What are your tradition's safeguards against self-delusion or being deluded by others?

[Limahong]

19 minutes ago, Sketch said:

This is exactly a question of "gong".

 

17 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

What do you mean by that?

 

 

 

 

[Maddie]

Just now, Limahong said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

That is the visual that came to mind.

[Limahong]

Just now, dmattwads said:

That is the visual that came to mind.

 

Are you stone deaf?

 

 

[Limahong]

43 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

(Though I suspect we´re all journeying together whether we like it or not.)

 

You travel first class? I can only afford economy.

 

Why?

 

The path of (to) enlightenment has its discomforts.

 

 

Edited January 5, 2021 by Limahong
Correction

[Limahong]

20 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

That is the visual that came to mind.

 

18 minutes ago, Limahong said:

Are you stone deaf?

 

Hi dmattwads,

 

Will this be more effective for you... visual, audio, explanatory, experiential...

 

 

 

- Anand

 

[C T]

41 minutes ago, Piyadasi said:

But an Arahant is not omniscient or omnipotent, according to classical texts, at least. Only a Buddha is fully omniscient/omnipotent. But at the same time, according to the texts, an Arahant is free from the cycle of rebirth. But according to some later texts, an Arahant will have to practice for the completion to Buddhahood, even if he's not really taking 'birth' at that point... But others disagree with that.

You could also equate Celestial Immortality with Non-return-ship, for example...

I find this quite confusing... I guess it's only appropriate with the hardest thing imaginable any existence could ever hope to accomplish. Are there perhaps different levels of omniscience? That doesn't really make sense to me.

 

In the suttas, Gautama, when asked, proclaimed that he acquired the 3 knowledges - he did not claim to be omnipotent. I don't believe any of the teachings even postulated or suggested that buddhas are in any way omnipotent. 

 

Buddha: "The recluse Vaccha, those who say the recluse Gotama is all knowing and all seeing and acknowledges remainderless knowledge and vision, while walking, standing, lying or awake, constantly and continually. They, do not say my words, they blame me falsely. 

 

Gotama knows the three knowledges. Saying it thus they would be saying the right thing, and not blaming me falsely. Vaccha, whenever I desire, I recollect the manifold previous births, such as one birth, two births, with all modes and all details, thus I recall the manifold previous births. Vaccha, when I desire, with the purified heavenly eye beyond human, see beings disappearing and appearing, in unexalted and exalted states, beautiful and ugly, in good and bad states -- I see beings, according their actions. Vaccha, destroying desires, my mind released and released through wisdom, here and now by myself realising I abide. Vaccha, if it is said, the recluse Gotama knows the three knowledges, saying it thus, you would be saying the right thing and not blaming me falsely’. ……"

 

Off topic, but needed clarification. 

[Limahong]

9 minutes ago, C T said:

Off topic, but needed clarification.

 

Hi CT,

 

Not off topic. Thank you.

 

- Anand

 

 

[Sketch]

1 hour ago, dmattwads said:

 

That's a very remarkable accomplishment.

Absolutely not masquerading as a "stream enterer" ... more indulging in my near constant reference to a few short passages from Zhuangzi,  whether they seem to fit the situation or not.

 

 

Zhuangzi and Huizi were strolling (you 遊) on the dam of the Hao River. Zhuangzi said, “How these minnows jump out of the water and play about (you 游) at their ease (cong rong 從容)! This is fish being happy (le 樂)! ”

Huizi said: “You, sir, are not a fish, how (an 安) do you know (zhi 知) what the happiness of fish is?”

Zhuangzi replied: “You, sir, are not me, how (an 安) do you know (zhi 知) that I do not know (bu zhi 不知) what the happiness of fish is?”

Huizi said: “I am not you, sir, so I inherently don’t know you; but you, sir, are inherently no fish, and that you don’t know (bu zhi 不知) what the happiness of fish is, is [now] fully [established].”

Zhuangzi replied: “Let’s return to the roots [of this conversation]. By asking “how (an 安) do you know (zhi 知) the happiness of fish,” you already knew (zhi 知) that I know (zhi 知) it, and yet you asked me; I know (zhi 知) it by standing overlooking the Hao River.”

(Zh. 17. Trans. Meyer, “Truth Claim”, 335, modified.)

 

 

Edited January 5, 2021 by Sketch

[Piyadasi]

1 hour ago, C T said:

Off topic, but needed clarification. 

The Buddha was held to be omnipotent in the same way, as I believe, @freeform was using the word omnipotent for the Enlightened being he met. Ie. being capable of everything that one can be capable of within the laws of reality. Having all powers and higher capacities and so on. The Buddha was held to have had all the powers that a being of any sort could ever have, there were no limitations on his power other than the laws of reality(not the laws that we understand necessarily). Frankly I think some of the later Mahayana sutras imagine his powers to be a little ridiculous (being able to put entire universes into each pore of his body is one such example...), the earlier texts give a little more sensible description, even if it's still astounding and more or less fits the description of omnipotent to all intents and purposes, but who am I to say.

"

1. Having been one he becomes many; having been many he becomes one.
2. He appears. He vanishes.
3. He goes unimpeded through walls, ramparts, & mountains as if through space.
4. He dives in and out of the earth as if it were water.
5. He walks on water without sinking as if it were dry land.
6. Sitting crosslegged he flies through the air like a winged bird.
7. With his hand he touches & strokes even the sun & moon, so mighty & powerful.
8. He exercises influence with his body even as far as the Brahma worlds.

"

...and many more are listed as well.

But if I misunderstand his meaning I'd be eager to learn more.

Edited January 5, 2021 by Piyadasi

[Limahong]

41 minutes ago, Piyadasi said:

if I misunderstand his meaning I'd be eager to learn more

 

I am touched by the humility. 

 

[freeform]

1 hour ago, Piyadasi said:

the earlier texts give a little more sensible description, even if it's still astounding and more or less fits the description of omnipotent to all intents and purposes, but who am I to say.

"

1. Having been one he becomes many; having been many he becomes one.
2. He appears. He vanishes.
3. He goes unimpeded through walls, ramparts, & mountains as if through space.
4. He dives in and out of the earth as if it were water.
5. He walks on water without sinking as if it were dry land.
6. Sitting crosslegged he flies through the air like a winged bird.
7. With his hand he touches & strokes even the sun & moon, so mighty & powerful.
8. He exercises influence with his body even as far as the Brahma worlds.

Thank you - I didn’t know there were such descriptions in the sutras.
 

But yes - this is exactly the sort of stuff Zhenren are known for too.

[anshino23]

Quote

Frankly I think some of the later Mahayana sutras imagine his powers to be a little ridiculous (being able to put entire universes into each pore of his body is one such example...)

 

How about creating your own pocket universe or Pure Abode? According to standard Mahayana theory, this is just what you're doing while cultivating toward Buddhahood. You're in charge of a certain chunk of the universe, a million galaxies or something, and you're responsible for teaching and saving all the beings there. This is your own buddha-kshetra. 

 

The deep-mahayana stuff goes far deeper than simply "liberation" which is the small-vehicle (Hinayana) approach for instance. The whole liberation/enlightenment thing is subtle. According to Mahayana, it helps to separate the two words in one's mind, liberation and enlightenment. Arhats are liberated, but not enlightened. They do get peace and nirvana and stuff, but it's not total and it's not forever. In the final analysis there's no "somewhere" to go in real liberation -- buddhas don't disappear off somewhere or go hide out somewhere. This place is it! Because it's not actually a place. An enlightened person's liberation isn't hindered by birth or death, coming or going. They don't have the need to get out of anything or get rid of anything.

 

The issue with defining the capabilities of authentic enlightenment is that we have to define what we mean by the term. In my view, it comes down to one's view of Mind. In the Zen, Ch'an and Mahayana Buddhist traditions (but also Vajrayana, including Dzogchen) there is a reference to Mind-only. But if we do not know what Mind is, how can we begin to fathom it?

 

From a wonderful book called The Mind Experiment by a student of the late master Nan Huai Chin, it is explained thus: 
 

"Enlightenment is called “great penetration and great awakening” because it realizes the wondrous Mind of the Absolute, the substance of the whole spiritual and material universe. The quest for enlightenment goes to the bottom of mind and things, self and the world. Thorough penetration means not only understanding “substance” but also knowing how to “function.” Awakening to the Way the universe works also reveals the “know-how” of creation. To realize the quintessence of creation also puts one at the helm of creation. When the mind penetrates to the source of being it acquires the power to control being, to be the master over life and death, thus effectively realizing that “emptiness is form/matter” and that “true emptiness creates wondrous being.” Enlightenment works as spiritual-physical emancipation.

 

The end of spiritual cultivation, of realizing no-self and emptiness, means liberation and autonomy of existence. The capacity to take up existence at will is based on a mind-created body of one’s own, not on a body born from the sex of others but from a self-initiated mental act. Transcendental wisdom generates the same dhyana-concentration power that also creates the “pure light” bodies of those in the dhyana-heavens. When body and mind are concentrated in emptiness, then emptiness and creation merge and all will be empty when one wants it, and exist when one wants it. As theoretical doctrine, this is called the contemplation of the mean (Madhyamika), of emptiness that holds the middle between being and non-being. As practical truth it means “to be capable of true emptiness and capable of wondrous being.” The highest wisdom does not renounce the world or cast aside existence but reveals the wonder of emptiness, which is an infinite capacity for creation.

 

The Buddha’s Triple body of truth/substance (dharma-kaya), enjoyment/retribution (sambhoga- kaya), and manifestation (nirmana-kaya) is based on this accomplishment. Such achievement, real supremacy of mind over matter, is very rare in human history. Only this “trinity-in-unity” realizes the full extent of the highest Buddhist doctrine of “Mind-only.” The substance of enlightenment is the one source of both matter and spirit, while its function is not only knowing Dharma but also the power to incarnate freely and to transform infinitely. To master this mind-science is the end of all theory and practice, of all spirituality and all science and technology.

 

This highest empowerment is the result of the deepest humility, of utter selflessness. To actualize the “great Self” the little self has to die. Humility is the first precept of Buddhism, required in order to understand and practice the principle of no-self, and to eliminate the illusionary ego. Real self- actualization means self-annihilation. The deepest kenosis or self-negation ascends to the highest transcendence. “Extinction of body and mind” is the one and only door to the “self, Purity, Bliss, and Eternity” of Nirvana.

 

“Though I preach Nirvana, there is no true extinction. All things from their origin are in themselves marked by quiet extinction.” Nirvana is not the ending of a Buddha or the end of the world. Buddha goes on, the world goes on, and life goes on. For the Buddhas, who are in full control, the power of creation opens up an inexhaustible range of existence. They become cosmic Buddhas and create inconceivable vast worlds and pure lands (that are not part of Samsara, unlike the heavens in the Triple Universe). The most popular trend of Buddhism in East Asia, Amithaba’s Pure Land of Bliss is based on such creation. Once reborn there, one is certain of future enlightenment and liberation from the birth-death cycle.

 

Emptiness does not dissolve the universe but opens up its boundless potential. Emptiness is also not elsewhere, apart or different from the world. All creation is not different from its substance. Emptiness is the substance of both creation and extinction. There is no duality between the world and ultimate reality. “This Dharma abides in the dimension of Truth while the world always stays in it.” Buddhist Dharma is not outside the world but right in it. Truth is originally and always present, in accordance with the non-duality of the Absolute. What is universal, eternal, and transcendental is never in decline or out of fashion. Therefore “no form of livelihood is opposed to Reality.” Renouncing the world to work out personal salvation, or staying in the world to work for the benefit of others, it is all Buddha work. Theoretically there is no need to leave the world in order to realize the Truth that is never absent, but in practice a lot of time in seclusion is needed to delve inside and dissolve the ignorance and the bonds that have kept us from enlightenment “since beginningless time.”

[Bindi]

From the Kevaddah Sutra 

 

Quote

 

Mind-made Body

"With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to creating a mind-made body. From this body he creates another body, endowed with form, made of the mind, complete in all its parts, not inferior in its faculties. Just as if a man were to draw a reed from its sheath. The thought would occur to him: 'This is the sheath, this is the reed. The sheath is one thing, the reed another, but the reed has been drawn out from the sheath.' Or as if a man were to draw a sword from its scabbard. The thought would occur to him: 'This is the sword, this is the scabbard. The sword is one thing, the scabbard another, but the sword has been drawn out from the scabbard.' Or as if a man were to pull a snake out from its slough. The thought would occur to him: 'This is the snake, this is the slough. The snake is one thing, the slough another, but the snake has been pulled out from the slough.' In the same way — with his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, the monk directs and inclines it to creating a mind-made body. From this body he creates another body, endowed with form, made of the mind, complete in all its parts, not inferior in its faculties.

 

 

 

I have never heard of this in Buddhism, though it reminds me of the Daoist Yangshen or immortal body that has to be formed.

 

[freeform]

11 minutes ago, Bindi said:

I have never heard of this in Buddhism, though it reminds me of the Daoist Yangshen or immortal body that has to be formed.

What is described in your quote is essentially the full spiritual path for both Daoist alchemy and the Jhanna practices were explained to me in Myanmar.

 

(though obviously missing the large collection of methodologies and mechanics that are required to achieve it)

Edited January 5, 2021 by freeform

[Nungali]

7 hours ago, Wilhelm said:

...

 

Love both of these examples.  

 

Very cool.  I'm aware of physical examinations in my tradition (as in your body reflecting quite clearly what you've accomplished), but I'd never heard of intellectual and philosophical tests (other then Koans, I suppose - and all I know about those is that they're called Koans)

 

The intellectual and physical requirements where for the advanced  to be admitted to the body that regulates things in the group. If one is going to contribute to making decisions to a level that actually effects peoples lives, it is considered that they need to be accomplished in all previous levels and have an understanding of the way of the world . . . in some fields .

 

" 

12. Persons who wish to be appointed to this College ... must volunteer for the office. The appointment is for Eleven Years. Volunteers must renounce for that period all further progress .... They must give evidence of first-rate ability in

(i) Some branch of athletics.

(ii) Some branch of learning.

13. They must also possess a profound general knowledge of history and of the art of government, with some attention to philosophy in general.

 

"

F or me  my branch of learning is 'Cultural Anthropology' and my branch of 'athletics' was martial arts .  I also study history but that started afterwards and mostly centres around pre-history  ( Australia , Central Asia, Egypt, Mesoptamia and Indus Valley).

 

And that is after a whole range of stages about understanding the self, its motivations and progressions  .... a little different from the requirements of modern politicians . I remember a famous Aussie one ; Russ HInze  ( the 'Minister for Racing ' ... seriously, we had a minister for  horse and dog racing and betting  ) when he arrived in a car out the front of Parliament House , so fat he couldnt get out, got stuck , someone started pulling his arm ... nope ! Another joined in  on the other arm  ...nope . A third went around the other side, got in the back seat with him , braced his back against the closed door and pushed him with both feet while the other two pulled his arms ....  bloooop !   out he popped onto the footpath .

 

Such is the stuff of mundane politics     

 

 

 

7 hours ago, Wilhelm said:

 

Really?  Is that by design - so no one will attach false meanings to the attainment (such as calling it an attainment)?

 

Regarding the term enlightenment , I dont it is by design , it just isnt used as at core, its a western system . I suppose traditionally and historically such western systems used a similar term 'Illumination' , but usage of it seems to have fallen out f fashion .

 

As far as 'knowing and understanding your specific purpose for this incarnation and getting on with it '  yes, that IS by design .  False meanings can't be attached to it as no one decides what that purpose is but you  , there is no judgement on a purpose  whether it be a 'ditch digger', a philosopher, a soldier, a mother ,  etc .   To become one of these , if it is your 'True Will' then  that  would be 'attainment ' .

 

The concept first appears in ancient Zoroastrianism  as 'khvarana' and entered the western tradition via 'Chaldaen Oracles'

 

http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/overview/index.htm#khvarenah

 

 

 

7 hours ago, Wilhelm said:

 

This is what the fellows whose material I'm studying do as well.

 

Its formal recognition ,  within that , or aside from it ,  I find one with balance can 'recognise a dickhead '  regardless of their 'attested attainment      .

 

 

 

7 hours ago, Wilhelm said:

 

Thank you!  That sounds quite similar to the definition from Swami Sarvapriyananda's video here (which, incidentally, I may have watched based on a reccomendation you gave in another thread).  My question is - how do you differentiate between spiritual attainment and mundane charisma?  I am definitely not at the same place you are in terms of spiritual progression, but I could say I've felt uplifted and 'taken in' by people with a range of motives (even one insurance salesman!), and probably some less-than-savoury cults of personality are able to draw well-meaning people in this way.  Does this method have prerequisites?

Could you be more specific?  Urban Dictionary's takes on this word were very funny but possibly not what you were getting at!

That's very fortunate that you were able to live close enough to your teachers to observe such things!  (Or maybe it came with their teachings - the fellows whose material I study gave me this information as well)

I see what you're saying.  Popularity of priestly/monastic skills (i.e. prayers) definitely point to something, but as you're saying not necessarily the 'big thing'.

Me too!  To a certain point, and then it gets in my way 

Thank you very much!  That was really fun to read.  The first time I asked a question to one of the individuals whose material I'm studying I felt something very similar - as if he'd discerned all my worst qualities from the one single (seemingly innocent) question, and that if I didn't move that very second something horrible was going to happen.  So... I got up and moved  aaaargh.  Next time I'll keep my ass planted, just in case.  It looks like you've got more coming, so I won't add anything else 

I think I see what you're getting at though I imagine you're paraphrasing because what makes sense to a fool (for example, me) might not get them anywhere.

 

 

One theme I saw in a few of the answers seemed to point towards discernment.  In your responses - could you mention whether this is an inherent skill, and if not, how it can be cultivated?

 

Thank you all again!

 

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, Limahong said:

 

Hi Jesse,

 

You are on the path to enlightenment. Why? Suffering is part of being enlightened.

 

Can we journey together?

 

- Anand

 

 

 

 

 

 

or, if you prefer ...

 

 

 

 

Enlightenment is to GO BEYOND suffering  .....   when one is  ON THE PATH  TO   enlightenment , yes, one suffers .

 

But suffering is  not PART OF  enlightenment .    Thats the whole point of it .  .....   Limi .

[EmeraldHead]

3 hours ago, C T said:

Vaccha, whenever I desire, I recollect the manifold previous births, such as one birth, two births, with all modes and all details, thus I recall the manifold previous births. Vaccha, when I desire, with the purified heavenly eye beyond human, see beings disappearing and appearing, in unexalted and exalted states, beautiful and ugly, in good and bad states -- I see beings, according their actions. Vaccha, destroying desires, my mind released and released through wisdom, here and now by myself realising I abide. Vaccha, if it is said, the recluse Gotama knows the three knowledges, saying it thus, you would be saying the right thing and not blaming me falsely’. ……"

this is just the prajna eye isn't it?

[freeform]

11 minutes ago, Nungali said:

someone started pulling his arm ... nope ! Another joined in  on the other arm  ...nope . A third went around the other side, got in the back seat with him , braced his back against the closed door and pushed him with both feet while the other two pulled his arms ....  bloooop !   out he popped onto the footpath .

Thats athletics covered for those three

 

Though obviously lacking for the minister 

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, Sketch said:

You have to love fishing without catching anything 

To really appreciate getting a bite.

 

The pathway is the thing. The goal is an illusion.

 

Well, would not that depend on certain things .

 

Like if you DID catch a fish  or   DIDN"T .....  when  you where  starving.

[Sketch]

I though of that aspect of the thing as soon as I posted.

 

 

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, Sketch said:

At this point, I'm standing by the shore in hip waders.

 

Ah, the endless ancient thought since man first tried fishing ;

 

'If only I had a raft of some sort and could get out there where the real big fish are !

 

 

 

[Sketch]

The main strategy for catching the big ones around here in the Columbia basin is the hog line...a group of small flat boats anchored side by side, stabilized by ropes to one another, in strong current. Seventeen to twenty five feet deep near the Falls? There abouts. The community spirit can be quite high; bitter rivalry and deep friendships. The chinook salmon are a great fish too. 

Edited January 5, 2021 by Sketch

[Nungali]

13 minutes ago, Sketch said:

I though of that aspect of the thing as soon as I posted.

 

 

 

and I thought about you standing out in the water with waist high waders on .....

 

" I hope he doesnt need to pee ."

 

-  such are the postulations of the enlightened

[Sketch]

2 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

and I thought about you standing out in the water with waist high waders on .....

 

" I hope he doesnt need to pee ."

 

-  such are the postulations of the enlightened

At that point in the conversation,  my memory grows hazy. It may not be water i needed waders for.

[Bindi]

51 minutes ago, freeform said:

What is described in your quote is essentially the full spiritual path for both Daoist alchemy and the Jhanna practices were explained to me in Myanmar.

 

(though obviously missing the large collection of methodologies and mechanics that are required to achieve it)

Well this is the first time I have any understanding of why you include Buddhism in your view 🙂