What are your tradition's safeguards against self-delusion or being deluded by others?

[Limahong]

2 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

No I'm not, but the difference is I don't claim to be, nor do I demand everyone worship just me and no one else because I'm better than everyone else, nor do I threaten to send people to hell for not recognizing my self proclaimed awesomeness.

 

If I did demand that then I better actually be perfect.

 

Your own perception of Him relative to just yourself?

 

When you are not perfect ~ can your perceptions be called into question?

 

 

 

[Maddie]

Just now, Limahong said:

 

Your own perception of Him relative to just yourself?

 

When you are not perfect ~ can your perceptions be called into question?

 

 

 

 

No, the whole reason I mentioned this example in the first place is due to me evaluating God in relation to the teachings of enlightened behavior that is contained in the suttas. When using this comparison God falls far short.

 

He describes himself as a jealous God.

 

Jealousy is not the characteristic of an enlightened being.

 

It's not about me.

[freeform]

Non-dual paths were the obvious next step for me after that experience with my teacher.

 

I travelled with a friend to various ashrams and groups...

 

Maybe I was unlucky but what I found was typified by a teacher that clearly had some attainment, with either: 

 

1) a completely deluded, highly narcissistic congregation (particularly the inner circles of the closest devotees.)

 

or

 

2) Lovely, sweet group of people completely tranced out, ungrounded with their heads in the clouds.

 

This happened over and over...

 

I’ve never seen as much creepy behaviour as I did in the non-dual community (both western and Indian)

 

And all the feet kissing and adulation didn’t even figure in my equation - I understand the idea of surrendering the self to a representation of something higher.
 

I’m talking about the questionable use of funds and approaches to collect ‘donations’, the treatment of any discerning questions, all the gaslighting, constant mystical nonsensical talk (particularly from the senior followers)... “You’re too attached to your mind brother” type of crap when you raise something... The constant misdirection “maybe you should search within why (the idea that the guru is sleeping with his students) is so vexing for you”...

 

Oh yeah and “who is the I that feels this way” is particular favourite of mine 

 

Eventually it became a running joke with my friend and I - where we took bets whether the guru we’re visiting would be a 60-something dude with a 20-something blonde girlfriend... (it was foolish to bet against that).  
 

Oh and the late night ‘talks’ and ‘shaktipats’ for the select few (only the good looking young girls (and boys) of course) that was a common one too.

 

For the question of discernment about a teacher, it became clear that “half-right” was a hell of a lot worse than just plain “wrong”.

 

Because there was generally some sort of attainment in the teacher - whether charisma, or an ability to create a really palpable spiritual presence. 
 

I saw many smart people stuck in these groups... and had it been my first time experiencing something like transmission, maybe I’d have been one of them too...

 

But these experiences sharpened my discernment.

 

Look at the senior students... you’ll see everything playing out there.

 

———

 

There’s a fair few highly dodgy Neigong teachers too, mind you! 
 

But at least they’re actually quite easy to spot - because they tend not to hide the fact at all (usually rather proud of it actually)
 

Whether it’s whoring and womanising or obsession with money or booze, it’s quite plain to see... and because the extra Qi tends to enflame their personality it makes them into a kind of over the top caricature of a person (Gary Clyman comes to mind).

 

The spiritual world is a real pit if you go looking! So easy to get caught up in it. Discernment is so important in the spiritual world particularly.

 

 

[Limahong]

3 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

It's not about me.

 

Your postings reflect on you as "me"?

 

 

[Maddie]

11 minutes ago, Limahong said:

 

Your own perception of Him relative to just yourself?

 

When you are not perfect ~ can your perceptions be called into question?

 

 

 

 

You were asking about "my perception" so the word "me" seems applicable.

[Apech]

39 minutes ago, dwai said:

Who becomes immortal?  

 

Me obviously

[Apech]

47 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

I don't know if I'm familiar with those specifically. Is that a meditation approach?

 

It's a big subject ... they have meditation approaches but that's not exactly what they are.

[Limahong]

1 hour ago, dmattwads said:

You were asking about "my perception" so the word "me" seems applicable.

 

Hi dmattwads,

 

I am asking these...

 

Your own perception of Him relative to just yourself?

 

When you are not perfect ~ can your perceptions be called into question?

 

(Your own accentuations ~ you, your and yourself.)

 

- Anand

 

 

Edited January 6, 2021 by Limahong
Enhancement

[dwai]

10 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

Me obviously

But you are already immortal 🤷‍♂️

[Apech]

Just now, dwai said:

But you are already immortal 🤷‍♂️

 

Nobody's perfect.

[dwai]

Just now, Apech said:

 

Nobody's perfect.

That’s right — no body is perfect  

[Limahong]

4 minutes ago, dwai said:

But you are already immortal.

 

Please elaborate.

 

 

[Maddie]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

 

I think maybe you can add in a fourth way (which may be a subset of the third) which is direct realisation of the nature of Mind as in Dzogchen, Mahamudra, Lamdre ... and some non Buddhist ways too I guess.

 

 

 

I guess another method that seems to be popular especially in Asian Buddhism is chanting sutras. I don't quite understand the benefit of chanting something that you don't understand, but it seems to be an important aspect of the religion in Asia, and the chanting of the sutra is said to have beneficial aspects.

[dwai]

1 minute ago, Limahong said:

 

Please elaborate.

 

 

it’s very serious, very difficult knowledge to acquire — so difficult that it takes thousands of lifetimes to learn. Send me 100 baskets of dark chocolate and I’ll tell you (in secret) 😜

 

 

 

 

 

No,  but seriously, our Self is already immortal - in the sense that it was never born, it will never die. Realize who you are, and you’ll know too  

[Sketch]

5 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

 

I guess another method that seems to be popular especially in Asian Buddhism is chanting sutras. I don't quite understand the benefit of chanting something that you don't understand, but it seems to be an important aspect of the religion in Asia, and the chanting of the sutra is said to have beneficial aspects.

Not all music has lyrics

Not all lyrics are words

Some sounds are their meaning

 

(Not to mention situations where the connection is a sympathetic one)

Edited January 6, 2021 by Sketch

[forestofclarity]

Not per Tibetan Buddhism. You can reach full Buddhahood in the bardo of clear light. In fact, it is stated that it is easier without the limitations of the body. Nor is Nirmanakaya is limited to the physical body. Finally, many masters states that if one is focused on the key principle, then the body spontaneously transforms. 

 

The problem as I see it is that from a Buddhist POV, anything that arises will pass, because it is conditioned and depends on causes and conditions. Even the so-called immortal gods die. The only exceptions through the scriptures are space and nirvana. 

 

I don't think there is an attachment against transforming the physical body, but it is stated in many scriptures that transformation of the physical body may be unrelated to enlightenment. Physical cultivation when used is typically viewed as a means (to cultivate wisdom) rather than an end. 

 

1 hour ago, anshino23 said:

 

How can you say that? Even when Bodhidharma realized his self-nature he had to sit for 9 years facing the wall to transform the nirmanakaya and sambhogakaya. Realizing the Dharmakaya is Awakening, but it's not the end.

 

To transform all three bodies, you need to transform the physical nature too. Why is there such an attachment to being done?  

 

Is it not much more wondrous that there is a continuance path of continual refinement to higher and higher levels? So one can continue to learn more and more and master all dharmas thus being able to help sentient beings everywhere in the universe in higher and higher degrees?

 

 

 

 

[anshino23]

31 minutes ago, freeform said:

2) Lovely, sweet group of people completely tranced out, ungrounded with their heads in the clouds.

 

This happened over and over...

 

I’ve never seen as much creepy behaviour as I did in the non-dual community (both western and Indian)

 

And all the feet kissing and adulation didn’t even figure in my equation - I understand the idea of surrendering the self to a representation of something higher.
 

I’m talking about the questionable use of funds and approaches to collect ‘donations’, the treatment of any discerning questions, all the gaslighting, constant mystical nonsensical talk (particularly from the senior followers)... “You’re too attached to your mind brother” type of crap when you raise something... The constant misdirection “maybe you should search within why (the idea that the guru is sleeping with his students) is so vexing for you”...

 

Oh yeah and “who is the I that feels this way” is particular favourite of mine 

 

Eventually it became a running joke with my friend and I - where we took bets whether the guru we’re visiting would be a 60-something dude with a 20-something blonde girlfriend... (it was foolish to bet against that).  
 

Oh and the late night ‘talks’ and ‘shaktipats’ for the select few (only the good looking young girls (and boys) of course) that was a common one too.

 

For the question of discernment about a teacher, it became clear that “half-right” was a hell of a lot worse than just plain “wrong”.

 

I believe the spiritual group I was in was of the latter type. The worst part was that through gradual indoctrination and introduction - all your thoughts, all your ideas, and all your questions were essentially marked as "intelligences" leading you astray and destroying your path and merit. It was quite brilliant, to call them "intelligences" - and then saying they had to be discarded! The constant fear and the being in and out of a group like that was really stressful. Interestingly, as soon as I dropped out of said group, all kinds of backstories were made up to explain why - possession was a big one, another one was too poor merit. The teacher in question also made lots of alchemical potions and supplements and sold them for a lot of money, but they never arrived. Whenever you questioned him about it, it would always be a great response like, "Oh, we just moved to a new destination, but we're restocked now. I'll put in something really special for you for your wait " And you'd get your hopes up again. Then when you inquired months later you don't hear back. When asking the other members about something like this they say - "it's because it's not the right time for you". 

 

When on retreats the teacher was able to create an incredible atmosphere. He has a martial arts background so his movements are great, and he's also built lots of muscle so he's an intimidating character in person and quite intense. So wears all black and looks like a sort of samurai, and then comes two hours late to our "morning meditation" meeting. Then when asked why he was late, he deflects and says, "It was my impression that you guys wanted to relax a little before we got started. I'm not sure how much you guys can handle?" When at the same time all of us were essentially screaming for more time with him.

 

Then the story between the "disciples" and practictioners in the group became that he was operating on a special time that was based on the Divine Mother - everything was happening perfectly and on Her time based directly on flowing with the Dao. And that we should be grateful to have Zifagong (sponteanous movements) initiated by him as it was a divine power entering our bodies and having us roll around on the floor and screaming at the top of our lungs for hours on end. 

 

Your last sentence really says it all to me. I nearly dropped out of medical school and may not have finished my degree if my inner discernment/prajna-eye didn't pry me away from all the glorious promises of quick enlightenment and stream-entry if only I could sacrifice my time for The Mission™.

[dwai]

52 minutes ago, freeform said:

Non-dual paths were the obvious next step for me after that experience with my teacher.

 

I travelled with a friend to various ashrams and groups...

 

Maybe I was unlucky but what I found was typified by a teacher that clearly had some attainment, with either: 

 

1) a completely deluded, highly narcissistic congregation (particularly the inner circles of the closest devotees.)

 

or

 

2) Lovely, sweet group of people completely tranced out, ungrounded with their heads in the clouds.

 

This happened over and over...

 

I’ve never seen as much creepy behaviour as I did in the non-dual community (both western and Indian)

 

And all the feet kissing and adulation didn’t even figure in my equation - I understand the idea of surrendering the self to a representation of something higher.
 

I’m talking about the questionable use of funds and approaches to collect ‘donations’, the treatment of any discerning questions, all the gaslighting, constant mystical nonsensical talk (particularly from the senior followers)... “You’re too attached to your mind brother” type of crap when you raise something... The constant misdirection “maybe you should search within why (the idea that the guru is sleeping with his students) is so vexing for you”...

 

Oh yeah and “who is the I that feels this way” is particular favourite of mine 

 

Eventually it became a running joke with my friend and I - where we took bets whether the guru we’re visiting would be a 60-something dude with a 20-something blonde girlfriend... (it was foolish to bet against that).  
 

Oh and the late night ‘talks’ and ‘shaktipats’ for the select few (only the good looking young girls (and boys) of course) that was a common one too.

 

For the question of discernment about a teacher, it became clear that “half-right” was a hell of a lot worse than just plain “wrong”.

 

Because there was generally some sort of attainment in the teacher - whether charisma, or an ability to create a really palpable spiritual presence. 
 

I saw many smart people stuck in these groups... and had it been my first time experiencing something like transmission, maybe I’d have been one of them too...

 

But these experiences sharpened my discernment.

 

Look at the senior students... you’ll see everything playing out there.

 

———

 

There’s a fair few highly dodgy Neigong teachers too, mind you! 
 

But at least they’re actually quite easy to spot - because they tend not to hide the fact at all (usually rather proud of it actually)
 

Whether it’s whoring and womanising or obsession with money or booze, it’s quite plain to see... and because the extra Qi tends to enflame their personality it makes them into a kind of over the top caricature of a person (Gary Clyman comes to mind).

 

The spiritual world is a real pit if you go looking! So easy to get caught up in it. Discernment is so important in the spiritual world particularly.

 

 

The best practice of non dual wisdom is done alone. There is no need for ashrams and satsangs. If you have access to a realized teacher to answer questions as they arise, that’s all you need.  To repeat a cliche — Truth is mostly a solitary path. 
 

One of the most effective ‘’modern” schools of Advaita Vedanta is the Chinmaya Mission - they have hundreds (if not thousands) of centers all over the world. One does develop a sense of community there. They put a lot of emphasis on tradition, service, a wholesome way to live. There is usually a Swami who is an ordained monk, who is the spiritual head of the Center, and one or more Acharyas who are the teachers that have gone through the formal and most rigorous training. They act as friends, guides and so on. Get caught up with ashram hopping,  etc, and ymmv. 

Edited January 6, 2021 by dwai

[Limahong]

16 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

I guess another method that seems to be popular especially in Asian Buddhism is chanting sutras.

 

Hi dmattwads,

 

"... especially in Asian Buddhism is chanting sutras." Why especially ~ Asian...?

 

 

 

- Anand

[Limahong]

27 minutes ago, Sketch said:

Not all music has lyrics

Not all lyrics are words

Some sounds are their meaning

 

Beautiful. Thank you.

 

 

[Sketch]

This connection between the breath, the voice and the sacred is a lot of my focus.

 

 

[Maddie]

4 minutes ago, Limahong said:

 

Hi dmattwads,

 

"... especially in Asian Buddhism is chanting sutras." Why especially ~ Asian...?

 

 

 

- Anand

 

Simply from my experience. Westerners tend to be more dismissive of things like chanting sutras in general, and my time visiting predominately Asian temples this type of practice was much more common. 

[Limahong]

1 minute ago, dmattwads said:

Simply from my experience.

 

Simply one perception ~ you, your and yourself?

 

 

 

 

[Sketch]

 

 

[Sketch]

Poetry, folk song, western sacred music, the Blues, the same elements of sacred sound survive in each culture. In each voice.