What is courage?

[sagebrush]

2 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

If you don’t want others in your mind space (what I think you’re referring to), then stop carrying them around in your mind space. 

this is the circus wheel...

 

I dont need to clarify space--- tangential bullshit

 

 

[sagebrush]

wait- there was once a bee like feeling for days in my rectum. like almost unnoticeable until I sat down and noticed it

 

do you think this is the bug that was going to crawl up my neck?

 

i really figured it was frazzled rectal tissue. never happened again

 

is this a little toy you need? I am serious

[dwai]

18 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

The fear of nonexistence is a very minor issue compared to some other possible reasons for fear.  The universe has way scarier stuff to fear, believe me.  Dropping the fear of nonexistence doesn't begin to make a dent.  

The biggest fear is that of non-existence. What can be more frightening than that? Everything else is a derivative thereof. 

18 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

Fear can't be "dropped" based on a belief that it "should" be dropped.  This only accomplishes counterphobic ideation and/or behavior, not true courage.  Counterphobic=dishonest.  Dishonest=fearful of truth.  Fearful of truth=devoid of wisdom.  Devoid of wisdom=devoid of courage. 

Of course it won't drop based on a belief. But it WILL drop based on realization  

18 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

Also sprach Taomeow.       

 

[dwai]

10 minutes ago, sagebrush said:

wait- there was once a bee like feeling for days in my rectum. like almost unnoticeable until I sat down and noticed it

 

do you think this is the bug that was going to crawl up my neck?

 

i really figured it was frazzled rectal tissue. never happened again

 

is this a little toy you need? I am serious

[sagebrush]

21 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

If you don’t want others in your mind space (what I think you’re referring to), then stop carrying them around in your mind space. 

this is the circus wheel...

 

I dont need to clarify space--- tangential bullshit

 

 

[sagebrush]

I dont have pinworms.

 

yes words mean suffering

[sagebrush]

10 minutes ago, dwai said:

Also sprach Taomeow

sprach NIN too

[Cleansox]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

 So who is more stupid? The one who cowers in fear or one who is not afraid?  

Sun Tzu doesn't say that courage is the absence of fear. 

You did. 

Not does he say that someone who feels fear cowers. 

(At least not in that section.) 

[ilumairen]

Just now, dwai said:

The biggest fear is that of non-existence.

 

Nope, not for everyone. I made peace with this self not existing as a child..

 

”If the dreamer (a divine being not myself) awakes, all of this (the entirety of the world I knew, including this self) will cease to be..”

 

Which settled easily and quite comfortably into, “it honestly wouldn’t matter to the then non-existent “me” anyway.” 
 

Hence - non-existence isn’t something to feel any angst about at all.

 

Just now, dwai said:

What can be more frightening than that?
 

 

As a child I was much more afraid of “eternity.”
 

I still don’t like the idea of it, and actually find it rather a yucky proposition.

 

 

Just now, dwai said:

Everything else is a derivative thereof. 
 

 

From your perspective... 

 

Just now, dwai said:

Of course it won't drop based on a belief. But it WILL drop based on realization  

 

 

[sagebrush]

1 hour ago, Wilhelm said:

A. Out of their depth

 

B. Smart enough to know it

 

C. Not going to stop despite A & B 

 

I am out of my depth to a degree

I am smart enough to know it

however----

 

who typed that cannot possibly know beyond their own knowing!

 

that is a fact. 

 

all your teachers and your teachers teachers all the books---

 

there is way the hell more beyond your very own limited knowing.

 

 

[Taomeow]

14 minutes ago, dwai said:

The biggest fear is that of non-existence. What can be more frightening than that?

 

I guess you've never been a mother.  (Not in this lifetime anyway. )    

[ilumairen]

7 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

I guess you've never been a mother.  (Not in this lifetime anyway. )    

Or a daughter..

 

My biggest fears during childhood revolved around the health and safety of my own mother (certainly not in a who will care for us sort of way), and my younger siblings (whose health and safety my mother’s lack of mental health could, and often did, threaten).

 

TM, have you ever thought that all this spiritual stuff is very very different for men and women?

[Taomeow]

22 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

TM, have you ever thought that all this spiritual stuff is very very different for men and women?

 

Oh yes.  

[freeform]

Courage is the virtue of the Po - the lung spirit... The Po is mainly preoccupied with sadness or grief - and attachment to things and aspects of the acquired mind.

 

Fear is the main preoccupation of the Zhi - the kidney spirit... Who’s virtue (as a result of transforming its survival fear) is Wisdom - as @Taomeow says.

 

Which is interesting...

 

 

[Wilhelm]

8 minutes ago, freeform said:

Courage is the virtue of the Po - the lung spirit... The Po is mainly preoccupied with sadness or grief - and attachment to things and aspects of the acquired mind.

 

Fear is the main preoccupation of the Zhi - the kidney spirit... Who’s virtue (as a result of transforming its survival fear) is Wisdom - as @Taomeow says.

 

Which is interesting...

 

 

That's a weird one to wrap your head around, isn't it?

 

Could it be said that fear is a de-evolution of wisdom, then?  Like when we lose wisdom we experience fear (and same for courage -> grief)?  

 

Since you're talking 5 element theory, I imagine it's not ideal to isolate one or two aspect like that.

[Taomeow]

3 minutes ago, freeform said:

Courage is the virtue of the Po - the lung spirit... The Po is mainly preoccupied with sadness or grief - and attachment to things and aspects of the acquired mind.

 

 

I wouldn't say it's "mainly preoccupied with sadness and grief" -- only when it's thwarted by a disharmony.  A healthy Po is chiefly preoccupied with basic spontaneous aliveness.  I like to think of it as an instinctual drive toward being/staying alive, something we share with all life forms on Earth. 

 

Po is my favorite shen.  I totally grok it.  It's the least convoluted, the most straightforwardly honest one.  And it is also the most vulnerable one -- unlike other shens, it is not eternal, its existence ends with the demise of the physical body.  So it does make sense that it is the seat of courage -- aliveness is an act of courage, especially fragile temporally-limited biological aliveness.  I also believe aliveness is an act of supreme wisdom...  unless it's wiser/nobler/more courageous to surrender it to something bigger.  Not just bigger but "with absolute assurance that it is bigger" -- otherwise it is an act of stupidity if Po sacrifices its natural drive toward being/staying alive  to an erroneous or unworthy cause.

 

13 minutes ago, freeform said:

Fear is the main preoccupation of the Zhi - the kidney spirit... Who’s virtue (as a result of transforming its survival fear) is Wisdom - as @Taomeow says.

 

Which is interesting...

 

    

I think the same applies here -- fear is the main preoccupation of Zhi that is not harmonious -- in this state its true virtue, wisdom, is impeded.  Wisdom is Zhi's natural state when there's no disharmony.

 

Zhi is a double shen, with yang Zhi manifesting the immediate current states and yin Zhi hiding the long-term "designs of destiny."  Yin Zhi can see into the past and the future -- and so it is wise with a kind of wisdom that is not immediately obvious and can often be understood only in hindsight: "Oh...  that's why such and such happened 'like this':  it happened toward 'that.'  Now I understand.  It was meant to be."  When it is harmonious, the past, present and future are also harmonious and can be perceived simultaneously.  But that's not where we're at...  so "designs of destiny" are largely hidden from us.

 

(Which is a situation genuine diviners, spirit readers and fortune tellers are trained to remedy, to the extent possible.  ) 

[Geof Nanto]

16 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

From a Jungian interpretive perspective, this picture reveals how the ego of the artist feels in relation to its shadow. And the ego is in a very precarious position indeed. 

 

It takes great courage to confront the totality of oneself rather than to continually project the shadow into the outer world. Without at least an inkling of such acceptance there can be no basis for any real compassion and humility about what it means to be human.
 

[thelerner]

I like to try for 'Never afraid, always cautious..'  but it doesn't always work.  

 

I don't think it's the in-your-face violence that's pulled me down, rather the chances not taken.  The lack of courage to take harder paths.  

[freeform]

1 hour ago, Taomeow said:

wouldn't say it's "mainly preoccupied with sadness and grief" -- only when it's thwarted by a disharmony.

Yeah there are many nuances - and slightly different perspectives depending on the specific tradition within alchemical Daoism.

 

When I say ‘preoccupied’ I mean to communicate action...

 

In our tradition, when the elements are in motion they exemplify what one could call their ‘negative’ attributes (though I don’t necessarily see them negatively).

 

When they’re brought to stillness they generate their respective Virtue as a quality (rather than an action)... So when the Po is still the virtue of courage or uprightness becomes a pervading state (you don’t feel courageous as a reaction to something - you are courageous as an underlying quality of who you are). This is a rare transformation - and not considered as something an uncultivated person would be able to achieve.

 

When talking of ‘harmony’ there’s a connotation of harmonious movement... When the Po is functioning harmoniously (in normal, healthy non-cultivators) between its Yin and Yang manifestation within the body-mind (within the lungs and large intestines) - there is a balance between its Yang emotional aspects (sadness, grief - within the lung system) and Yin cognitive aspects (letting go - governed by the large intestine system)...

 

So a healthy, harmonious function of the Po in my tradition is considered as a smooth relationship between grief (as a result of loss) and the act of letting go (of the thing one lost)...

 

Similarly the Zhi acts through the kidneys as a Yang emotional movement and is preoccupied with survival fear/anxiety... and is balanced by the Yin cognitive aspect through the bladder - and that manifests as a sort of self confidence...

 

So a harmonious Zhi would for instance react to something like being fired and losing ones income with fear... and then this would quickly move through and be balanced by self-confidence (now I can get a better job!)

 

The De of wisdom in my tradition does not figure in the normal functioning of the Zhi - but only when it is brought to stillness through practices like Xin Zhai (heart-mind fasting).

 

The manifestation of De are a very substantial change from how our emotions and inner worlds work... The biggest difference is stability and non-reactivity... so someone who has achieved De does not have ‘good days’ and ‘bad days’ - their inner world is stable and constant. There’s no reflexive reaction to stimuli - just a constant underlying quality.

 

The manifestation of the De each have a specific physiological change that happens. So there are several tests to see if the De has fully manifested and stabilised (my tradition strongly emphasises discernment and guards against delusion - so most inner experiences are not treated as particularly important and noteworthy until they clearly impact on every level of the person.)

 

I should add that there are certainly glimpses of each of the De in people... usually these are glimpsed beneath the movement and turmoil of the movement of emotion... But to become a true Virtue, the very functioning of the refracted light of the yuan shen (as it manifests as the 5 elements) goes through a paradigm shift.

Edited January 2, 2021 by freeform

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, sagebrush said:

I am out of my depth to a degree

I am smart enough to know it

however----

 

You left out C

 

' C. Not going to stop despite A & B '

 

 

2 hours ago, sagebrush said:

who typed that cannot possibly know beyond their own knowing!

 

that is a fact. 

 

all your teachers and your teachers teachers all the books---

 

there is way the hell more beyond your very own limited knowing.

 

 

 

 

You left out C

 

[Nungali]

Courage

 

To suffer woes which Hope thinks infinite;
To forgive wrongs darker than death or night;
To defy Power, which seems omnipotent;
To love, and bear; to hope till Hope creates
From its own wreck the thing it contemplates;
Neither to change, nor falter, nor repent;
This, like thy glory, Titan, is to be
Good, great and joyous, beautiful and free;
This is alone Life, Joy, Empire, and Victory!

[dwai]

3 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

I guess you've never been a mother.  (Not in this lifetime anyway. )    

I’m a father, if that counts.  

The fear for someone, especially an offspring, is also rooted in fear of death. Children are, what is considered the greatest immortality projects, by some thinkers — the logic being, we live through our offspring, and so on. 

 

Please don’t consider what I’m writing here as in any way intended to insult or hurt feelings — I’m being pragmatic about the topic. 

[dwai]

3 hours ago, ilumairen said:

 

Nope, not for everyone. I made peace with this self not existing as a child..

And who was that “I”?  

3 hours ago, ilumairen said:

”If the dreamer (a divine being not myself) awakes, all of this (the entirety of the world I knew, including this self) will cease to be..”

 

Which settled easily and quite comfortably into, “it honestly wouldn’t matter to the then non-existent “me” anyway.” 
 

Hence - non-existence isn’t something to feel any angst about at all.

I think you are an exception to the norm. Most people in the world are very much afraid of non-existence. That’s why we see all the ego-driven nonsense all around us. Wars, etc etc.

 

3 hours ago, ilumairen said:

As a child I was much more afraid of “eternity.”
 

I still don’t like the idea of it, and actually find it rather a yucky proposition.

 

 

From your perspective... 

 

 

 who would consider “eternity” as “yucky” if there were no self? 

[ilumairen]

6 minutes ago, dwai said:

And who was that “I”?  
 

Yeah.. that reply is soo very “you.”

 

Quote

I think you are an exception to the norm. Most people in the world are very much afraid of non-existence. That’s why we see all the ego-driven nonsense all around us. Wars, etc etc.

 

 who would consider “eternity” as “yucky” if there were no self? 

It is yucky as a theoretical proposition, and for the life of me I have never been able to work out to my own satisfaction why anyone would find comfort in the idea - being left to simply accept that they do.

 

Eternity, if I could actually find the passage in the (presumably Catholic) bible, is said to be something along the lines of being completely lost (dissolved) in the joy of singing God’s praise.. holy, holy holy...

 

I didn’t care for that upon further exploration, and theorized numerous other scenarios, all of which ended with the same “ewww” after the passage of millennia. 
 

Edited January 2, 2021 by ilumairen

[freeform]

10 minutes ago, dwai said:

I think you are an exception to the norm.

Who is the I that thinks this? 
 

(joking! 😜)

 

10 minutes ago, dwai said:

Most people in the world are very much afraid of non-existence.

Not in my experience... I’ve known people for whom the idea of non-existence is comforting... they’re more afraid of pain - mental, emotional and so on. 
 

If non-existence was the main fear you wouldn’t see the many thousands of atheists opting for euthanasia for instance...

Edited January 2, 2021 by freeform