What are your tradition's safeguards against self-delusion or being deluded by others?

[EmeraldHead]

24 minutes ago, anshino23 said:

my inner discernment/prajna-eye

bro no, it's not intuition, and it's really hard and secret to develop.

[Limahong]

4 minutes ago, Sketch said:

 

 

Hi Sketch,

 

The dogs outside my house ~ bark ang howl.

 

I am scared and I am going to sleep without a sound...

 

 

Good night.

 

- Anand

 

 

[anshino23]

5 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

Not per Tibetan Buddhism. You can reach full Buddhahood in the bardo of clear light. In fact, it is stated that it is easier without the limitations of the body. Nor is Nirmanakaya is limited to the physical body. Finally, many masters states that if one is focused on the key principle, then the body spontaneously transforms. 

 

The problem as I see it is that from a Buddhist POV, anything that arises will pass, because it is conditioned and depends on causes and conditions. Even the so-called immortal gods die. The only exceptions through the scriptures are space and nirvana. 

 

I don't think there is an attachment against transforming the physical body, but it is stated in many scriptures that transformation of the physical body may be unrelated to enlightenment. Physical cultivation when used is typically viewed as a means (to cultivate wisdom) rather than an end. 

 

As I understand it, it's really not about the physical body - it's about shedding it. To shed it, you must rise above it. To rise above it, you must transform it. In the Buddhist tradition I learned from, this is why it's said that if one wants stream-entry, one must put cultivation at the forefront of everything else. Why? Because one must shed this coarse physical body - and along with it, everything ephemeral and material.

 

@dmattwads Bill Bodri actually changed his views dramatically over the years and explains this very well in his new books too. He's all about transforming the body now and using tantric methods to do so. I remember a few years back when I asked him what he recommended he strongly recommended finding a Daoist or Hindu school and doing Qi-cultivation until the physical body has been fully transformed. An excerpt describes this quite well: 

 

"As previously explained, the flip side of body cultivation - which refers to consciousness rather than essences - is to say that people are trying to mentally cultivate a higher stage of mental purity or "emptiness". Most all schools talk about pristine consciousness, pristine awareness, emptiness, no-thought and empty mind but this is the flip side to the body attainments. They don't emphasize the body attainments because they don't want people to get attached to form, but spiritual cultivation is a mind-body affair. Both mind and body must be cultivated on the spiritual path; an over-emphasis on mind will cause individuals to neglect inner energy cultivation for years, which is to their disadvantage while an over-emphasis on life-force (qi or prana) can lead to clinging and thus also halt progress. 

 

Physical bodies on every plane of existence are composed of essences/substances, and the concomitant (naturally accompanying) consciousness for a body has the same energy nature as that body's substances for that plane. A consciousness or mind needs a physical body vessel to support its existence. If you attain a higher level body vessel then its concomitant purity of consciousness (degree of pristine awareness) will correspond to the greater purity and refinement of that biophysical mechanism. At the level of the perfected samhogakaya, the concomitant empty or unmanifest state of consciousness is considered to be the original nature but this is just a way of speaking rather than the truth. 

 

To achieve a more pristine consciousness you therefore need a body composed of purer essences whose energy channels have far less entanglements, knots or blockages since obstructions produce errant energy flows that you rise to random thoughts rather than empty clarity. In short, you need to cultivate both mind and body on the spiritual trail, if you want to attain the higher heavenly realms of being which can be talked about in terms of "Pure Abodes" or the first, second, third and fourth dhyana. 

 

In spiritual cultivation we can say you are trying to cultivate a more subtle or purer state of consciousness which is larely free of random, wandering, emandering thoughts. With each stage your mind/consciousness becomes more clear, calm and quiet until it seems perfectly empty, crystal clear and pristinely aware. Only a purer body of cleansed energy channels can allow this to come about. Therefore instead of saying you are trying to cultivate a higher consicousness we can also say that you are trying to cultivate a purer body whose energy and channels support a higher level of purity of consciousness. 

 

To go up the spiritual latter, devas themselves need to cultivate yet higher stages. These correspond to more subtle spiritual bodies made of more refined essenes. This is the true spirtual path - you can talk about it in terms of bodies (essences or substances, spheres of manifestation or planes of being) or consciousness. This is one of the purposes of religious spiritual practice but few people seem to understand this. These facts explain why the Vajrayana school of Buddhism calls the deva body (subtle body) the impure illusory body, namely a body made of impure Qi. Once the Qi of this body becomes purified a deva can then, at will, generate a higher purified illusory body out of this lower shell of our physical nature... And on it goes. [...] Everytime you achieve a new body you break away from or "extinquish" or leave behind the old body, which Buddhism calls "sheath", "aggregate" or "skandha". The previous body still exists as long as you live, but you then live centered in the higher body and identify with it while retaining the existence of each lower body (as an appendage) until its karma is exhausted. 

 

The higher your spiritual body, the higher the plane of existence (and spiritual realms) you can reach. Advanced spiritual bodies can freely travel the spiritual realms, and have various powers of mastery over the energies of the lower realms they transcend. This is why various masters, gurus, prophets, saints and sages - depending on how many body they have achieved - are known to have miraculous powers that work on various levels."

[freeform]

30 minutes ago, anshino23 said:

I believe the spiritual group I was in was of the latter type.

*sigh*

 

yeah. I was going to say I’m sorry that has happened to you - but in a way it probably led you to where you’re at now... so in a way it was all a learning experience.

 

I’m glad you got out - and didn’t drop out of medical school!

 

Indeed it’s true that ‘half-right’ is the bane of the spiritual world - for so many reasons.

 

(it’s also the bane of self discernment!)

 

There are so many half-baked teachers in the world. The worst thing is to get off the path part way through - and then beginning to teach 🙈

 

Its the classic story - student develops some skill or attainment, but leaves his or her tradition way before they’ve understood what’s what... Then they go and become a guru... and slowly but surely become a bit of a monster.

 

Whether it’s through self delusion (thinking themselves as more developed than they are) - Or it’s simply selfishness (hey I could make money with this!)

 

Either way, they simply don’t realise the enormous responsibility of leading a student through a spiritual process... and the massive ramifications of leading them astray in this way. Intentionally (or even just through ignorance) harming a student that has come to you for spiritual growth generates really heavy karma (apparently).

 

When I first came to traditional Daoism, I found all the hierarchical lineage stuff kind of stifling. All these levels, all these attainments, tests, discipleships etc etc.
 

But more and more I’m beginning to understand just how important it is to remain within a structure where your peers and those senior to you keep a watch over your progress.

 

Something like being able to set off zifagong in people comes relatively early... and when various awakening experiences start up, it’s so easy to delude yourself and think you’re enlightened...

 

It’s so helpful to get humbled and fail a few tests and it’s imperative to have a teacher say - no you have more to do, or yes you have my blessing to teach this and this but not that.

 

That’s the value in tradition - as stuffy as it might seem from the outside...

 

So I’m glad you’re where you are @anshino23  

 

As difficult and slow as your training might feel now - it’s far better than falling into a trap set by a spiritual narcissist!

[EmeraldHead]

2 hours ago, dwai said:

The bound being, at varying levels of bondage? Those are only appearances in awareness -- actually no one is really bound, and no one becomes free  (I'm sure that'll raise a few hackles....)

 

1 hour ago, dwai said:

1 hour ago, EmeraldHead said:

I don't know what I am in the true existence. So how can I answer?

What do you think will enable you to find out? 

 

I think this is where a lot of us disagree. there ARE steps about in awareness.

 

Are you 'exercising' that immortal awareness in your daily life? You can says it is always there...but this doesn't mean it is not something you cultivate...something that you Grow!

 

Buddhism says all beings have a 'buddha-seed', that is seed is 'sleeping'. unlike the physical body it will not decay, but it does not mean it is a not a singular cell bacteria in normal people!

 

1 hour ago, dwai said:

Water is already immortal. When you realize you ARE water itself, what immortality would you care for?

Are we God, the ultimate creator immortal 'being' or are we 'a' immortal being?

 

[anshino23]

1 minute ago, freeform said:

So I’m glad you’re where you are @anshino23  

 

As difficult and slow as your training might feel now - it’s far better than falling into a trap set by a spiritual narcissist!

 

Me too. So very grateful... Couldn't agree more  

 

Quote

Its the classic story - student develops some skill or attainment, but leaves his or her tradition way before they’ve understood what’s what... Then they go and become a guru... and slowly but surely become a bit of a monster.

 

In fact it's interesting because when I did some Google-fu on the teacher (before he then deleted everything about him from every site publically available) I found he had posted in many public forums for years describing his experiences with energy work. And that he was just beginning to teach some people and was just going through the kundalini process at that time (according to him). I don't even think he necessarily wanted it to end up like this at first, but then he probably got fascinated with playing with energy and being able to control it. I also know he talked about authentic phenomena before creating the school such as the Amrita, and I do believe he had attained some degree of transformation. One of the weirdest things I saw was a guy going into so intense Zifagong during a retreat where he literally couldn't stop moving for hours where we were all centered around him watching him squirm around on the floor and saying intense sounds, and the teacher using all kinds of mudras and moving his body in snake-like manner while seated in half-lotus on the floor, showing us all how he was entering his subtle body and moving the energy flows. He also of course chased devils out of our bodies using Tantric methods and walked around with a Vajra. So it was very thereatrical the whole thing... Quite perfect when I think back. I later came around and read some of Robert Green's 40 Laws of Power and realized how perfectly he fulfilled every one of them. Some good ones as examples are: 

 

Law 17: Keep others in suspended terror: cultivate an air of unpredictability. Humans are creatures of habit with an insatiable need to see familiarity in other people’s actions.  Your predictability gives them a sense of control.  Turn the tables: Be deliberately unpredictable.  Behavior that seems to have no consistency or purpose will keep them off-balance, and they will wear themselves out trying to explain your moves.  Taken to an extreme, this strategy can intimidate and terrorize.

 

Law 35: Master the art of timing. Never seem to be in a hurry – hurrying betrays a lack of control over yourself, and over time.  Always seem patient, as if you know that everything will come to you eventually.  Become a detective of the right moment; sniff out the spirit of the times, the trends that will carry you to power.  Learn to stand back when the time is not yet ripe, and to strike fiercely when it has reached fruition.

 

Law 37: Create compelling spectacles. Striking imagery and grand symbolic gestures create the aura of power – everyone responds to them.  Stage spectacles for those around you, then full of arresting visuals and radiant symbols that heighten your presence.  Dazzled by appearances, no one will notice what you are really doing.

 

Law 27: Play on people’s need to create a cultlike following. People have an overwhelming desire to believe in something.  Become the focal point of such desire by offering them a cause, a new faith to follow.  Keep your words vague but full of promise; emphasize enthusiasm over rationality and clear thinking. Give your new disciples rituals to perform, ask them to make sacrifices on your behalf.  In the absence of organized religion and grand causes, your new belief system will bring you untold power.

 

Law 32: Play to people’s fantasies. The truth is often avoided because it is ugly and unpleasant.  Never appeal to truth and reality unless you are prepared for the anger that comes for disenchantment.  Life is so harsh and distressing that people who can manufacture romance or conjure up fantasy are like oases in the desert:  Everyone flocks to them. There is great power in tapping into the fantasies of the masses.

 

Law 25: Re-create yourself. Do not accept the roles that society foists on you.  Re-create yourself by forging a new identity, one that commands attention and never bores the audience.  Be the master of your own image rather than letting others define it for you. Incorporate dramatic devices into your public gestures and actions – your power will be enhanced and your character will seem larger than life.

 

Law 30: Make your accomplishments seem effortless. Your actions must seem natural and executed with ease.  All the toil and practice that go into them, and also all the clever tricks, must be concealed.  When you act, act effortlessly, as if you could do much more.  Avoid the temptation of revealing how hard you work – it only raises questions.  Teach no one your tricks or they will be used against you.

[freeform]

42 minutes ago, dwai said:

If you have access to a realized teacher to answer questions as they arise, that’s all you need.

That certainly sounds like a much better approach than what I’ve seen... 

 

Though how to know whether a teacher is indeed realised - or just half-baked?

 

44 minutes ago, dwai said:

Get caught up with ashram hopping,  etc, and ymmv

Thank goodness I hopped! Otherwise I could’ve wasted the rest of my life at one of these places.

 

———

 

There was a school I came across (from an Indonesian Hindu tradition - but not non-duality) that used zifagong - it was all day every day for 8hrs and chanting the gurus name under your breath while looking at him or his picture...

 

People would get ill, throw up, get blisters, all sorts of quite serious medical issues - and this was all said to be ‘process’ - which meant karma was being worked out through these afflictions...

 

The seniors were all gaunt, drawn, gray and tired...

 

It wasn’t ‘process’ - they were just making themselves ill by perpetuating zifagong.

 

Half right is so much worse than just plain wrong.

[Maddie]

28 minutes ago, anshino23 said:

@dmattwads Bill Bodri actually changed his views dramatically over the years and explains this very well in his new books too. He's all about transforming the body now and using tantric methods to do so. I remember a few years back when I asked him what he recommended he strongly recommended finding a Daoist or Hindu school and doing Qi-cultivation until the physical body has been fully transformed. An excerpt describes this quite well: 

 

 

That is very interesting as I was totally unaware of that. I wonder what caused him to change his mind?

 

* today has been a day of shockers lol

Edited January 6, 2021 by dmattwads

[EmeraldHead]

Guys and Girls, you don't have to go step by step. You can even cultivate multiple steps simultaneously, or at least gather their respective chi simultaneously without having a strong kung fu achievement in their respective bodies. When you get those respective bodies in your cultivation you will have a strong foundation and possibly be halfway finished or something like that.

 

Modern technology is a blessing as well. You can blast all kinds of energies in pictures/videos, they all are detected by cameras. You can make an energy video and keep your phone/tablet with the video on blasting you thourghout the day or while you're working at your desk, whatever. Then you can devote your free time to adjusting to that level and further merging rather than acquiring raw materials; you can spend the time to build the house.

[Maddie]

57 minutes ago, anshino23 said:

 

"As previously explained, the flip side of body cultivation - which refers to consciousness rather than essences - is to say that people are trying to mentally cultivate a higher stage of mental purity or "emptiness". Most all schools talk about pristine consciousness, pristine awareness, emptiness, no-thought and empty mind but this is the flip side to the body attainments. They don't emphasize the body attainments because they don't want people to get attached to form, but spiritual cultivation is a mind-body affair. Both mind and body must be cultivated on the spiritual path; an over-emphasis on mind will cause individuals to neglect inner energy cultivation for years, which is to their disadvantage while an over-emphasis on life-force (qi or prana) can lead to clinging and thus also halt progress. 

 

Physical bodies on every plane of existence are composed of essences/substances, and the concomitant (naturally accompanying) consciousness for a body has the same energy nature as that body's substances for that plane. A consciousness or mind needs a physical body vessel to support its existence. If you attain a higher level body vessel then its concomitant purity of consciousness (degree of pristine awareness) will correspond to the greater purity and refinement of that biophysical mechanism. At the level of the perfected samhogakaya, the concomitant empty or unmanifest state of consciousness is considered to be the original nature but this is just a way of speaking rather than the truth. 

 

To achieve a more pristine consciousness you therefore need a body composed of purer essences whose energy channels have far less entanglements, knots or blockages since obstructions produce errant energy flows that you rise to random thoughts rather than empty clarity. In short, you need to cultivate both mind and body on the spiritual trail, if you want to attain the higher heavenly realms of being which can be talked about in terms of "Pure Abodes" or the first, second, third and fourth dhyana. 

 

In spiritual cultivation we can say you are trying to cultivate a more subtle or purer state of consciousness which is larely free of random, wandering, emandering thoughts. With each stage your mind/consciousness becomes more clear, calm and quiet until it seems perfectly empty, crystal clear and pristinely aware. Only a purer body of cleansed energy channels can allow this to come about. Therefore instead of saying you are trying to cultivate a higher consicousness we can also say that you are trying to cultivate a purer body whose energy and channels support a higher level of purity of consciousness. 

 

To go up the spiritual latter, devas themselves need to cultivate yet higher stages. These correspond to more subtle spiritual bodies made of more refined essenes. This is the true spirtual path - you can talk about it in terms of bodies (essences or substances, spheres of manifestation or planes of being) or consciousness. This is one of the purposes of religious spiritual practice but few people seem to understand this. These facts explain why the Vajrayana school of Buddhism calls the deva body (subtle body) the impure illusory body, namely a body made of impure Qi. Once the Qi of this body becomes purified a deva can then, at will, generate a higher purified illusory body out of this lower shell of our physical nature... And on it goes. [...] Everytime you achieve a new body you break away from or "extinquish" or leave behind the old body, which Buddhism calls "sheath", "aggregate" or "skandha". The previous body still exists as long as you live, but you then live centered in the higher body and identify with it while retaining the existence of each lower body (as an appendage) until its karma is exhausted. 

 

The higher your spiritual body, the higher the plane of existence (and spiritual realms) you can reach. Advanced spiritual bodies can freely travel the spiritual realms, and have various powers of mastery over the energies of the lower realms they transcend. This is why various masters, gurus, prophets, saints and sages - depending on how many body they have achieved - are known to have miraculous powers that work on various levels."

 

About a year ago I really began to reevaluate my approach of the past several years. I meditated every chance I had, every moment of free time I got, but began to feel like the monks at the Shaolin Temple that were listless passive blobs. I had no energy, no drive, didn't want to do anything, go anywhere, had no motivation at all. This being the case I began to seriously reevaluate my practice and approach.

[anshino23]

11 minutes ago, EmeraldHead said:

Guys and Girls, you don't have to go step by step. You can even cultivate multiple steps simultaneously, or at least gather their respective chi simultaneously without having a strong kung fu achievement in their respective bodies. When you get those respective bodies in your cultivation you will have a strong foundation and possibly be halfway finished or something like that.

 

Speaking from experience or just believe you can circumvent time-tested paths and come to the same attainment(s)?  

[anshino23]

4 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

About a year ago I really began to reevaluate my approach of the past several years. I meditated every chance I had, every moment of free time I got, but began to feel like the monks at the Shaolin Temple that were listless passive blobs. I had no energy, no drive, didn't want to do anything, go anywhere, had no motivation at all. This being the case I began to seriously reevaluate my practice and approach.

 

Thank goodness you did. If you're not partial to Buddhism specifically (its Tantric lines are difficult to find, I hear) I'd highly suggest giving an authentic energy-based system a try for a few years and seeing for yourself what a difference it makes. It's not fun, and it's certainly not easy, but it's definitely something that brings about actual transformation. I'm not sure where you're located but seeing and meeting authentic practictioners in person is really eye-opening and inspiring. They're the opposite of listless passive blobs IME.  

Edited January 6, 2021 by anshino23

[EmeraldHead]

13 minutes ago, anshino23 said:

 

Speaking from experience or just believe you can circumvent time-tested paths and come to the same attainment(s)?  

everyday during practice and when I focus on my body, while walking to shopping or whatever, I generate over 3 types of energy, jing and chi forms of these energies. The nirmanakaya is composed of the 4 elements and activated by 5 different energy fields in 5 separate meridian sets I think. Regardless, even if they use the same meridian paths, I doubt one can truly transform the Nirmanakaya without cultivating all it's energies. I'm working on breaking into Sambogakaya realms to generate energy there like that, on a daily basis. Merging the soul or individual souls into one UNIT, STRONG unit.

 

What else is there to achieve, I wonder, besides building MASSIVE energy fields. Is there something mystical I am missing out on?

 

(Don't worry about the 1st 2 skhandas/postnatal energy, I will pick up the pace on that soon too, if you judge my words by how I present myself...)

[Maddie]

16 minutes ago, anshino23 said:

 

Thank goodness you did. If you're not partial to Buddhism specifically (its Tantric lines are difficult to find, I hear) I'd highly suggest giving an authentic energy-based system a try for a few years and seeing for yourself what a difference it makes. It's not fun, and it's certainly not easy, but it's definitely something that brings about actual transformation. I'm not sure where you're located but seeing and meeting authentic practictioners in person is really eye-opening and inspiring. They're the opposite of listless passive blobs IME.  

 

Fortunately I am an acupuncturist and TCM practitioner so I was able to offset some of that with herbs and acupuncture, but it was kind of like swimming upstream.

 

It does not have to be Buddhism for me, I'm more of a pragmatist and just want to do what works. It's just that for the past several years I thought Buddhism was what worked.

[anshino23]

2 minutes ago, EmeraldHead said:

everyday during practice and when I focus on my body, while walking to shopping or whatever, I generate over 3 types of energy, jing and chi forms of these energies. The nirmanakaya is composed of the 4 elements and activated by 5 different energy fields in 5 separate meridian sets I think. Regardless, even if they use the same meridian paths, I doubt one can truly transform the Nirmanakaya without cultivating all it's energies. I'm working on breaking into Sambogakaya realms to generate energy there like that, on a daily basis. Merging the soul or individual souls into one UNIT, STRONG unit.

 

In other words you're in Xian Yao Pai and believe you're drawing directly on pre-heavenly qi and cultivating your Yang immortal shen spirit already (merging all the individuals souls into one unit, strong unit - is exactly what XYP talks about) without going from the bottom-up. I don't have faith in the method, neither do my teachers, but we've spoken about that before.

[dwai]

3 hours ago, EmeraldHead said:

 

 

I think this is where a lot of us disagree. there ARE steps about in awareness.

 

Are you 'exercising' that immortal awareness in your daily life? You can says it is always there...but this doesn't mean it is not something you cultivate...something that you Grow!

what else can you exercise?  is there some other kind of awareness? 
 

PS: what you cultivate and grow is your attention — work with the mind. One can neither increase or decrease awareness — only veil it or unveil it. When fully veiled, it is deep sleep. When partially unveiled it is dreaming and waking. When fully unveiled, Being. 

Quote

 

Buddhism says all beings have a 'buddha-seed', that is seed is 'sleeping'. unlike the physical body it will not decay, but it does not mean it is a not a singular cell bacteria in normal people!

 

Are we God, the ultimate creator immortal 'being' or are we 'a' immortal being?

 

There is only Being. God the ultimate creator is also an appearance in this pure being — awareness. 

Edited January 6, 2021 by dwai

[Maddie]

3 minutes ago, dwai said:

what else can you exercise?  is there some other kind of awareness? 

There is only Being. God the ultimate creator is also an appearance in this pure being — awareness. 

 

Coming from a Christian literal fundamentalist back ground I tend to react uncomfortably to the word God, but I think in Hinduism it means something different?

Edited January 6, 2021 by dmattwads

[dwai]

2 hours ago, freeform said:

That certainly sounds like a much better approach than what I’ve seen... 

 

Though how to know whether a teacher is indeed realised - or just half-baked?

It’s best to stick to the traditional one until you develop the ability to discern. Yes, for that you have to accept the tradition as well. 

Quote

 

Thank goodness I hopped! Otherwise I could’ve wasted the rest of my life at one of these places.

Good — very happy that you didn’t get caught in such a mess. 

Quote

 

———

 

There was a school I came across (from an Indonesian Hindu tradition - but not non-duality) that used zifagong - it was all day every day for 8hrs and chanting the gurus name under your breath while looking at him or his picture...

 

People would get ill, throw up, get blisters, all sorts of quite serious medical issues - and this was all said to be ‘process’ - which meant karma was being worked out through these afflictions...

 

The seniors were all gaunt, drawn, gray and tired...

 

It wasn’t ‘process’ - they were just making themselves ill by perpetuating zifagong.

 

Half right is so much worse than just plain wrong.

Sounds dodgy as hell  

TBH the combination of “Indonesian” and “traditional Hindu nonduality” sets off warning signals right away. I’d stay faaaaar away. 
 

Interestingly, I had a series of long conversations with someone who I hold in very high regard, is a direct disciple of the previous shankaracharya of the Sringeri Math, a direct disciple of master Sheng-yen (among other credentials) about the phenomenon of these “Gurus” and their cults (such as Osho, Et al). He said that these Gurus are essentially janma Siddhas (they are born with Siddhis due to past life practices) and generate a lot of spiritual power very quickly because of that. However, their movements don’t survive long after they’re gone (die) or usually as they age, because supporting millions of followers takes its toll on them - literally depletes their immense spiritual power. That’s why it’s best to stick with a traditional lineages, so that the power of the lineage will act as the wind in the seeker’s  sails once the guru is gone. Lineages have a lot of power — if possible  we must find and stick to a lineage. But that is not up to us, as many factors, such as karma play a big role.
 

If one can’t become part of a lineage with enough pedigree, stay away from the “power focused” teachers and stick to zen, Advaita Vedanta or some wisdom tradition as they are relatively lower risk.  

Edited January 6, 2021 by dwai

[dwai]

33 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

 

Coming from a Christian literal fundamentalist back ground I tend to react uncomfortably to the word God, but I think in Hinduism it means something different?

It’s a bit of a longish discussion. We have deities, and then there is “Ishwara”, closest we can come to a “creator God”. Ishwara is awareness through the filter of pure Satva. We are all awareness through the filter of a mixture of Tamas, Rajas and satva. In fact, the causal body is literally awareness filtered through tamas (which is why we don’t remember the bliss/experience of deep sleep). 
 

Now we have to understand what the gunas are — satva, rajas and tamas - which is another long story . To summarize, the world, God and us (apparently separate beings in the world) are nothing but Awareness/Self/Brahman. When veiled by ignorance, we consider the world (normal materialist view). When veiling is dropped, we realize that it is all nothing but awareness/Self/Brahman. 

 

 

Edited January 6, 2021 by dwai

[freeform]

1 hour ago, anshino23 said:

In other words you're in Xian Yao Pai

Is that the school that believes spontaneous movements are immortals guiding them?

 

Wouldn't that be nice!

 

Though not for the poor immortal...

 

Imagine finally gaining full liberation - attaining a higher state than even Jesus or Buddha maybe - and then being permanently chained to some curious fellow who decided to go on a woo woo weekend workshop 😅

[EmeraldHead]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

There is only Being. God the ultimate creator is also an appearance in this pure being — awareness. 

Great reply! Got me thinking....I do not know what words to use to reply....I agree with you and disagree...in a way you are right! This whole existence is a bit of a game isn't it? But why did God create ?! No tradition has give a concrete answer as far as I know?...

[dwai]

Just now, EmeraldHead said:

Great reply! Got me thinking....I do not know what words to use to reply....I agree with you and disagree...in a way you are right! This whole existence is a bit of a game isn't it? But why did God create ?! No tradition has give a concrete answer as far as I know?...

God didn’t create per se. It only appears that way — In ignorance, God created, God punishes, God loves, God this or that. In wisdom, everything is Pure Being. 
 

Do you remember when you fell in love for the first time? How the world seemed? 

[EmeraldHead]

31 minutes ago, freeform said:

Is that the school that believes spontaneous movements

No. Not spontaneous movements. They do not guide/move the body solely or fundamentally. It is not tai chi and it is not possession. There are bed ridden paralyses members who can only communicate with the nurses by eye movements and still make great progress. Similarly we have inflexible members.

 

35 minutes ago, freeform said:

Wouldn't that be nice!

 

Though not for the poor immortal...

It helps them to release karmas or something like that, I do not know the explanation to tell you. But I believe my schools representative (something which I am not) has answered it at least once on this forum before.

 

1 hour ago, anshino23 said:

 

In other words you're in Xian Yao Pai and believe you're drawing directly on pre-heavenly qi and cultivating your Yang immortal shen spirit already (merging all the individuals souls into one unit, strong unit - is exactly what XYP talks about) without going from the bottom-up. I don't have faith in the method, neither do my teachers, but we've spoken about that before.

 

No.

 

It is not the schools curriculum solely. I am not a proper representative or practical right now. Not until I pass the first grade or something like that. If I don't practice enough and pass on I may not be coach-able in the afterlife because I won't be capable, and then the reincarnation goes on and in a way I leave the lineage...

 

I still do have a lot of key progress and help from independant masters which I met before joining or even hearing of XYP and still practice those things on the side. Your omniscience clearly has failed you here hasn't it prajna-eye master?

 

Pre-heaven qi....I don't use that terminology. I see 5 skhandas in the Nirmanakaya and more in the kayas. There is post-natal, jingchishen and pre-natal jingchishen. I see a lot more than 6 energies like that in this body. And if I give YOU and probably all your teachers a small amount of the higher skhandas you won't process it, heck it might even stay in that part of the body I give into for months, years. Meaning you don't even diffuse the substance and circulate around the body and aura. Not to mention you have super small amount to begin with, being a normal person. If I drain it for more than probably a few minutes you will die doctor! Even if I put it back into you and much more back. Don't worry Im not threatening you presently or in the future but simply describing the substances.

 

So no again, I do not 'drawing' from my guiding immortal shen or anyone else in my lineage or any other being. I received from independant sages I knew, melt them and my body generates them out of thin air. I don't pull from the air, angels or the planet. Rather I make more in the system out of nothing.

Am I clear ?

 

But that aside :/ I was wondering when it will come to this. What are you attacking random lineages and methodologies in this thread? You think you know all the knowledge there is out there?! You see, that is cultish thinking right there dudes! I thought we are having an academic conversation but clearly this forum and it's active shareholders have favoritism and are clearly biased. You show your true colors!

 

I was watching Damos Yi Jin Jing hour long video on youtube that you sent me Anshino and I couldn't help but notice how dirty his 3rd skhanda aura is bro, as for the others.... Good luck jinging yourself, the views you have shared today are pretty much what I said as well, but simply using different terms. In your last reply to me freeform for example I liked it because you said the same thing I said to you....

So for this view, what exactly is transformation? Are you saying you can transform post-natal chi and/or shen into pre-natal jing or chi? I would love to see you do it! Or show where in the cosmos that even happens! Similarly this body and your thoughts and opinions are fuelled by the 5 skhandas. How can you transform the body if you don't cultivate all the energies? - yes all, 5, even I have a long way to go it surely seems. They all have unique functions.

 

But suit yourselves, you've had other people with progress in the higher skhandas and Arhants on this forum over the years who either got bored or insulted and all left.

[Maddie]

2 hours ago, anshino23 said:

 

Thank goodness you did. If you're not partial to Buddhism specifically (its Tantric lines are difficult to find, I hear) I'd highly suggest giving an authentic energy-based system a try for a few years and seeing for yourself what a difference it makes. It's not fun, and it's certainly not easy, but it's definitely something that brings about actual transformation. I'm not sure where you're located but seeing and meeting authentic practictioners in person is really eye-opening and inspiring. They're the opposite of listless passive blobs IME.  

 

I wonder how far one can get in cultivating the body with herbs and acupucture?

[Sketch]

4 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

 

I wonder how far one can get in cultivating the body with herbs and acupucture?

My guess is that anything derived from acupuncture works better if you develop your channel system.