What are your tradition's safeguards against self-delusion or being deluded by others?

[Wilhelm]

2 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

 

Oh jeez yeah I suppose that is 😶💩

You've seen this thread already, eh?

 

 

[Maddie]

10 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

You've seen this thread already, eh?

 

 

Seen it yes. Read it no.

If possible I'll do my best to tie this back into the topic 😌

Edited January 6, 2021 by dmattwads

[Maddie]

34 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

Seen it yes. Read it no.

If possible I'll do my best to tie this back into the topic 😌

Hopefully it's not too conceited too quote yourself but I read the thread and I think I was familiar with the concept but just not by those names if it's the whole developing the jing in the lower dan tien to turn it into qi in the middle dan tien to turn it into shen in the upper dan tien in which in some traditions I believe it is thought that when shen fully developed the upper dan tien then that is somewhat equivalent to enlightenment and now I've brought it full circle 😉.

 

Apologies if that's oversimplified but I know more about Buddhism. Most of my Taoist knowledge is of the medical sort.

 

* edit:

 

This topic is related to something that I was recently pondering and does indeed related to enlightenment which is my recent questioning of what I'm wondering is perhaps maybe a dogmatic approach to enlightenment by Theravada Buddhism. Basically in all of my interactions with monks and practitioners of Buddhism in the last several years the idea of developing the body to achieve awakening would never be taken seriously as possible. Even Bill Brodie says things like if these methods worked why did the Buddha say nothing about them. But what I am recently considering is if the Buddhist method is indeed the only way, or is the Buddhist method more like getting on a train on the east coast heading west and another method like getting on a train on the west coast heading east? Do both meet in the center of the country but merely have different approaches? 

Edited January 6, 2021 by dmattwads

[freeform]

1 hour ago, dmattwads said:

the idea of developing the body to achieve awakening would never be taken seriously as possible.

I realise ‘developing the body to achieve awakening’ is probably just shorthand... but hopefully I’ve made it clear that that’s not really how it works...

 

You're right though... apparently at a certain stage in history, enlightenment was achievable more easily. (This comes from Theravada monks I’ve talked to btw)...

 

But nowadays the circumstances are different (kali yuga) - and when this shift occurred suddenly all these tantric traditions sprang up - because enlightenment without working with Qi became close to impossible. Vajrayana, various yogic traditions, Tibetan traditions, Daoist ones etc all sprung up in response to this shift.

 

If you go to serious Theravada or Forest traditions in Thailand for instance, they have their own tantric approaches - whether through use of empowerments, or external alchemical preparations (popular in Myanmar), or using relics, amulets and all sorts of other methods of cultivation.

 

It’s important to remember that the vast majority of monks are not monks because they’re working towards enlightenment (obviously it’d be nice though)... But in Asia it’s a culturally acceptable ‘lifestyle’. People for instance send their kids off to become monks because they can’t afford to look after them... Some just take up the robes as a sort of job... Some become monks because they get divorced, or suffer some calamity etc etc.

 

Very few actually take up robes with the aim of dedicating their life to becoming enlightened. When I say ‘serious traditions’ that’s what I mean.

[Maddie]

4 minutes ago, freeform said:

I realise ‘developing the body to achieve awakening’ is probably just shorthand... but hopefully I’ve made it clear that that’s not really how it works...

 

You're right though... apparently at a certain stage in history, enlightenment was achievable more easily. (This comes from Theravada monks I’ve talked to btw)...

 

But nowadays the circumstances are different (kali yuga) - and when this shift occurred suddenly all these tantric traditions sprang up - because enlightenment without working with Qi became close to impossible. Vajrayana, various yogic traditions, Tibetan traditions, Daoist ones etc all sprung up in response to this shift.

 

If you go to serious Theravada or Forest traditions in Thailand for instance, they have their own tantric approaches - whether through use of empowerments, or external alchemical preparations (popular in Myanmar), or using relics, amulets and all sorts of other methods of cultivation.

 

It’s important to remember that the vast majority of monks are not monks because they’re working towards enlightenment (obviously it’d be nice though)... But in Asia it’s a culturally acceptable ‘lifestyle’. People for instance send their kids off to become monks because they can’t afford to look after them... Some just take up the robes as a sort of job... Some become monks because they get divorced, or suffer some calamity etc etc.

 

Very few actually take up robes with the aim of dedicating their life to becoming enlightened. When I say ‘serious traditions’ that’s what I mean.

 

This would explain a lot as to why when I was trying the purely Theravada approach things seemed to stagnate even though I was very diligent to do things as instructed.

 

This is a VERY interesting thing to consider!

 

** edit: This makes me think of what Nichiren said about the later day Buddhism and why he found it necessary to introduce chanting Nam Myoho Renge Kyo for these times as things had changed since the time of the Buddha.

Edited January 6, 2021 by dmattwads

[EmeraldHead]

.

Edited January 7, 2021 by EmeraldHead

[Maddie]

30 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

You're right though... apparently at a certain stage in history, enlightenment was achievable more easily. (This comes from Theravada monks I’ve talked to btw)...

 

But nowadays the circumstances are different (kali yuga) - and when this shift occurred suddenly all these tantric traditions sprang up - because enlightenment without working with Qi became close to impossible. Vajrayana, various yogic traditions, Tibetan traditions, Daoist ones etc all sprung up in response to this shift.

 

How much of an effect has the advent of the Kali Yuga or the Later Day of the Law had on cultivation and reaching enlightenment? Why did it used to be easier? Why did new methods become necessary?

[freeform]

7 hours ago, EmeraldHead said:

think a lot of speculating beginners and intermediaries who haven't yet stepped into SAGEHOOD may not be aware of this.

Well that’s certainly me!
 

7 hours ago, EmeraldHead said:

question - if someone doesn't need to reincarnate their body is relatively undeveloped and they posses very minimal siddhis, and those few siddhis are more mental/originating from the exertion of their immortal spirit; is such a practitioner a Xian (immortal)? The highest grade of achievement?

 

The siddhi are not developed as ‘powers’ over and above your capacity... they’re simply the byproduct of ever deeper awakening... Just as ‘breathing’ and a nose would be considered a ‘siddhi’ of the earthly realm.

 

[in fact being able to release karma is indeed considered a siddhi of the earthly realm - and not possible in any other realms]

 

Similarly if you’ve developed and actualised and fully ‘inhabit’ your energy body, you’ll invariably have certain abilities available. As far as I’ve been told.

 

So I don’t imagine it’s possible to become an immortal spirit without the abilities of that state of being - just as you can’t inhabit the earthly realm without the ability to breathe.

 

 

Edited January 7, 2021 by freeform

[Apech]

11 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

 

How much of an effect has the advent of the Kali Yuga or the Later Day of the Law had on cultivation and reaching enlightenment? Why did it used to be easier? Why did new methods become necessary?

 

Buddha predicted this - that his dharma would last a finite time  and slowly decline.  We tend to think in terms of progress and things getting better over time, which is a kind of Christian concept - but in Buddhism it is a story of gradual decline and using stronger 'medicine' to get the same result.  When the Buddha lived is mere presence would sometimes produce thousands of spontaneous awakenings - but now it takes eons through lifetimes according to the mahayana - but vajrayana techniques say one lifetime (but this is rare).  I think the reason is simply that at certain times many beings have ripened karma which makes them ready for awakening - but as it is cyclical this fades over time.

 

I would say tho' that Buddha taught 84,000 collections of dharma - that is his path was very broad incorporating what we now call mahayana and vajrayana - they weren't introduced later it is just that they became more important and were so emphasised more as time progressed.

 

 

[freeform]

16 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

How much of an effect has the advent of the Kali Yuga or the Later Day of the Law had on cultivation and reaching enlightenment? Why did it used to be easier? Why did new methods become necessary?

Ah this is all stuff that I don’t understand myself... I don’t have direct insight into this, so my guesses would simply be just that - guesses.

[anshino23]

2 hours ago, dwai said:

What he proposes is what we call “krama mukti” in Hindu traditions — it is a gradual process, sort of like graduation at different levels of education. It is thoroughly rejected as being the only way,  by the wisdom schools such as Kashmir Shaivism and Advaita Vedanta - which is why the non dual systems are called the “Direct Path” — if you know your true nature, you can bypass all the stuff.

 

How can you say that? Even when Bodhidharma realized his self-nature he had to sit for 9 years facing the wall to transform the nirmanakaya and sambhogakaya. Realizing the Dharmakaya is Awakening, but it's not the end.

 

To transform all three bodies, you need to transform the physical nature too. Why is there such an attachment to being done?  

 

Is it not much more wondrous that there is a continuance path of continual refinement to higher and higher levels? So one can continue to learn more and more and master all dharmas thus being able to help sentient beings everywhere in the universe in higher and higher degrees?

 

 

 

[Maddie]

11 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

Buddha predicted this - that his dharma would last a finite time  and slowly decline.  We tend to think in terms of progress and things getting better over time, which is a kind of Christian concept - but in Buddhism it is a story of gradual decline and using stronger 'medicine' to get the same result.  When the Buddha lived is mere presence would sometimes produce thousands of spontaneous awakenings - but now it takes eons through lifetimes according to the mahayana - but vajrayana techniques say one lifetime (but this is rare).  I think the reason is simply that at certain times many beings have ripened karma which makes them ready for awakening - but as it is cyclical this fades over time.

 

I would say tho' that Buddha taught 84,000 collections of dharma - that is his path was very broad incorporating what we now call mahayana and vajrayana - they weren't introduced later it is just that they became more important and were so emphasised more as time progressed.

 

 

 

This is one of those topics that come along every now and then that cause you to just stop and stare at the floor and rethink your life choices.

 

Edited January 6, 2021 by dmattwads

[dwai]

8 minutes ago, anshino23 said:

 

How can you say that? Even when Bodhidharma realized his self-nature he had to sit for 9 years facing the wall to transform the nirmanakaya and sambhogakaya. Realizing the Dharmakaya is Awakening, but it's not the end.

 

To transform all three bodies, you need to transform the physical nature too. Why is there such an attachment to being done?  

 

Is it not much more wondrous that there is a continuance path of continual refinement to higher and higher levels? So one can continue to learn more and more and master all dharmas thus being able to help sentient beings everywhere in the universe in higher and higher degrees?

 

 

 

I didn't say it won't take time.  

I didn't say it was easy either  

Each of us will operate on, and deal with the karmic influences we have brought with us into this manifestation. If someone needs to work on their physicality, so be it. it is not necessary for liberation (beyond a certain point). 

 

P.S. 

What three bodies? Those that arise in Awareness? They rise and they fall. In reality, the three bodies are nothing apart from awareness itself. 

 

What levels? Those that arise in, are made up off and dissolve back into awareness? They are nothing apart from awareness. 

 

Who needs to evolve? The bound being, at varying levels of bondage? Those are only appearances in awareness -- actually no one is really bound, and no one becomes free  (I'm sure that'll raise a few hackles....)

Edited January 6, 2021 by dwai

[Apech]

2 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

 

This is one of those topics that come along every now and then that cause you to just stop and stare at the floor and rethink your life choices.

 

 

... and the floor is no help - it just stares back at you

[Maddie]

1 minute ago, Apech said:

 

... and the floor is no help - it just stares back at you

The floor and I make it work

[Maddie]

So I'm going to assume that the Kali Yuga and the third age of Buddhism taught by Nichiren and others during his time are the same or at least very similar. As stated this would seem to be the reason that tantric techniques became more prominent as well as the idea that Nichiren and the Hare Krishnas  propagated that now days chanting was the primary method. Not trying to hijack the thread but this does seem relevant to the topic of enlightenment.

[EmeraldHead]

15 minutes ago, dwai said:

What levels? Those that arise in, are made up off and dissolve back into awareness? They are nothing apart from awareness. 

 

We also don't know if the this 'Trikaya' model is all there is. Perhaps evolution is infinite, we continue to evolve after becoming immortal.

[Apech]

3 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

So I'm going to assume that the Kali Yuga and the third age of Buddhism taught by Nichiren and others during his time are the same or at least very similar. As stated this would seem to be the reason that tantric techniques became more prominent as well as the idea that Nichiren and the Hare Krishnas  propagated that now days chanting was the primary method. Not trying to hijack the thread but this does seem relevant to the topic of enlightenment.

 

I think maybe you can add in a fourth way (which may be a subset of the third) which is direct realisation of the nature of Mind as in Dzogchen, Mahamudra, Lamdre ... and some non Buddhist ways too I guess.

 

 

[Maddie]

9 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

I think maybe you can add in a fourth way (which may be a subset of the third) which is direct realisation of the nature of Mind as in Dzogchen, Mahamudra, Lamdre ... and some non Buddhist ways too I guess.

 

 

I don't know if I'm familiar with those specifically. Is that a meditation approach?

[dwai]

20 minutes ago, EmeraldHead said:

We also don't know if the this 'Trikaya' model is all there is. Perhaps evolution is infinite, we continue to evolve after becoming immortal.

Who becomes immortal?  

[EmeraldHead]

1 minute ago, dwai said:

Who becomes immortal?  

That's what I saw saying in my previous post.

 

Those who don't need to rebirth/reincarnate anymore see the world differently and understand totally different dynamics that we cannot, while in the matrix.

 

I don't know what I am in the true existence. So how can I answer? If I go back internally in awareness, am I really answering the question or using it to guide myself into an exercise?

 

As far as I know such an exercise leads to what is called Sambogakaya realms. So like:

 

Nirmanakaya - concentration, one pointness, or outwardsness

Sambogakaya - awareness of self, or awareness reverse on itself

Dharmakaya - awareness 360 on everything, "subjectivity and objectivity merged"

[Maddie]

I wonder if different and various ages would (or would not) explain the different "fads" civilization goes thorough?

 

Go back a while and things like Pyramids and Stonehenge were being built.

Then when you read the Hebrew bible and the Greek classics its all about animal sacrifices.

Then at the time of the Buddha and the other sects in India meditation is the rage.

Now it seems to be tantra and chanting?

 

I wonder if this is a thing?

[Limahong]

4 hours ago, dmattwads said:

Yet I had always been told since I was young that he was perfect, flawless, and without fault This was one of the primary factors that caused me to lose faith in the tradition in which I was raised.

 

Hi dmattwads,

 

Give Him a break.

 

Are you perfect?

 

Have you lost faith in yourself?

 

- Anand

 

 

[dwai]

14 minutes ago, EmeraldHead said:

That's what I saw saying in my previous post.

 

Those who don't need to rebirth/reincarnate anymore see the world differently and understand totally different dynamics that we cannot, while in the matrix.

 

I don't know what I am in the true existence. So how can I answer?

What do you think will enable you to find out? 

Quote

 

If I go back internally in awareness, am I really answering the question or using it to guide myself into an exercise?

That is a very good question. The only way to find out is....well....to find out by inquiry  

Quote

 

As far as I know such an exercise leads to what is called Sambogakaya realms. So like:

 

Nirmanakaya - concentration, one pointness, or outwardsness

Sambogakaya - awareness of self, or awareness reverse on itself

Dharmakaya - awareness 360 on everything, "subjectivity and objectivity merged"

These are not separate "things" per se. A wave (nirmanakaya) is not separate from the ocean (sambhogakaya), and both are nothing apart from water (dharmakaya). Self-realization does not lead to any "realm" per se. It results in your understanding that you ARE awareness itself, and every "thing" that appears and disappears, are phenomena within you.

 

This realization is very subtle. In fact, it is so subtle that 99% will miss it. Among the 1% who "get it", 99% will reject it as unimportant. The nature of the mind is to land on, and latch onto "things" (objects). So, when we see that who we truly are, can never become an object of knowledge, the natural reaction is to reject it as "nothing", or "not important". 

 

If we are to continue with the metaphor, who seeks immortality? The wave? The ocean? Water is already immortal. When you realize you ARE water itself, what immortality would you care for?

Edited January 6, 2021 by dwai

[Maddie]

7 minutes ago, Limahong said:

 

Hi dmattwads,

 

Give Him a break.

 

Are you perfect?

 

Have you lost faith in yourself?

 

- Anand

 

 

 

No I'm not, but the difference is I don't claim to be, nor do I demand everyone worship just me and no one else because I'm better than everyone else, nor do I threaten to send people to hell for not recognizing my self proclaimed awesomeness.

 

If I did demand that then I better actually be perfect.