What are your tradition's safeguards against self-delusion or being deluded by others?

[Maddie]

2 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

No - a sage is a Shengren - what's considered as a 'lower' attainment - it's akin to something like 'fully awakened to their true nature'... They've permanently realised their true nature - but it remains 'unactualised' - meaning they're not fully transformed.

 

I'm not that clear on Buddhist terminology - (so this might be wrong) - but you could say that a Shengren is a stream enterer... a Zhenren is a deity or a buddha (though a deity that must return to physicality within 30 thousand years or something)... a Xian (or immortal) would never need to return.

 

Then based on that terminology I'd roughly equate Sage with stream enterer, Zhenren as a once returner, and an immortal as an Arahat. 

[Sketch]

If I absolutely had to describe a goal to my current practices,  it would be something like my understanding of Lao Tzu 's Shengren. Then, I'd be in a better position to decide what was enlightenment than I am now.

[Maddie]

1 minute ago, Sketch said:

If I absolutely had to describe a goal to my current practices,  it would be something like my understanding of Lao Tzu 's Shengren. Then, I'd be in a better position to decide what was enlightenment than I am now.

 

If I had to summarize enlightenment in just two words it would be "perfect contentment" 

Edited January 5, 2021 by dmattwads

[Sketch]

4 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

 

If I had to summarize enlightenment in just two words it would be "perfect contentment" 

Then I've been there many times. 

 

You should give fishing a go.

 

 

[Paradoxal]

13 minutes ago, freeform said:

I'm not that clear on Buddhist terminology - (so this might be wrong) - but you could say that a Shengren is a stream enterer... a Zhenren is a deity or a buddha (though a deity that must return to physicality within 30 thousand years or something)... a Xian (or immortal) would never need to return.

What signs would there be of someone who is a Zhenren? 

[Maddie]

Just now, Sketch said:

Then I've been there many times. 

 

You should give fishing a go.

 

 

 

If it ended then its not perfect.

[liminal_luke]

8 minutes ago, Limahong said:

 

Hi Jesse,

 

Can we journey together?

 

- Anand

 

 

I´d be honored to journey with you, Anand.  (Though I suspect we´re all journeying together whether we like it or not.)

[freeform]

6 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

But if you really push the inquiry, nearly everyone finds that the whole mechanism breaks down outside of direct experience. 

 

Yeah - that's true... though it's quite possible to push inquiry to support anything you want... Those composers who found the music written by an AI exceptionally moving would come up with all sorts of justifications why the composer of this piece was a musical genuis.

 

The reality is that we have to take people's word on all manner of things.

 

I like the Daoist practicality that posits these things as experiments... develop your dantien using this method and it will become a solid sphere... open this channel fully and you will no longer sweat or shiver... These things all have reasonably objective evidence.

[Limahong]

2 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

But if you really push the inquiry, nearly everyone finds that the whole mechanism breaks down outside of direct experience.

 

Hi forestofemptiness,

 

Yes. The journey of being enlightened (or not) is experiential.

 

I like to journey in your forest of emptiness...

 

 

The rain there will be refreshing and enlightening.

 

- Anand

 

 

[Maddie]

 

 

 

 

I thought I posted this yesterday but I don't know if it showed up.

[Sketch]

1 minute ago, dmattwads said:

 

If it ended then its not perfect.

What ended?

[Maddie]

Just now, Sketch said:

What ended?

 

Contentment

[freeform]

1 minute ago, Paradoxal said:

What signs would there be of someone who is a Zhenren? 

 

Full omniscience is one.

[Piyadasi]

6 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

 

Then based on that terminology I'd roughly equate Sage with stream enterer, Zhenren as a once returner, and an immortal as an Arahat. 

But an Arahant is not omniscient or omnipotent, according to classical texts, at least. Only a Buddha is fully omniscient/omnipotent. But at the same time, according to the texts, an Arahant is free from the cycle of rebirth. But according to some later texts, an Arahant will have to practice for the completion to Buddhahood, even if he's not really taking 'birth' at that point... But others disagree with that.

You could also equate Celestial Immortality with Non-return-ship, for example...

I find this quite confusing... I guess it's only appropriate with the hardest thing imaginable any existence could ever hope to accomplish. Are there perhaps different levels of omniscience? That doesn't really make sense to me.

[Sketch]

1 minute ago, dmattwads said:

 

Contentment

This is exactly a question of "gong".

[Paradoxal]

1 minute ago, freeform said:

Full omniscience is one.

Would you be willing to go into signs for all three that you mentioned? I find the direct signs to be quite a nice change when compared to other things I've studied.

[Maddie]

1 minute ago, Piyadasi said:

But an Arahant is not omniscient or omnipotent, according to classical texts, at least. Only a Buddha is fully omniscient/omnipotent. But at the same time, according to the texts, an Arahant is free from the cycle of rebirth. But according to some later texts, an Arahant will have to practice for the completion to Buddhahood, even if he's not really taking 'birth' at that point... But others disagree with that.

You could also equate Celestial Immortality with Non-return-ship, for example...

I find this quite confusing... I guess it's only appropriate with the hardest thing imaginable any existence could ever hope to accomplish. Are there perhaps different levels of omniscience? That doesn't really make sense to me.

 

It was a rough equation from two different systems. I suppose a non-returner would also qualify in regards to never coming back to earth to be reborn, but is also not omniscient. 

 

I don't know if there is a perfect analogy of the two systems.  

[Maddie]

2 minutes ago, Sketch said:

This is exactly a question of "gong".

 

What do you mean by that?

[Sketch]

2 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

 

What do you mean by that?

You have to love fishing without catching anything 

To really appreciate getting a bite.

 

The pathway is the thing. The goal is an illusion.

Edited January 5, 2021 by Sketch

[Maddie]

2 minutes ago, Sketch said:

You have to love fishing without catching anything 

To really appreciate getting a bite.

 

The pathway is the thing. The goal is an illusion.

 

Then that is a good example, and perhaps a glimpse of perfect contentment. 

 

Why is the raft more important than the destination one is sailing to?

[Sketch]

1 minute ago, dmattwads said:

 

Then that is a good example, and perhaps a glimpse of perfect contentment. 

 

Why is the raft more important than the destination one is sailing to?

At this point, I'm standing by the shore in hip waders.

[freeform]

3 minutes ago, Paradoxal said:

Would you be willing to go into signs for all three that you mentioned? I find the direct signs to be quite a nice change when compared to other things I've studied.

 

I don't know them all. There are many for each part of each stage...

 

Each of the De (the virtues) for instance have a corresponding physiological sign - but there are also qualities that are attained bit by bit as you move towards transforming your De...

 

This information is generally reserved for teachers only.

[Paradoxal]

2 minutes ago, freeform said:

I don't know them all. There are many for each part of each stage...

 

Each of the De (the virtues) for instance have a corresponding physiological sign - but there are also qualities that are attained bit by bit as you move towards transforming your De...

 

This information is generally reserved for teachers only.

Understood, thank you for sharing even a little!

[Limahong]

2 minutes ago, Sketch said:

What ended?

 

2 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

Contentment

 

 

Start of discontent?

 

 

Is this part of an enlightening journey?

 

 

 

No pain ~ no gain?

 

 

[Maddie]

10 minutes ago, Sketch said:

At this point, I'm standing by the shore in hip waders.

 

That's a very remarkable accomplishment.