We have a vaccine!

[Toni]

So now that we have (at least) one vaccine for COVID, and I mean specifically the Pfizer vaccine, what is your opinion about this? For me this is just a good business for Pfizer and for nobody else. This will cure nothing, but maybe it will hurt some people, as it is already happening. I guess most of you have seen the video of a nurse collapsing after the first shot.

 

I think all of this is a very big lie, and one of the reasons behind the lie is the huge profit that the big pharma companies will make.

 

Update: a healthy american doctor dies after taking the vaccine

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9119431/Miami-doctor-58-dies-three-weeks-receiving-Pfizer-Covid-19-vaccine.html

Edited January 8, 2021 by Toni

[thelerner]

As an investor, Pfizer stock was about 40, twenty years ago (ie hit 45 in yr 2000).  Today, it's about 37.  The market has not been kind to the stock or its long-term investors.  This year it went up briefly to about 43 on news of the vaccine's approval but dropped down.  If one had invested in an index fund, one would have doubled, maybe tripled their money but Pfizer has been a dog of a stock.

 

The vaccine will earn it billions, but it's such a big company that its usual problems mean that won't be a huge influence on it.  With millions of doses coming out, there will be some small fraction of bad effects, I don't consider fainting to be that bad, (I'm looking for patterns of anaphylactic shock),  but imo the vaccine is the path to getting back to normal and ending the deaths and great devastation, ie lung, kidney, long term damage done by Covid.  

 

From my research, I'll get in line when its available.  I want to see my Dad, who's 86 and would not want to accidentally give him a disease that is preventable.

[RiverSnake]

I am more in favor of natural remedies (Vitamin D, Zinc...etc) and strengthening ones immune system (foods, fasting, exercise....etc) than hastily developed vaccines. 

[Paradoxal]

1 hour ago, RiverSnake said:

I am more in favor of natural remedies (Vitamin D, Zinc...etc) and strengthening ones immune system (foods, fasting, exercise....etc) than hastily developed vaccines. 

As one with quite a bit of faith in my own abilities, as well as my survivability of most diseases, I would say that this view is indisputably foolish and potentially dangerous. I am not the person that getting the vaccine would save, rather, my elderly mother or grandmother would be. My friends who are not as fortunate or healthy as I would be the ones saved by this vaccine. We never eradicated smallpox or polio with natural remedies. Natural remedies have their place, and they can be incredibly helpful, but they are not the tool for this particular job. As for strengthening one's immune system, that precisely is what a vaccine does. It gives you specific immunity against a specific illness, and can be used to create herd immunity to prevent said illness from spreading to the young, immunocompromised, or elderly. 

 

With that little spiel out of the way, there is one particular caution that I can see sense in with this vaccine: the quality of the vaccine itself. I will openly admit that I am not a medically trained doctor, nor am I an accredited scientist in a field working on vaccine development. I don't know how long vaccines usually stay in development, so it's fair to be cautious about potentially rushed jobs. That said, the yearly flu vaccine has to be remade each year to account for new potential strains of said flu, so I can certainly see a competent vaccine being made within the time we have had with C19.

 

As far as I'm concerned with what I have seen so far (emphasis on "so far"), I would get the vaccine as soon as it's available to me. I think that those working in high risk fields need it first, followed by high risk individuals, so it should still be awhile before it becomes available to me, but I see this as the way we get out of this pandemic. We're incredibly fortunate that such a vaccine has already been developed and I feel that we should be much more thankful for it than we are.

[thelerner]

2 hours ago, RiverSnake said:

I am more in favor of natural remedies (Vitamin D, Zinc...etc) and strengthening ones immune system (foods, fasting, exercise....etc) than hastily developed vaccines. 

Definitely agree with doing what we can.  I'm taking Vitamin D twice a day, Zinc & C lozenges, even a Chinese formula.  Exercise, diet, fresh air, long walks.. all good.

 

This weekend hosted 2 couples outside, for drinks, one's mom died of Covid two weeks ago.  A few days ago 3,600 people died of Covid in a single day.  A friend's wife who's a nurse, says intensive care is a war zone.  It's not just death, there's alot of long term disability (kidney, lung) that happens because of it.  Which you don't see in the flu.  Seems to me we shouldn't wait until this hits home.  

 

I understand caution, double checking things.. but the tragedy of the modern world is we have much more available information but there's so much we can only listen to sources that confirm our bias's.  This disease is serious enough that it makes sense to listen to real experts.  With luck we'll get through this by the end of the year.  

 

However, if enough people don't take the vaccine, I expect we'll see certain groups with more death, long term liver/kidney/lung damage and elderly loved ones dead unnecessarily.  

 

<I also realize this is a very emotionally charged issue and that everyone is doing their best>

 

 

[Michael Sternbach]

 

Cheers

 

Michael

Edited January 3, 2021 by Michael Sternbach

[sagebrush]

1 hour ago, thelerner said:

This disease is serious enough that it makes sense to listen to real experts.  With luck we'll get through this by the end of the yea

Well I have to disagree on that first sentence especially.

 

We have to listen to real experts. Real experts years ago mentioned in tv advertising and magazines that smoking was healthy and that more doctors preferred whatever brand I cant remember from documentary I watched. 

 

I disagree with everyone is doing their best. I am not finger pointing at my neighbor but I was shocked to see him at the store today.

 

I was house sitting for them and received a text they were returning early because coronavirus. eventually they texted again that they were visiting the daughter and she got the coronavirus.

 

So they said to me they were coming home to quarantine for 12 days. Would get tested Monday or Tuesday.

 

I offered to shop for them and drop grocery at the step.

 

Then today I see the neighbor in the store.

 

I dont think he was doing his best.

 

Why do you suppose he did not take me up on my offer to pick up the groceries?

 

 

wondering if I would take vaccine? Its not available at this moment to have to make the choice.

Edited January 3, 2021 by sagebrush

[Bindi]

2 hours ago, Paradoxal said:

As one with quite a bit of faith in my own abilities, as well as my survivability of most diseases, I would say that this view is indisputably foolish and potentially dangerous. I am not the person that getting the vaccine would save, rather, my elderly mother or grandmother would be. My friends who are not as fortunate or healthy as I would be the ones saved by this vaccine. We never eradicated smallpox or polio with natural remedies. Natural remedies have their place, and they can be incredibly helpful, but they are not the tool for this particular job. As for strengthening one's immune system, that precisely is what a vaccine does. It gives you specific immunity against a specific illness, and can be used to create herd immunity to prevent said illness from spreading to the young, immunocompromised, or elderly. 

My mother worked with polio patients, when a vaccine was developed she was first in line to get her own kids vaccinated. Seeing the horror of it first hand no sane parent wouldn’t have. When I had my first child in an area rife with whooping cough I was myself unsure about whether to vaccinate my child, as I had heard all the anti-vaccine talk that has been around for a few decades. When I talked to a nurse at the hospital about my concerns, she told me about the unvaccinated babies that come in with whooping cough, how they struggle to breathe and sometimes die, so I vaccinated my child. There does seem to be a mass suspicion of vaccines, not for medical reasons but because of conspiracy theory thinking, which is very likely to affect the course of this current virus for some years to come. 

 

Quote

 

With that little spiel out of the way, there is one particular caution that I can see sense in with this vaccine: the quality of the vaccine itself. I will openly admit that I am not a medically trained doctor, nor am I an accredited scientist in a field working on vaccine development. I don't know how long vaccines usually stay in development, so it's fair to be cautious about potentially rushed jobs. That said, the yearly flu vaccine has to be remade each year to account for new potential strains of said flu, so I can certainly see a competent vaccine being made within the time we have had with C19.

 

As far as I'm concerned with what I have seen so far (emphasis on "so far"), I would get the vaccine as soon as it's available to me. I think that those working in high risk fields need it first, followed by high risk individuals, so it should still be awhile before it becomes available to me, but I see this as the way we get out of this pandemic. We're incredibly fortunate that such a vaccine has already been developed and I feel that we should be much more thankful for it than we are.

 

[Michael Sternbach]

9 minutes ago, Bindi said:

My mother worked with polio patients, when a vaccine was developed she was first in line to get her own kids vaccinated. Seeing the horror of it first hand no sane parent wouldn’t have. When I had my first child in an area rife with whooping cough I was myself unsure about whether to vaccinate my child, as I had heard all the anti-vaccine talk that has been around for a few decades. When I talked to a nurse at the hospital about my concerns, she told me about the unvaccinated babies that come in with whooping cough, how they struggle to breathe and sometimes die, so I vaccinated my child.

 

What a bitch you got involved with...

 

9 minutes ago, Bindi said:

There does seem to be a mass suspicion of vaccines, not for medical reasons but because of conspiracy theory thinking, which is very likely to affect the course of this current virus for some years to come. 

 

 

 

For better or worse, the choice is yours...

 

I like you, Bindi, so I hope you will make the right choice.

 

Wish you best,

 

Michael

[Bindi]

5 hours ago, Toni said:

So now that we have (at least) one vaccine for COVID, and I mean specifically the Pfizer vaccine, what is your opinion about this? For me this is just a good business for Pfizer and for nobody else. This will cure nothing, but maybe it will hurt some people, as it is already happening. I guess most of you have seen the video of a nurse collapsing after the first shot.

 

I think all of this is a very big lie, and one of the reasons behind the lie is the huge profit that the big pharma companies will make.

 

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/health-problems/nurse-faints-during-on-live-tv-minutes-after-getting-coronavirus-vaccine/news-story/4bc404e883682cf82a43bdb3e3155ae7

 

 

I wonder if anyone has ever fainted for reasons other than having a vaccine? I remember I fainted once while standing in the classroom at school, I recall we were standing for morning prayers, maybe it was Christianity that made me faint? 

[sagebrush]

11 minutes ago, Bindi said:

does seem to be a mass suspicion of vaccines

I am not suspicious of the vaccine. I never get the flu shot and I manage just fine. I am an advocate of the vaccines that are required by state law and attendance of public school and further immunizations like HPV for my young adult son.

 

I guess when the time comes to make a decision I will choose. its never going to be a a full guarantee.

 

 

[Michael Sternbach]

32 minutes ago, sagebrush said:

wondering if I would take vaccine? Its not available at this moment to have to make the choice.

 

Only over my dead body.

 

Cheers

Michael

[sagebrush]

11 minutes ago, Bindi said:

maybe it was Christianity that made me faint? 

Ha-

 

[Bindi]

14 minutes ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

What a bitch you got involved with...

 

Not at all, she was trying to protect my child from the perspective of her experience in the hospital. 

 

14 minutes ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

 

For better or worse, the choice is yours...

 

I like you, Bindi, so I hope you will make the right choice.

 

Wish you best,

 

Michael

Did the vaccine conspiracies start here? 
 

The debate [around the link between autism and vaccines] began in 1998 when British researchers published a paper stating that the measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccine caused autism.

The paper itself later was officially labeled “fraud” by England’s General Medical Counsel, but it triggered a lot of debate over the safety of the vaccine which continues to this day.

The study looked at only 12 children, but it received a lot of publicity because at the same time, there was a rapid increase in the number of kids diagnosed with the condition.

The paper’s findings led other doctors to do their own research into the link between the MMR vaccine and autism. At least 12 follow-up studies were done. None found any evidence the vaccine caused autism.

An investigation into the 1998 study also uncovered a number of problems with how it was conducted. The journal that published it eventually retracted it. That meant the publication no longer stood by the results.

In 2010, the General Medical Counsel declared that the paper was not only based on bad science, but was deliberate fraud and falsifications by the head researchers, Dr. Andrew Wakefield and revoked his medical license. Investigators learned that a lawyer looking for a link between the vaccine and autism had paid Wakefield more than £435,000 (equal to more than a half-million dollars).

[cheya]

It's my understanding that, even after getting the vaccine, you still need to wear a mask and socially distance. Why? Because the vaccine protects against developing serious symptoms, and may thus save your life... but it does NOT protect you from becoming infected and passing it to others. That could make you an asymptomatic carrier.

 

People with serious co-morbidities who are unwilling or unable to get free of them, are probably better off getting the vaccine, so they won't die of the virus. But it doesn't sound like getting the vaccine will protect other members of your family from getting the virus from you.  They'll need to be vaccinated themselves. 

 

There are many more natural ways to protect yourself, if you are so inclined. That route seems to me to offer better odds, and less risk.  But for all of us, we'll make our choices, and we'll have to deal with any consequences.  Pretty much a crap shoot at this point. 

 

[Nungali]

44 minutes ago, Bindi said:

I wonder if anyone has ever fainted for reasons other than having a vaccine? I remember I fainted once while standing in the classroom at school, I recall we were standing for morning prayers, maybe it was Christianity that made me faint? 

 

'Fainted'    did she  ???

 

many people have fainted from a needle , or after giving blood  or  'feel faint ' at the sight of a needle  ....

 

But they usually recover ... and go back to some type of normality .... like responding to her social media

 

 

 

[thelerner]

2 hours ago, sagebrush said:

Well I have to disagree on that first sentence especially.

 

We have to listen to real experts. Real experts years ago mentioned in tv advertising and magazines that smoking was healthy

 

Years ago..? Rigorous scientific proof it was very bad for health came in the 1950s. 

 

Since 1970 every pack had a warning label saying WARNING: The SURGEON GENERAL HAS DETERMINED THAT CIGARETTE SMOKING IS DANGEROUS TO YOUR HEALTH and included the warning that This Product can cause such things as gum disease, tooth loss, and is addictive..

 

If you listen to science or read what was on a pack for the past 50 years it was an easy choice.  Diseases that have been conquered are coming back due to anti-vaccers.  I expect in the future, worse viruses will appear and smart people will get vaccinated.     

 

So yeah, imo, its not good to disregard real experts, though there are times real data and conclusions aren't available..  Now we have a vaccine that protects and stops the spread of Covid, in my mind its a real good idea to use it.   

 

 

[sagebrush]

31 minutes ago, thelerner said:

P.S I don't think your neighbor trusts you.

 If my neighbor did not trust me they would not be calling me to have me house sit. They know me very well and they trust me.

 

How do you NOT SEE THIS? in my above posting? they call me to house sit from December to April every year.

 

So I am not to be trusted to go buy groceries but I am trusted for years with key to the house.

 

 

I dont know what you are saying about the smoking stuff.

 

I saw a documentary and it was full of old advertising and these commercials were depicting that smoking this or that is the preferred choice by doctors and that it was healthy. I will try to locate the name of the documentary. the advertising must pre date the surgeon general warning. of course by now it is labeled on the packs of smokes.

Same thing with USDA. the food pyramid. not healthy its  not true. its financially  backed by the cattle and dairy industry. essentially from what I understand. milk robs the body of calcium...but we are told milk does a body good.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 3, 2021 by sagebrush

[thelerner]

fine.. your neighbor trusts you..cept for groceries.  Perhaps they didn't want to ask any more of you.  

 

I was trying to get across that it wasn't in the past few years we've learned cigarettes are bad.   It's been on every pack of US cigarettes for the last 50 years.  One can find quack things new and old on the web.  So its important to stay current and look at different credible sources.  

 

For example the USDA isn't using the old food pyramid anymore.  For info on what they're teaching these days go to https://www.myplate.gov/

apologies for getting so far off the subject.  My point is, yes you can find old science to back up bad ideas, but one should stay modern, look at different credible sources and avoid conspiracy sites and theories.  

 

So, why is the science right, now?  I'd say because this has been an intense worldwide effort.  Most nations have been throwing their best and brightest at Covid, because its new, spreads rapidly and is killing millions.  There has been unprecedented sharing and cooperation to learn about and beat this thing.   Results are being carefully watched and monitored.  We are learning more as time goes on.

 

< what I meant by 'we're all doing our best' was that in these tense times, we should cut other people slack.  Not that I'm a good example of that. >

[Nungali]

31 minutes ago, sagebrush said:

 If my neighbor did not trust me they would not be calling me to have me house sit. They know me very well and they trust me.

 

How do you NOT SEE THIS? in my above posting? they call me to house sit from December to April every year.

 

So I am not to be trusted to go buy groceries but I am trusted for years with key to the house.

 

 

I dont know what you are saying about the smoking stuff.

 

I saw a documentary and it was full of old advertising and these commercials were depicting that smoking this or that is the preferred choice by doctors and that it was healthy. I will try to locate the name of the documentary. the advertising must pre date the surgeon general warning. of course by now it is labeled on the packs of smokes.

Same thing with USDA. the food pyramid. not healthy its  not true. its financially  backed by the cattle and dairy industry. essentially from what I understand. milk robs the body of calcium...but we are told milk does a body good.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ummmm  ........      advertising dude !

 

Did you know that every toothpaste commercial features a real expert dentist ?

 

 

 

... well,  he does have a white coat on !

[sagebrush]

well I am not trusted with groceries? I dont think so. It was a matter of a pick up delivery. Not shopping.

 

I find it funny that I see him in the store. 

 

3 minutes ago, thelerner said:

  One can find quack things new and old on the web.  So its important to stay current and look at different credible source

this is a documentary and I believe its credible sources. its not quack off the web.

I watched many documentaries at a nutrition camp. 

Maybe What the Health or Forks over Knives could possibly be title. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[sagebrush]

I do not like you Nungali. 

 

My dentist wears a blue smock. we can safely assume the commercials are paid actors.

 

The labels are not truly protecting consumers because a greater number of toothpaste labels contain

 

Fluoride. and that is poison.

 

Trust experts-----I dont think so.

 

I do not TRUST you Nungali

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 3, 2021 by sagebrush

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, sagebrush said:

I do not like you Nungali. 

 

My dentist wears a blue smock. we can safely assume the commercials are paid actors.

 

Yet ....... 

 

5 hours ago, sagebrush said:

....... Real experts years ago mentioned in tv advertising and magazines that smoking was healthy and that more doctors preferred whatever brand  .....

 

 

can you even follow a conversation  ?  

 

2 hours ago, sagebrush said:

 

 

The labels are not truly protecting consumers because a greater number of toothpaste labels contain

 

Fluoride. and that is poison.

 

Trust experts-----I dont think so.

 

But  above you where saying how you did trust experts .

 

- can you even follow  your own  conversations ?

 

 

2 hours ago, sagebrush said:

 

 

I do not TRUST you Nungali

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Are there any groceries I can pick up for you while   ........  

 

 

 

 

 

I am out shopping  ? 

 

 

[sagebrush]

17 minutes ago, Nungali said:

But  above you where saying how you did trust experts .

 

Nope. I do not trust the experts.  I am a total skeptic. 

Nowhere in any post  inside this vaccine thread did I state that I trust experts. So officially you are incorrect.

 

I will not give you much more of  my time and attention when it wont go anywhere productive. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 3, 2021 by sagebrush

[Bindi]

 

 

But is this really Tiffany Dover, or an actor pretending to be Tiffany Dover (because Nungali’s link shows that Tiffany Dover was suspected to have died).
 

Does she really have a history of fainting, or is this just part of the coverup again? Is her explanation scripted?