What are your tradition's safeguards against self-delusion or being deluded by others?

[C T]

Well, a crooked teacher who feigns enlightenment will eventually be found out. History has proven that without fail. 

You can only masquerade it for so long. Look at Sogyal Rinpoche, for instance. The list goes on. 

But there are many *hidden* yogis who have no desire to have followers or students. They spend their lives in retreat, in caves or tiny huts up in the Himalayas. They find contentment like that. 

[liminal_luke]

I love books and movies with super-competent characters and especially enjoy fantasizing that it´s me in the staring role outwitting bad guys with my computing genius, streetfighting prowess or telepathic abilities.  Enlightenment is all of this raised to the gazzillionth power -- the ultimate ego trip.  Oops, am I supposed to say that?  

 

Enlightenment is real, I´m sure, and at a certain point it makes sense to talk about it. Maybe.  Still, I can´t help but think many of us -- and most especially me -- would be better off focusing on lesser spiritual goals.  Instead of asking who is enlightened, how about asking who is kind?  Sometimes it feels icky to me when people make super lofty spiritual claims and equally icky when those claims are challenged by skeptics.  Maybe someday I´ll be enlightened, sure hope so.  In the meantime, I think it´s enough if I can get through the day without eating a second blueberry muffin.

Edited January 5, 2021 by liminal_luke

[Sketch]

Still seems like a weird system of end gaming. Only playing a musical instrument because the Grammies exist. 

Only playing catch if there's a big league. Makes all the real work seem drab.

[Limahong]

35 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

Agreed. the path to enlightenment is not enlightenment. 

 

Disagree.

 

The path IS ~ as enlightenment is a journey not a destination.

 

[Maddie]

2 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

and equally icky when those claims are challenged by skeptics. 

 

When I was younger I was duped too many times because I was very gullible. I wound up in cult like groups because I was afraid to ask questions to determine if claims made were true or not.

 

Since then I have highly valued healthy skepticism. 

 

The Buddha said no teacher or teaching is above examination or questioning. When people would approach the Buddha and ask him why what he taught was true or correct he was always perfectly fine with explaining it to them so they would understand for themselves. He never said "how dare you question me" in fact he encouraged self inquiry, and healthy skepticism.   

[Maddie]

3 minutes ago, Limahong said:

 

Disagree.

 

The path IS ~ as enlightenment is a journey not a destination.

 

 

The Buddha compared the Dhamma to a raft when once the other shore had been reached it made no sense to carry the raft around any longer. The other shore is the goal, not the raft that takes one there. 

[Sketch]

2 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

 

The Buddha compared the Dhamma to a raft when once the other shore had been reached it made no sense to carry the raft around any longer. The other shore is the goal, not the raft that takes one there. 

And if someone swims across the same river

They stop swimming at the shore as well. 

 

[Limahong]

12 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

What exactly is "enlightenment" in Daoist terms?

 

Only a fool will know what  "enlightenment" is ~ EXACTLY.

 

 

 

[Maddie]

4 minutes ago, Sketch said:

And if someone swims across the same river

They stop swimming at the shore as well. 

 

 

I think the reason the Buddha used the raft metaphor as opposed to swimming is because the raft can carry one safely to the other shore but if one swims across a dangerous river one risks drowning. 

Edited January 5, 2021 by dmattwads

[Maddie]

3 minutes ago, Limahong said:

 

Only a fool will know what  "enlightenment" is ~ EXACTLY.

 

 

 

 

Considering the primary means to awaken is through wisdom an enlightened person is as opposite from a fool as one can get. 

Edited January 5, 2021 by dmattwads

[Paradoxal]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

Each stage of inner transformation always has specific signs that are quite plain and obvious... As a minor example - once one of the 8 extraordinary channels are fully opened, the practitioner is no longer affected by ambient temperature - meaning their body is comfortable at all times - and it completely stops responding by shivering, or sweating or standing one's hair on end.

Does the lack of sweat also happen when doing severe exercise, or is it simply an immunity to external factors? 

[Sketch]

Sometimes,one risks drowning.

 

My wife quotes Arthur Ransome a lot...."better drowned than duffers.If not duffers, won't drown"

Risk management is the essence of fun.

Edited January 5, 2021 by Sketch

[Maddie]

3 minutes ago, Sketch said:

Sometimes,one risks drowning.

 

My wife quotes Arthur Ransome a lot...."better drowned than duffers.If not duffers, won't drown"

Risk management is the essence of fun.

 

The fact that people drown makes me appreciate boats all the more. 

[freeform]

15 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

 

What exactly is "enlightenment" in Daoist terms? 

 

There's no word for 'enlightenment' in Daoism - there's just a word for 'one who has attained' a state that parallels enlightenment... which is Zhenren... which means something along the lines of 'True Person'... 'True' because they've completely transformed the 'false self' and fully actualised Yuan Shen (original spirit) in all aspects and on all levels of who they are.

[Maddie]

Just now, freeform said:

 

There's no word for 'enlightenment' in Daoism - there's just a word for 'one who has attained' a state that parallels enlightenment... which is Zhenren... which means something along the lines of 'True Person'... 'True' because they've completely transformed the 'false self' and fully actualised Yuan Shen (original spirit) in all aspects and on all levels of who they are.

 

Is this the same as the "sage" in the DDJ?

[Sketch]

in fact, some of my happiest times have been spent messing about on boats.

Edited January 5, 2021 by Sketch

[liminal_luke]

18 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

 

When I was younger I was duped too many times because I was very gullible. I wound up in cult like groups because I was afraid to ask questions to determine if claims made were true or not.

 

Since then I have highly valued healthy skepticism. 

 

The Buddha said no teacher or teaching is above examination or questioning. When people would approach the Buddha and ask him why what he taught was true or correct he was always perfectly fine with explaining it to them so they would understand for themselves. He never said "how dare you question me" in fact he encouraged self inquiry, and healthy skepticism.   

 

Good point.  We do need to be skeptical, to have discernment, in order to decide what groups to join, which teachers to follow, etc.  Nothing wrong with having a finely tuned "bullshit detector."  I think the ickyiness I refereneced in some skepticism is a different animal from the kind of discernment you value.

 

I´ll clarify with a recent example of something that happened in my own mind.  A Bum named Shanmugam recently started a thread in which he claimed to be enlightened (or at least awakened).  Reading his account, I felt  an ornery contrariness arise within me and I wanted to fight, verbally anyway.  I couldn´t just be happy for him.  You´re enlightened?  Good for you -- enjoy!  I would have prefered to meet someone online who was suffering like me.  It´s a shadenfruedey kind of ickyiness, the absense of mudita.

Edited January 5, 2021 by liminal_luke

[Maddie]

Just now, Sketch said:

 

This is also why I'm particular to which boat I get on 

 

[freeform]

On 05/01/2021 at 5:35 PM, Paradoxal said:

Does the lack of sweat also happen when doing severe exercise, or is it simply an immunity to external factors? 

 

Body temperature is controlled by other means - so no, no sweating even when exercising.

 

edit - there can still be some sweating created by inner heat - usually not with physical exercise, unless ‘inner heat’ is generated.

Edited October 28, 2021 by freeform

[Limahong]

1 minute ago, dmattwads said:

Considering the primary means to awaken is through wisdom and enlightened person is as opposite from a fool as one can get.

 

 

 

 

[Maddie]

1 minute ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Good point.  We do need to be skeptical, to have discernment, in order to decide what groups to join, which teachers to follow, etc.  Nothing wrong with having a finely tuned "bullshit detector."  I think the ickyiness I refereneced in some skepticism is a different animal from the kind of discernment you value.

 

I´ll clarify with a recent example of something that happened in my own mind.  A Bum named Shanmugam recently started a thread in which he claimed to be enlightened (or at least awakened).  Reading his account, I felt some an ornery contrariness arise within me and I wanted to fight, verbally anyway.  I couldn´t just be happy for him.  You´re enlightened?  Good for you -- enjoy!  I would have prefered to meet someone online who was suffering like me.  It´s a shadenfruedey kind of ickyiness, the absense of mudita.

 

I think most of us are skeptical about this claim as we should be.

 

Now if the reason for the skepticism is due to the fact that many people that are not enlightened make this claim and one is not simply going to believe such a claim with out any evidence to do so then that seems quite legitimate.

 

On the other hand if one didn't want someone to be enlightened then that would indeed be an issue to take a look at within ones self, but taking a look with much self kindness though to foster awareness. 

[freeform]

12 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

 

Is this the same as the "sage" in the DDJ?

 

No - a sage is a Shengren - what's considered as a 'lower' attainment - it's akin to something like 'fully awakened to their true nature'... They've permanently realised their true nature - but it remains 'unactualised' - meaning they're not fully transformed.

 

I'm not that clear on Buddhist terminology - (so this might be wrong) - but you could say that a Shengren is a stream enterer... a Zhenren is a deity or a buddha (though a deity that must return to physicality within 30 thousand years or something)... a Xian (or immortal) would never need to return.

 

[edit] I'm not one of those that believes "it's all the same in the end" by the way... that doesn't seem to be the case to me. It appears that the 'tantric' spiritual systems have a slightly different attainment than do others...

 

I'm informed that this stuff doesn't stop either - even after immortality there's a path...

Edited January 5, 2021 by freeform

[Sketch]

Brad Warner talks about his ex girlfriend kind of "rooting against" his enlightenment. 

[forestofclarity]

Most people do. I've found that few traditions outside of the India take seriously the problem of epistemology (how we know what we know). But if you really push the inquiry, nearly everyone finds that the whole mechanism breaks down outside of direct experience. 

 

36 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

I disagree.

 

Though it's true that once someone is at a high level it can be difficult to discern

 

[Limahong]

3 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

I would have preferred to meet someone online who was suffering like me.

 

Hi Jesse,

 

You are on the path to enlightenment. Why? Suffering is part of being enlightened.

 

Can we journey together?

 

- Anand