a response to danger, it should be that simple.  We do not want pain or debilitation, or anything detrimental to our natural order.

[Spaceofawareness]

I am wondering, were you lost in the fear, or did you remain present? I assume the latter, as you had the presence of mind to defuse the situation and not become reactive. Overall I’d say it was wise.

 

When fear responses kick in, everything naturally becomes heightened, and our focus narrows naturally. Nature chooses for us, whether we can remain calm and collected or whether the bodies natural defences take over, but it seems altogether you remained true.

[anshino23]

19 minutes ago, Spaceofawareness said:

I am wondering, were you lost in the fear, or did you remain present? I assume the latter, as you had the presence of mind to defuse the situation and not become reactive. Overall I’d say it was wise.

 

But even if I was still present, the very presence of the fear made me reactive as a habitual response to fear, which was a submissive type response. Rather than simply being there and answering him plainly, I answered timidly and with fear. This is what I neither enjoy nor felt was wise or expressed from a higher more wise aspect of myself. 

 

On the other hand perhaps me responding submissively was what was needed to defuse the situation and as such the higher aspect did unfold exactly as it should. I just feel like there was a lesson here and I didn't face the situation with fearlessness when I could have, ultimately fear being a sign of distrust in the Dao. Anyway, maybe I'm just reading too much into it...  

 

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. 

[Maddie]

2 hours ago, anshino23 said:

Open discussion.  

 

I'll start with an anecdote. 

 

As my life is setup right now, I work in an emergency department as a doctor. I see all kinds of people there. I face pretty intense situations and have to keep my cool. Throughout my months of taking upon the "doctor" role, I have become more and more confident in these types of situations. At first I held a lot of fear about what would happen and how to handle specific situations, but once you learn it, a lot of that fear disappears. This is not to say that the work cannot still be stressful, in that there's a lot to do and many obligations, lots to manage at the same time, pressures, it can still be depleting, etc. - but I wouldn't use the word fear anymore to describe my feelings toward it. 

 

As I drove home from grocery shopping today with my significant other, I crossed the road turning left, following the rules correctly, looking right and left, seeing a car to my left that blinks to the right, and think "okay, free ahead", and suddenly this guy overtakes the car in front of him about to turn, driving at least 70km/h where you're allowed to drive 50 km/h and has to push the brakes powerfully to avoid colliding into the side of the road.

 

Instead of seeing his own mistake, he turns his car around, drives behind me and flashes the lights multiple times. Drives closer and closer very aggressively. At this point not only my significant other but also myself feel adrenaline rushing into the body and fueling the mind, "what should we do?" "maybe he'll hurt us". The classic fight-and-flight response.

 

We've heard lots of stories around where we live which is close to a ghetto-place where many crazy things unfold. We turn the corner and he's still following aggressively so I decide to drive the car to the side, and he drives up next to me, and I roll down the window slightly. I think as he realises I'm not going to blame him, he simply says "Didn't you see I was coming?", and I just said something like, "It was a very unfortunate incident", and he says, "oh okay, just look next time", he seems to cool his demeanor and then gives a nod and drives away. 

 

Afterwards I'm struck by a deep disappointment in myself. Why was I that afraid? Why did my body and mind react so violently? It did not in any way or form help the situation. There was no point to it. I could've had the same conversation with him, perhaps much better, if I had been in a fearless state of mind. Instead, I was unconfident and afraid and answered him timidly. My significant other said it was overall well done as I defused the situation which could've gone a lot worse if we were unlucky and I had pushed him, as the guy was clearly looking for a fight. Maybe. I still can't help but think that fear ultimately doesn't help and it surely doesn't feel like it's a wise or elevated state to be in either. On the contrary. 

 

So that made me think... what is fear exactly? It disappeared as quickly as it came. But is it just ignorance? Ignorance of the unknown? Or is it rather  all about attachment to life? Being afraid of losing what one has? Or is it instead simply all due to weak "kidneys", and people with strong kidneys never really feel fear like that?  

 

Either way, would be curious to hear people's thoughts.  

 

How does a practictioner approach fear? How does a practictioner eventually overcome it completely? 

 

I have often pondered the same question, and this is so far the best I have come up with.

 

The Buddha said that there are basically two driving forces within the mind, desire and aversion which is just anti-desire.

 

Desire is to get the things we want.

 

Aversion is to not have the things we don't want.

 

Fear is a derivative of aversion. It is ultimately and basically someone we don't want, and it is usually the type of aversion that is averse to something bad happening to us. Anger on the other hand is the type of aversion usually of having a plan not go our way or feeling an attack on our perceived notion of our "self"

 

Fear is the aversion to bad things happening to us. We perceive someone might hurt us or take what belongs to us and we "fear" this. We don't want the self to be hurt or suffer loss and this aversion to these events is what we call fear.

 

One of the titles of the Buddha is called the "fearless" one, as he had overcome all notions and attachments to a false self.

 

 

[anshino23]

1 hour ago, natural said:

I doubt that one can or even should ever overcome fear completely.

 

From my perspective, if there is fear, there is unknowing. If there is unknowing, there is darkness, and thus a lack of en-"light"-enment. Simile aside, I don't think an enlightened master would ever be afraid. If he or she was, I would not consider them enlightened. Maybe I just have very high standards? 

[Sketch]

I was alone in the Lake District. Hiking in northern England.  The day had been fine and clear , my spirits were high. I was walking a knife edge ridge, and the sky to the west began to darken. Rapidly. I decided to head over the ridge and down, push the half hour or so on to the valley bottom on the other side. Curls of fog filtered over the rocks. A dark stripe crossed the sky. As I reached the pass, two hikers came out of the growing fog and informed me that visibility was poor on the other side, a wind rising and weather coming in fast over steep rocks and slippery footing.

 

 

My legs turned wishy washy. If the couple hadn't appeared at just that moment I'd have committed myself to a dangerous descent in the tired part of the day. 

 

Meekly I followed them down the mountain to a campsite. When the wind came over the hill it knocked my tent flat to the ground repeatedly. Just me and my shaking fear in the tent. I had never had so little trust in my own judgment. 

Edited December 29, 2020 by Sketch

[dwai]

Fear is essentially the fear of death. All kinds of fear borrows from that underlying knowledge that we are going to die. 
 

[anshino23]

1 minute ago, dwai said:

Fear is essentially the fear of death. All kinds of fear borrows from that underlying knowledge that we are going to die. 

 

This begs the question - how then do you "die before you die"?  

[dwai]

4 minutes ago, anshino23 said:

 

This begs the question - how then do you "die before you die"?  

That's a very pertinent question indeed ...to answer that, we must ask "Who is it that dies?"

[Maddie]

As far as what to actually do about it I've always found mindfulness to be one of the most effective techniques. Observe, explore.

 

Where do you feel the fear?

 

When you find where, what does the feeling actually feel like?

 

Observe the feeling and separate it from what you consider to be "yourself" and think of it as just a feeling, as just a type of energy.

 

Pay attention to "what is this, what is it?"

[Sketch]

Fear has different flavors; times I though there was a strong chance of immanent violence were very specific, tunnel vision and pulsing in my guts followed by the same horrible adrenaline nausea each time.

Edited December 29, 2020 by Sketch

[Limahong]

2 hours ago, anshino23 said:

How does a practitioner approach fear? How does a practitioner eventually overcome it completely?

 

Hi anshino23,

 

A practitioner is always in practice? We learn while we practise? So we learn to embrace fear in living/practising forward?  

 

I don't want to be completely fearless because then I will have nothing left to learn...

 

 

27 minutes ago, anshino23 said:

I don't think an enlightened master would ever be afraid.

 

In facing and overcoming fears,

A master shed ~ invisible tears?

 

 

20 minutes ago, anshino23 said:

This begs the question - how then do you "die before you die"?

 

By overcoming your fear ~ you are less likely to "die".

 

Keep on practising but don't rush...

 

 

 

 

- Anand

 

 

[Limahong]

2 hours ago, natural said:

I have no idea how I found the branch or that I could yell stop with that much Authority.

 

Hi natural,

 

The Almighty had a hand with the branch and Authority?  

 

-  Anand

 

 

[Bindi]

If there is an overwhelming childhood fear that hasn’t been dealt with, then every fear reaction currently will be informed by the early fear. A child’s fear response is made without a fully developed frontal brain of course, so it’s unlikely to be a mature and reasonable response, but it remains as the ‘blueprint’ for all current and future fear situations until it is resolved. Personally I would regard finding and facing childhood fear to be the start of the journey towards authentic mental health.

[idiot_stimpy]

18 hours ago, dwai said:

Fear is essentially the fear of death. All kinds of fear borrows from that underlying knowledge that we are going to die. 
 

 

I like this line of reasoning. 

 

If we are dreaming and know everything is a dream and cannot hurt us, is there still fear?

 

I would say fear stems from attachment. 

 

If we do not have an attachment to something, is there any fear involved if that thing is compromised.

[C T]

Is it really a fear of something, or simply fear as a fetter in terms of potentiality?  

 

Its easier to work the latter. 

 

When duality can be resolved, fear is no more. 

It is dualistic views that breed fear's potential. 

[dwai]

26 minutes ago, idiot_stimpy said:

 

I like this line of reasoning. 

 

If we are dreaming and know everything is a dream and cannot hurt us, is there still fear?

 

I would say fear stems from attachment. 

 

If we do not have an attachment to something, is there any fear involved if that thing is compromised.

What is attachment? Isn’t it a fear of losing something? What is a human being’s greatest fear? Loss of existence, is it not? 
 

The veiled mind is always in fear of its demise. 

[ilumairen]

15 minutes ago, idiot_stimpy said:

 

I like this line of reasoning. 

 

If we are dreaming and know everything is a dream and cannot hurt us, is there still fear?

 

I would say fear stems from attachment. 

 

If we do not have an attachment to something, is there any fear involved if that thing is compromised.

Perhaps it becomes more curiosity.

 

A very long time ago I experienced something similar to anshino. In my story it involved a very large man on a Harley who pulled out in front of my car, and then proceeded to ride parallel to me a block up from the road I had turned on to go home. I stopped. He caught up, and proceeded to “let me have it” - while I sat there gazing at him. Eventually he stopped, and I said something along the lines of, “you should probably stop pulling out in front of moving vehicles if you don’t want to get hit by one.” And added something about how he was just lucky I was paying attention and could avoid hitting him. At first he looked a bit flabbergasted and more pissed. Then he shook his head, laughed, and rode away.

 

BTW This body certainly can be hurt, and sometimes in lasting ways. Some of those pains can push one into finding what is sometimes referred to as the inner refuge - the “place” within that can’t be harmed. And this naturally “changes things.”

[Taomeow]

Every natural emotional response has its range, from the unhealthy "not enough" to the unhealthy "too much," with a healthy, appropriate "just the right amount" in between.  I knew people who got killed by their fearlessness. One of them actually had had some brain trauma early in life that damaged the normal connections between the amygdala and the rest of the brain.  As a result, he couldn't feel fear if he tried.  On the other end of the spectrum are early and/or severe abuse victims who fear everything, because their experience has taught them that everything is a threat and anything and anybody can inflict pain and suffering.        

 

On that spectrum between "not enough" and "too much" lies the normal range of fear commensurate with the situation, and clarity needed to address that situation.

 

Once I was practicing taiji in the park with three classmates, and after the practice we sat at the table underneath a very tall and mighty, but old and visibly suffering from years of the drought, eucalyptus tree, talking and resting.  All of a sudden all four of us jumped up and took off running at supersonic speed.  I couldn't tell who was the first to react and what they reacted to -- it may have been me, or the reaction may have been simultaneous, or someone followed the cue from someone else.  I only knew my legs sprung into action before I knew why  and I scrambled away from that spot like a suddenly spooked cat.  In the next second, a humongous branch that broke off from somewhere high in that tree fell smack where we had been sitting a second ago.  

 

Did it start creaking while cracking?  Did we react to that sound before the neocortex registered it?  Would people not trained in taiji applications (which require instant unthinking reactions in some situations) get smacked in the head with that branch?  Who knows.  All I know is, what kicked in was life-saving fear -- act on the danger first, analyze its extent later, when you're out of its immediate  range.  

 

Wish that it was this simple in every situation.  The tree branch situation struck me (thankfully, the situation, not the branch) as very healthy.  We were momentarily spooked -- then relieved and cheerful, proud of our prowess and refreshed with a sense of renewed energy.     

 

 

[freeform]

 

The Zhi - the kidney spirit is indeed associated with the fears connected with survival...

 

In the case you've described, @anshino23, it seems to have done a pretty good job

 

But fear is not the only thing that happened...

 

What's interesting is that you're frustrated that you reacted submissively.

 

This is another thing altogether - this is coming from your Hun, which is in charge of knowing your place in relation to others (for instance your social position in a hierarchy)...

 

 

[anshino23]

5 minutes ago, freeform said:

What's interesting is that you're frustrated that you reacted submissively.

 

This is another thing altogether - this is coming from your Hun, which is in charge of knowing your place in relation to others (for instance your social position in a hierarchy)...

 

Very interesting, thank you. I'll have to contemplate this for a bit.

 

If I'm understanding it correctly, the five spirits (Shen, Hun, Yi, Po, Zhi) comprise the acquired self, and if the five movements of these spirits were ever to become fully harmonised, they would reconverge, and the Yuan Shen would unify - leading to Wu, the Awakening. Is that your understanding too?

 

 

[liminal_luke]

45 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

Every natural emotional response has its range, from the unhealthy "not enough" to the unhealthy "too much," with a healthy, appropriate "just the right amount" in between.  I knew people who got killed by their fearlessness. One of them actually had had some brain trauma early in life that damaged the normal connections between the amygdala and the rest of the brain.  As a result, he couldn't feel fear if he tried.  On the other end of the spectrum are early and/or severe abuse victims who fear everything, because their experience has taught them that everything is a threat and anything and anybody can inflict pain and suffering.        

 

On that spectrum between "not enough" and "too much" lies the normal range of fear commensurate with the situation, and clarity needed to address that situation.

 

 

I´m interested in staying alive and if a situation-commensurate degree of fear will help me with this goal I´m all for it.  Still, I have heard mention of a positive kind of high-functioning fearlessness that some people develop as a result of spiritual practice.  Is it possible to act "as if" afraid -- to run from the falling branch, to avoid touching the hot burner -- without actually feeling fear as most of us know it?

Edited December 30, 2020 by liminal_luke