What are your tradition's safeguards against self-delusion or being deluded by others?

[silent thunder]

For me the hinge pin in how to tell delusion from true perception of actual reality is our perceptual process and the awareness that fuels it.

 

When there is no true perception among human minds regarding reality... perception for each individual is interpretation, gamble, assumption, projection that is created by the storyteller of mind, that is formulated and based on filters of perceptual cognition created by family, society and self dialogue.

 

How does one define actual reality in a manner that doesn't rely solely on their awareness through their perceptual apparatus?

 

Perception and Awareness are the arbiters of actual reality?  

To me they are filters and reflections of it, respectively... we only ever speak about what we perceive and are consciously aware of... what we perceive is what is filtered into and then through awareness... because of this, claiming that we are free of delusion at any time is akin (to me) to aiming a flashlight into the ocean and saying... I've seen the ocean, so I now know it as it is, in full, clearly and truthfully, it's actual reality...

 

It is the same for me when folks claim to know actual reality with their flashlight (local conscious) awareness. 

 

Such innate trust in and assumption of the capability and accuracy of the projections of one's perceptual process and local awareness is alien to me.

[forestofclarity]

5 hours ago, freeform said:

 

Much of the meditative path comes to us through the Vedic tradition.

 

I would argue Tantric rather than Vedic personally. 

[forestofclarity]

5 hours ago, dwai said:

 That was the way for balance to be maintained in the external world, as well as the internal world. Similarly with Mantras -- the mantra practice tradition was borrowed by Buddhists as well  

 

From the Shaivites, if you follow Alexis Sanderson.  

[dwai]

8 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

I would argue Tantric rather than Vedic personally. 

Tantric and Vedic divide is an artificial one. Tantras/Agamas have roots in the Vedic heritage, but there is a lot of socio-political noise around that, so it gets lost. 

https://www.hinduismtoday.com/modules/smartsection/item.php?itemid=529

Quote

The Rig is the earliest, foundation work. It contains 10, 552 verses. The Yajur's 1,975 verses are primarily for ritual purposes. Embedded in the Yajur like a fiery diamond is the famous Sri Rudram, the preeminent hymn to Lord Siva invoking His intimacy and majesty as Rudra, the Destroyer. In a wonderful bridging process, we see Sri Rudram arching out to theologically connect with the Atharva Veda, the Svetasvatara Upanishad and Saiva Agamas. The Sama Veda houses 1,875 verses of which 90% are a copy of Rig verses. The Sama contains rules to melodically sing (sama means "melody"), rather then chant, these duplicates. Finally, the Atharva's 5,987 verses express everything from magical charms to universal dissolution. It is the youngest and in some respects most mystical collection. Like the Sri Rudram, the Atharva is a metaphysical bridge between Vedic and Agamic thought.

 

Agama, in Sanskrit, means, "that which has come down." It refers to knowledge coming from God's and the Gods' minds into man's intuitive consciousness. Possibly it means wisdom propogated from the past and thus coming down from history or our forefathers - perhaps from the Indus Valley, as it exhibits great similarity to the Agamic religious patterns. The Agamas, in effect, would amplify, like an electronic signal booster, the Vedic worldview and spiritual disciplines. They would also in many ways overshadow (not eclipse) Vedic knowledge, as in temple/icon worship supplanting yajna "fire-medium" worship. Fire pits, even from Indus Valley, are incorporated into the temple precincts. The Vedas express a great deal of yogic practice, but it is simply stated and casually referenced. It is as if yoga is so sacred, it demands being taught secretly in person and its details were kept out of the general Vedic rendering. The Agamas dedicate thousands of detailed verses to yoga, though these, too, are subject to personal guidance by a qualified guru.

 

Another profound term used interchangably with, and revealing the nature of, the Agamas, is tantra meaning "loom" or "methodology." As this suggests, tantra is the esoteric fabric of Hinduism. It contains copious detail on the spiritual and physical bodies of man and how they relate with the interior universes and beings. Essentially, tantra states that man is a microcosmic vessel of the macrocosmic universes. The inner bodies of man with their chakras (consciousness force centers), nadis (psychic nerve channels) and the primal kundilini force have direct counterparts in the human body: its higher brain functions and nerve system, its glands and hormonal secretions. Chakras, nadis and kundalini, in turn, are the gates, pathways and consciousness/energy into the totality of God's universes. Even the Agamic temple floor plan resembles or follows the outline of a man lying on his back. In Agama/Tantra the deepest worship is achieved by yogic identification with the Gods and God prior to and during the puja ceremony. In Veda, the worship is powerful, gravitational invocations of the Cods and God through mantras and fire ceremony. The Agamic priest draws himself into the universe of the deities. The Vedic priest draws the deities close to our universe. One fine perception is that the Vedas are "man becoming God," the Agamas are "God becoming man." Both achieve the same result: intimate communication between man and God Beings interior to our universe.

 

4 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

From the Shaivites, if you follow Alexis Sanderson.

Ah...one of those guys  

[Nungali]

9 hours ago, dmattwads said:

Why not get this puppy back on track....

 

A few days ago someone had made the claim to be enlightened and this thread was created to discuss how one can know if someone is truly enlightened or not and if so how this can be known.

 

a few months back  , a few people and one in particular  offered PROOF that their 'big boy' cult leader had achieved the very same .... 'going light '  - he  witnessed it !

 

Oh what a kerfuffle they made about it here  ... even some Mods !

 

His name  was   ' Jonesboy ' .

[Maddie]

1 minute ago, Nungali said:

 

a few months back  , a few people and one in particular  offered PROOF that their 'big boy' cult leader had achieved the very same .... 'going light '  - he  witnessed it !

 

Oh what a kerfuffle they made about it here  ... even some Mods !

 

His name  was   ' Jonesboy ' .

 

I've seen a lot of people claim enlightenment, or to be Jesus or something. The skepticism I have these days is well earned. 

[Nungali]

7 hours ago, freeform said:

 

Oh no - please lets not go down that road now!

 

... and you thought yesterday was crazy !

 

 

[Nungali]

6 hours ago, dwai said:

Actually, it is a lot more serious than that. Indian civilizational history has been systematically distorted by Westerners (conquerors and all) over the ages. It is a matter of the natives speaking up -- their voices matter too.  

 

Do you mean those Aryan / Vedic conquerors that swarmed in over the Hindu Kush  ?      

[Nungali]

6 hours ago, Apech said:

 

Without wanting to provoke any controversy ... there wasn't any 'Hinduism' at the time of the Buddha ... there was vedic Brahmanism which was quite different.  Also can I make the point that most if not all of Buddhas criticism of Brahmin priests was that they were not being very good Brahmin priests - they had at that time 5th century BC become static and arrogant in their attitudes and relied on blood purity and not ethical purity.

 

 

 

Good point !

 

'Hinduism' is  recent invention .

[Bindi]

My latest safeguard - if they’re not talking about the Yangshen or illusory body, they don’t know nuthin. 

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, natural said:

 

 Is that an H. for Holy or Harold?

 

Jesus Hindu Christ , of course   

[old3bob]

pardon me for i have not read the thread but I will say that spiritual forces forces are protected by "inductive reactance", a term used in electricity which I'm submitting as an analogy.

[Apech]

10 hours ago, old3bob said:

pardon me for i have not read the thread but I will say that spiritual forces forces are protected by "inductive reactance", a term used in electricity which I'm submitting as an analogy.

 

Ohm.

[XianGong]

I have seen delusional people in each and every tradition. The only way possible to safeguard is to have a very strict screening process, followed by a much more strict training process, and still, there would be some delusion, or some people with delusion, as getting completely rid of delusion is an overly massive task. You just have to accept that 99.999998% of humanoids are living in a massive delusion they call life.

 

As for how WE avoid delusion, it is by using our Psi powers to see through things. If you claim you are enlightened, it does not take much effort for me to get inside your brain and look for myself, whenever you are enlightened or it is just a conclusion of internal dialogue masturbation.

[Limahong]

12 hours ago, Nungali said:

... you thought yesterday was crazy !

 

Hi Nun,

 

 

?

 

- Anand

 

 

[old3bob]

4 hours ago, Apech said:

 

Ohm.

 

Ohm Tat Sat 

 

(part of the analogy fits, do you have any electrical background?  Btw, another term used in electricity and also in spiritual teachings is synchronize)

 

Edited January 8, 2021 by old3bob

[Creation]

On 1/5/2021 at 5:34 AM, freeform said:

I've had a few 'awakening' experiences in my life... one was as a child after a car plowed into me and my friend... but another (more interesting) time was with a teacher who I considered enlightened.

...

My first exposure to non-dual teachings that caught my interest was an article that broke down the stages of non-dual awakening.  Reading more of this person's writings, he emphasized that almost everyone in the non-duality milieu is the first or second stage of (in this article) seven.  Apparently, every new stage a person gets to, there is a tendency to say "This is it! There is no way there's any realization deeper than this! This is what all the world's spiritual paths are pointing to!"  Or, even if they acknowledge they are still suffering, there is very little guidance available on what to do next, how to deepen realization.  What's more he referenced different axes of development, and explained how non-dual awakening was one way to develop your consciousness, but didn't necessarily develop you in other ways.  To use Ken Wilber's phrase, waking up is not the same as growing up.  In hindsight, these two together laid a foundation of discernment which allowed me to sidestep the kind of thing you describe.  The number of non-dual teachers I've found that actually have the qualities I'm looking for (high stage of non-dual awakening while living effectively and morally in the mundane world) is very small indeed, and found through word of mouth talking to people who also have and appreciate the same qualities.  So I count myself fortunate to have found the ones that I have.  That's the main reason I maintain an interest in non-duality even while practicing Damo's stuff.

Edited January 8, 2021 by Creation

[thelerner]

bump

long thread worth a read through.

[Sahaja]

I am not sure one can completely avoid or control delusion. However, cultivation paths using body based (tantric) methods would say that any experienced phenomena should either have a cause or co-arises with a correlate that is evident in the physical body/physical shared reality. If there is not it’s a good chance delusion has arisen. It’s not a guarantee but it’s a good starting filter to apply. Markers are also used, but these can be problematic for those markers that rely on self reporting and are known by the student ahead of time. 
 

I think this filter of physicality applies at all levels on the path. Though talking about full enlightenment is way beyond my pay grade,  I  believe there is something called the “thirty two major and 80 minor marks  “  that fits this definition even at that august level.  So next time someone tells you they’re  fully enlightened, you can say “show me the marks ! “
 

On  a personal level, if I start to be impressed by experiences and phenomena I tell my self - good job,  you are now at level 3 of 10,000 - only 9997 levels to go (and the scale is logarithmic)

[old3bob]

one's own ego can not eliminate ego from coming into play,  and as far as I know (which is not that far) even most masters in the world need or maintain some functional, and positive ego to interact  with the "world".  Ego is the first to identify us as a particular being and the last to go as particular being.  A truly enlightened being  can see through all levels of ego/mind thus help guard against same getting delusional if you are part of their school.