MCO point location

[laughingblade]

I've come across a teacher using points at the front of the spine during MCO upward flow instead of the rear as usually taught, and using intention to light them up.

 

I'm wondering does this have any genuine lineage connection? I've only ever come across one hint of a "subterranean" Ren (yes, Ren) flow at the front of the spine.

[freeform]

11 minutes ago, laughingblade said:

front of the spine during MCO upward flow

That’s possible... though usually not at the start.

 

12 minutes ago, laughingblade said:

using intention to light them up.

This approach is specifically avoided and discouraged in my experience - though there are many teachers that use it.

[freeform]

Though if your teacher and his/her seniors shows genuine attainment (and virtue) then follow the training as specified! 

[XianGong]

This does not work.

For you do not have the energy to go through MCO, to begin with.

The first step is to build up DanTien.

Intention causes blockages all the way.

 

If your teachers can levitate burn stuff and e.t.c I would take my words back, but so far this sounds like Mantak chia crap. 

[laughingblade]

On 1/8/2021 at 2:41 AM, XianGong said:

This does not work.

For you do not have the energy to go through MCO, to begin with.

The first step is to build up DanTien.

Intention causes blockages all the way.

 

If your teachers can levitate burn stuff and e.t.c I would take my words back, but so far this sounds like Mantak chia crap. 

 

Do you know anything about these points along the front of the spine?

What do you mean "work"? Just one minute of paying attention and you would know that _something_ arises at those points.

Do you mean _I_ don't have the energy? This is your default position to almost anyone as far as I can see, isn't it... but you don't claim attainment for yourself: So who are you to say who has what?

I was asking about intention at the points, not about the flow. But I kinda agree, and ime mind must rest before LDT develops and MCO flows spontaneously... which is why I'm investigating what I'm being taught.

If you even knew Mantak Chia you would know it's not Mantak Chia. Good to know what people teach before you flip them off.

Levitate and burn stuff is imho a bullshit goal of cultivation. Only one guy seems to have demonstrated it, ever, and as far as we know he was never able to teach others.

But thanks.

[XianGong]

48 minutes ago, laughingblade said:

If you even knew Mantak Chia you would know it's not Mantak Chia. Good to know what people teach before you flip them off.

 

I know mantak chia, and in his system they focus intent on those points along the MCO. 

 

 

49 minutes ago, laughingblade said:

Levitate and burn stuff is imho a bullshit goal of cultivation. Only one guy seems to have demonstrated it, ever, and as far as we know he was never able to teach others.

But thanks.

 

It is not a bullshit goal, it shows the level of Qi accumulated and skill developed. 

[laughingblade]

12 minutes ago, XianGong said:

 

I know mantak chia, and in his system they focus intent on those points along the MCO. 

 

 

 

It is not a bullshit goal, it shows the level of Qi accumulated and skill developed. 

 

Which Mantak Chia book is that?

 

So per my OP it's been suggested to find those spinal points in front of the spine. Like this one every diagram I've seen seems to locate them behind the spine. (I guess this leads to confusion with acupuncture points too, but that's perhaps another discussion). I'm interested to know where that comes from and what difference it makes - subjectively it's different, but why? Are these old diagrams all misinterpreted, is it just a stylistic quirk that they are shown outside? And a blanket "it doesn't work" isn't in any way a helpful comment, cos stuff does happen, even if nothing catches literally on fire.

 

I say those attainments are bullshit because almost nobody can do them. That doesn't mean that people have zero attainment: this is a gradual path like most others, and there are valuable degrees of progress.

[XianGong]

4 minutes ago, laughingblade said:

Which Mantak Chia book is that?

 

He has many books, this pic was drawn for him.

 

4 minutes ago, laughingblade said:

I say those attainments are bullshit because almost nobody can do them. That doesn't mean that people have zero attainment: this is a gradual path like most others, and there are valuable degrees of progress.

 

Just because someone cannot do something does not mean its bullshit. That's like saying university physics is bullshit because I study in kindergarten.

Yes, there is a gradual path with abilities and siddhis opening all the way through. It fascinates me how people without abilities claim they are gurus. 

[laughingblade]

2 minutes ago, XianGong said:

He has many books, this pic was drawn for him.

 

Yeah, I know that. The specific book might be of interest ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

3 minutes ago, XianGong said:

Just because someone cannot do something does not mean its bullshit

 

You seem to say that every attainment that isn't setting shit on fire or levitation is false, or of no value. That's false.

 

People can still teach what they know to their level of attainment. Calling themselves guru might be valid, I dunno: personally I think the term is beyond broken. But some probably dead guy across the world who apparently once set stuff on fire but never taught any fly white guy except, allegedly, Jim MacMillan, is hardly any use to anybody. Might as well follow Jesus, he had some cool miracles

[XianGong]

1 minute ago, laughingblade said:

You seem to say that every attainment that isn't setting shit on fire or levitation is false, or of no value. That's false.

 

Where did I say that? Quote, please.

 

 

[XianGong]

2 minutes ago, laughingblade said:

Yeah, I know that. The specific book might be of interest ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

 

I think it might be called Microcosmic orbit..

 

Also, it's a bad method, but your choice of what to cultivate.

[laughingblade]

24 minutes ago, XianGong said:

 

Where did I say that? Quote, please.

 

 

Well, I've seen your comments on other posts. My impression is that you usually cruise by, ignore the topic, and say that unless the OP or their teachers can do what John Chang did then they are all worthless. Happy to be wrong if I've missed the nuance.

[laughingblade]

31 minutes ago, XianGong said:

 

I think it might be called Microcosmic orbit..

 

Also, it's a bad method, but your choice of what to cultivate.

 

I don't think he actually has a book with that title. Surprising! I did find it here though: https://www.healing-tao.co.uk/ht_microcosmic_orbit.htm so I guess it's kosher.

 

See, there you go again: "it's a bad method". You _could_ offer some explanation as to why (you think) it's a bad method. Is it the way MC teaches it, is it MCO altogether, is it MCO before you've started building a LDT, are there 'good' MCO methods? All I've seen you do is say practices are bad because they don't let you levitate or set fire to paper, and frankly that comes across as juvenile bluster. Assuming you do some kind of practice then I wonder how you're getting on with it, especially if your marker for progress is (still) to be able to beat up on everybody else?

[ilumairen]

7 minutes ago, laughingblade said:

Well, I've seen your comments on other posts. My impression is that you usually cruise by, ignore the topic, and say that unless the OP or their teachers can do what John Chang did then they are all worthless. Happy to be wrong if I've missed the nuance.

Hi laughingblade,

 

Are you aware of the “ignore member” function on this site? It can be found by going to your profile, and some have found it quite useful.

 

On 1/7/2021 at 9:41 PM, XianGong said:

This does not work.

For you do not have the energy to go through MCO, to begin with.

The first step is to build up DanTien.

Intention causes blockages all the way.

 

If your teachers can levitate burn stuff and e.t.c I would take my words back, but so far this sounds like Mantak chia crap. 

 

Hi XianGong,

 

The member you are addressing requested considerations and thoughts regarding a specific practice they have come across, not a personal assessment of their own energy level and attainment - which I find not only to be derailing of the intent of the thread, but also both intrusive and personally demeaning.  
 

Please focus on the topic/broader subject, and not the member (unless your opinion of their energy/attainment/whatnot is specifically requested). Future instances such as the above may lead to harsher warnings and/or suspension.

[freeform]

Front of the spine is definitely not a standard route... maybe this isn’t an MCO practice, but a way to work on the central channel? What happens after you reach the head?

 

What’s more usual is the points on the back surface of the spine... sometimes through the centre of the spine... in some cases almost the whole back that gets involved (that’s most accurate in my experience).

 

The most thorough presentation of the MCO I’ve seen is this one: https://damomitchell.com/2020/03/23/microcosmic-orbit/

 

Maybe you’ll find some clues there?

[dwai]

Here’s another good one — https://www.internalartsinternational.com/free/daoist-meditation-lesson-eight-theory-golden-fluid-the-micro-cosmic-orbit/#Ren_and_Du_The_Micro-Cosmic_Orbit

[laughingblade]

It's definitely not central channel. From the bai hui it's down through throat, behind breastplate to chi hai below belly button. Interestingly tongue to roof of mouth is not a feature.

 

From previous experience where I've driven up Du and down Ren with some force - when I was young and spunky and would live forever - the results were harsh to say the least. Not recommended. This current approach is far more gentle and I'm enjoying letting the points 'arise' with light attention. Moments of flow occur naturally. Combining with long breath holds (my other recent thread) is really nice.

 

Yes - thanks for the Damo Mitchell reminder. I should find time to watch that series. A couple of reminders I got from his podcast recently is not to confuse MCO points with acupuncture points, the LDT is deeper in the body than you think, and you need to cultivate LDT before anything else is going to happen.

[dwai]

Another way to drive the MCO is what is called the “indirect method” in Temple Style Tai Chi parlance (Waysun Liao’s system) — generate a taiji ball between your palms and connect the mind to the center of

the ball.
 

Then roll the ball upward and downward — when this taiji ball becomes substantial, it will naturally drive the flow from dantian via the back channel and downward the front channel — just keep the tongue up. 

 

How to build a taiji ball —

 

Spoiler

 

 

Here's an hour-long free tutorial by Master Liao on creating a Taiji ball 

 

https://www.taichitao.tv/programs/taichi-connect-engineering-a-taichi-ball-master-waysun-liao-4192020

 

The rationale I've been given is that working directly with the MCO, using the mind to drive the flow is hard, because it depends on how concentrated the mind is, and often the mind will skip over blockages. The indirect way uses qi to induce the flow and it is a gentler and efficient way to go about this. 

 

Also, a very powerful way to do the MCO is using the "rotate oar" form. I use both the methods I have outlined personally and frankly, I got more mileage out of them than with seated MCO mental method. This is not a free course (below) but it is quite affordable. 

 

https://www.taichitao.tv/programs/taichi-video-rotate-oar?categoryId=7048

Edited January 18, 2021 by dwai

[XianGong]

2 hours ago, laughingblade said:

All I've seen you do is say practices are bad because they don't let you levitate or set fire to paper, and frankly that comes across as juvenile bluster. Assuming you do some kind of practice then I wonder how you're getting on with it, especially if your marker for progress is (still) to be able to beat up on everybody else?

 

This is straight disrespectful, I have given u a piece of advice, that is your response, welcome on the ignore list then.

 

2 hours ago, ilumairen said:

The member you are addressing requested considerations and thoughts regarding a specific practice they have come across, not a personal assessment of their own energy level and attainment - which I find not only to be derailing of the intent of the thread, but also both intrusive and personally demeaning.  

 

I did not mention his attainment or assessed his energy, I have said that you/one should build energy before going for MCO practice. ONE =/= the guy you are talking about. 

[laughingblade]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

Another way...

 

 

Thanks! Nice to be reminded of foundations.

 

Ah, your edit with the added link is great!

Edited January 18, 2021 by laughingblade
reflect original post changes

[laughingblade]

25 minutes ago, XianGong said:

 

This is straight disrespectful,

 

Maybe. I find your approach challenging, and politeness evades me at times. Thanks for engaging. 🙏

[freeform]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

working directly with the MCO, using the mind to drive the flow is hard, because it depends on how concentrated the mind is, and often the mind will skip over blockages. The indirect way uses qi to induce the flow and it is a gentler and efficient way to go about this. 

 

Agreed

 

The main issue with any mental direction is that it’s an action - meaning the ‘cause’ is temporary... so as soon as you stop directing - the flow will stop...

 

In traditional schools, you can’t say you’ve achieved the small waterwheel if it’s not a permanent quality in you.

 

Also mental action stops any form of deeper absorption.

 

From my experience following the indirect method, the flow is definitely not gentle, when the mind gets out of the way it becomes a powerful circulating waterfall...

[Maddie]

I noticed a little over a year ago around the same time I began to reevaluate a lot of things that the very top vertebrae where it meets the skull began to pop a lot and very loudly. Now of course this could be totally unrelated but I have noticed in the past when I've been dealing with issues on a mental level that the vertebrae that relate to the chakra most associated with those issues tends to pop a lot and now I've been reevaluating the big picture in my top vertebrae is popping a lot and I'm wondering if there's any correlation?

[laughingblade]

Is that like cracking when you pull you finger joints? Sitting still or moving?

 

I've got no diagnosis, it's interesting though.

[exorcist_1699]

Once you have been able to initialize  qi,  be it from the lower dantian(male ) , or from the middle dandian ( female ) , you then wait for qi telling you how it develops ( where it goes and in what direction..) ,  not your desire of  what it is  or what other people tell you how it should be .   An important saying :  " 氣滿督自開"

 

" Once qi accumulated and got full, the channel of  Du  itself  opens "

 

so the channel  of Du is formed out of qi,  developed by it  , not by your intention .  And, if  it has not been full,  there is  no use of your adding your intention to make it full  or  to lead it in whatever ways   . Please notice that a stronger intention / focus  gives rise to "evil fire" ( "邪火" )   , not more or better qi , regardless of its giving you stronger feelings (  students of TCM likely can grasp this easier..)

 

Similar to the Du channel, a genuine mindless Mind is  nourished out of  qi   * , so  any intention to attain it ( intentionally)  inevitably  results in  a  grinding-a-brick-to-become-mirror  failure  , some kind of meditation that most  people have been doing  for  their whole life-time,  yet useless.

 

 

* Another way is via  Zen's , which is too peculiar for most people to grasp .

 

 

Edited February 4, 2021 by exorcist_1699