Which teaching got your attention

[Maddie]

Needless to say the Buddha taught a lot of different things to a lot of different people.

 

Just to name a few there are the five aggregates, the 12 Links of dependent origination, the seven factors of enlightenment, the three poisons of greed hatred and delusion, the four Noble truths along with the eightfold path, the five hindrances and many others.

 

It seems like one thing gets one person's attention and another thing gets someone else's attention.

 

The teaching that initially got my attention was the four Noble truths, specifically the second Noble Truth that desire is the cause of suffering. This still seems to be my main focus in Buddhism and the thing that makes the most sense to me.

 

I wonder which teachings got other people's attention and what teachings are other people's primary approach and practice?

Edited January 5, 2021 by dmattwads

[EmeraldHead]

I think "desire causes suffering" is an awful translation that has been popularized nowadays. (no personal offence meant dmattwads)

[Sketch]

Had no idea what this was. I'd felt sort of gaslit all my young life. Put this in the eight track player of Mom's car and everything I did after that was different than everything before that. Anything else was to justify something I understood in the first seconds of this. 

[Wilhelm]

1 hour ago, dmattwads said:

 the five aggregates, 

This one for me!

 

48 minutes ago, EmeraldHead said:

I think "desire causes suffering" is an awful translation that has been popularized nowadays. (no personal offence meant dmattwads)

Hmmm... Could it be better said that clinging is the cause of suffering?

[Maddie]

16 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

 

Hmmm... Could it be better said that clinging is the cause of suffering?

 

Well that's what the Buddha said. Desire is seeking something that you don't yet have and clinging is holding on to something that you already do have.

 

What about the five aggregates got your attention?

Edited January 5, 2021 by dmattwads

[Maddie]

1 hour ago, EmeraldHead said:

I think "desire causes suffering" is an awful translation that has been popularized nowadays. (no personal offence meant dmattwads)

 

Lol no offense taken since I'm neither the Buddha nor the translator 😌

 

The word is Tanha which transliterated is thirst but I suppose some of the translators didn't think this transliteration conveyed the message well to the Western mind.

Edited January 5, 2021 by dmattwads

[C T]

The 7 points of mind training, or Lojong, written and expounded by Geshe Chekawa Yeshe Dorje in the 12th century, and is just as relevant today. This teaching is the tour de force that establishes the strongest foundation for any aspiring Buddhist practitioner on the path to liberation. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lojong

https://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-masters/geshe-chekhawa-yeshe-dorje/seven-points-mind-training

 

Commentary: https://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-masters/gyalse-thogme-zangpo/commentary-on-seven-points-mind-training

 

[EmeraldHead]

1 hour ago, dmattwads said:

 

Lol no offense taken since I'm neither the Buddha nor the translator 😌

 

The word is Tanha which transliterated is thirst but I suppose some of the translators didn't think this transliteration conveyed the message well to the Western mind.

Here's the deal. The skhandas are there. Whether you like them or not. Not like a cascade in nature which a dam can stop, but like electromagnetism itself, present in and of everything; for allegorical example....(of course electromagnetism is made of the 5 skhandas pretty much, or at least not superior in nature to the might of the skhandas.)

 

Gautama still experienced them, but the way he merged his subtleties together is like 'experiencing, form, he does not get attached/identified in the experienced phenomena'. However it's still there.

The skhandas fuel what Mahayana buddhism calls Nirmanakaya. What is beyond is what they call Sambogakaya. So the Nirmanakaya experiences, has, fuels, lives, breathes these 5 skhandas - food, hunger, thoughts, ideas, concepts, consciousness through the various orifices/senses, etc etc.

 

But you don't have to sublimate them by minimizing them. He taught his disciples to merge their soul in the manner he did, by minimizing the Nirmanakaya experience, for example, from early on, become celibate without discussion - in the most strict form.

[Maddie]

1 minute ago, EmeraldHead said:

Here's the deal. The skhandas are there. Whether you like them or not. Not like a cascade in nature which a dam can stop, but like electromagnetism itself, present in and of everything; for allegorical example....(of course electromagnetism is made of the 5 skhandas pretty much, or at least not superior in nature to the might of the skhandas.)

 

Gautama still experienced them, but the way he merged his subtleties together is like 'experiencing, form, he does not get attached/identified in the experienced phenomena'. However it's still there.

The skhandas fuel what Mahayana buddhism calls Nirmanakaya. What is beyond is what they call Sambogakaya. So the Nirmanakaya experiences, has, fuels, lives, breathes these 5 skhandas - food, hunger, thoughts, ideas, concepts, consciousness through the various orifices/senses, etc etc.

 

But you don't have to sublimate them by minimizing them. He taught his disciples to merge their soul in the manner he did, by minimizing the Nirmanakaya experience, for example, from early on, become celibate without discussion - in the most strict form.

 

Thanks for sharing. It is interesting for sure. What was it about that, that got your attention personally?

[EmeraldHead]

6 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

 

Thanks for sharing. It is interesting for sure. What was it about that, that got your attention personally?

it helps me to achieve the nirmanakaya neigoing process for macho superpowers

[Maddie]

8 minutes ago, EmeraldHead said:

it helps me to achieve the nirmanakaya neigoing process for macho superpowers

 

I doubt this will be received well, but the five aggregates are the things that are not self but are commonly taken to be self. The problem being a false notion of self. Seeking powers is generally a desire of this notion of self and also strengthens the notion of self. 

 So if the point of teaching the aggregates is to reduce the notion of self, seeking powers is the opposite of that. 

[EmeraldHead]

1 minute ago, dmattwads said:

 

I doubt this will be received well, but the five aggregates are the things that are not self but are commonly taken to be self. The problem being a false notion of self. Seeking powers is generally a desire of this notion of self and also strengthens the notion of self. 

 So if the point of teaching the aggregates is to reduce the notion of self, seeking powers is the opposite of that. 

the skhandas are just psychological fields. Like postnatal chi, prenatal chi, etc etc. They are energy fields. How else can they produce psychological phenomena if they were not 'energy' ?

[Maddie]

Just now, EmeraldHead said:

the skhandas are just psychological fields. Like postnatal chi, prenatal chi, etc etc. They are energy fields. How else can they produce psychological phenomena if they were not 'energy' ?

 

I'm not really arguing what they are although the first skhanda is form or matter, not energy, but the point of the skhandas isn't what they are made of, but why they were taught. They were taught to show what is not self but is usually taken to be self. 

[EmeraldHead]

Just now, dmattwads said:

first skhanda is form or matter, not energy

matter is made of the 4 elements not 1st skhanda.

 

You imply there is no self? But which sutra specifically quotes that? if I remember well, Buddhism says not to take into consideration the self, or any of these self, just leave the concept aside. A fit understanding for someone with Gautamas merging method.

[Maddie]

2 minutes ago, EmeraldHead said:

matter is made of the 4 elements not 1st skhanda.

 

You imply there is no self? But which sutra specifically quotes that? if I remember well, Buddhism says not to take into consideration the self, or any of these self, just leave the concept aside. A fit understanding for someone with Gautamas merging method.

 

I did not say the first skhanda is matter. I said the first skhanda consists of matter. The first skhanda is the body.

 

I did not say there is no self. I said the Buddha taught the five skhandas to teach was is not the self but often taken to be. 

Edited January 5, 2021 by dmattwads

[EmeraldHead]

10 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

 

I did not say the first skhanda is matter. I said the first skhanda consists of matter. The first skhanda is the body.

 

I did not say there is not self. I said the Buddha taught the five skhandas to teach was is not the self but often taken to be. 

you are right actually, read but misunderstood sorry.

 

However, if you're going to 'surpass' or misidentify with these fields....you must cultivate them. I mean, like postnatal energy field which is only some of the skhandas, it collects dirt and whatnot. The energy must be purified so that the ... equivalent mentation can be strengthened. If the equivalent mentation of any of these energy fields is left alone meaning close to no energy, then the mentation equivalent / intention is always idle and sleeping/not present. So then how can you cultivate it?

 

One 'way', (more like a momentary convenience gesture than a systematic "way") is to practice hard concentration to unify the various principles and move up to Sambogakaya. Then perhaps you may be able to see Sambogakaya bodies, evoke at that level higher beings, cultivate and purify your own Sambogakaya body and so on, while in 'trance'/meditation.

Another is to cultivate the skhandas. All the subtle body copies not just the postnatal astral that your neighbours could project with if they practiced a bit, but the higher ones as well. Then as they are well cultivated, every waking moment you easily exert strong mental pressure from all energy fields. What was previously unnoticed thoughts/impressions without the presence of an energy field is now on your most tangible layer of mentation and easily controlled.

 

Once it's easily controlled just silence your mentation and in emptiness what is found is what is 'behind' it - Sambogakaya if you have all 5 skhandas strong energy field. You don't need to practice mental 'concentration' to awake yourself as such...

Edited January 5, 2021 by EmeraldHead

[Maddie]

1 minute ago, EmeraldHead said:

you are right actually, read but misunderstood sorry.

 

However, if you 'surpass' or misidentify with these fields....you must cultivate them. I mean, like postnatal energy field which is only some of the skhandas, it collects dirt and whatnot. The energy must be purified so that the ... equivalent mentation can be strengthened. If the equivalent mentation of any of these energy fields is left alone meaning close to no energy, then the mentation equivalent / intention is always idle and sleeping/not present. So then how can you cultivate it?

 

One 'way', (more like a momentary convenience gesture than a systematic "way") is to practice hard concentration to unify the various principles and move up to Sambogakaya. Then perhaps you may be able to see Sambogakaya bodies, evoke at that level higher beings, cultivate and purify your own Sambogakaya body and so on.

Another is to cultivate the skhandas. All the subtle bodies not just the postnatal astral that your neighbours could project with if they practiced a bit, but the higher ones as well. Then as they are well cultivated, every waking moment you easily exert strong mental pressure from all energy fields. What was previously unnoticed thoughts/impressions without the presence of an energy field is now on your most tangible layer of mentation and easily controlled.

 

Once it's easily controlled just silence your mentation and in emptiness what is found is what is 'behind' it - Sambogakaya if you have all 5 skhandas strong energy field. You don't need to practice mental 'concentration' to awake yourself as such...

 

May I ask what exactly you think the five skhandas are?

 

The five skhandas as the Buddha taught are mostly functions that people mistake being the self.

 

They are:

 

1. Form: or the body.

 

2. Perception or feeling: identifying a feeling (from the six senses) as pleasant or unpleasant or neutral. 

 

3. Conceptions: what we understand things to be.

 

4. Volitions: the will or volitional actions, our judgments. 

 

5. Consciousness. knowing what happened, happened. 

 

They are basically functions that we take to be a self but are not. They are not really taught as energy fields, and their purpose for being taught is to help one not mistakenly identify with any of them as a self. 

 

What do you think they are?

[EmeraldHead]

11 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

 

May I ask what exactly you think the five skhandas are?

 

The five skhandas as the Buddha taught are mostly functions that people mistake being the self.

 

They are:

 

1. Form: or the body.

 

2. Perception or feeling: identifying a feeling (from the six senses) as pleasant or unpleasant or neutral. 

 

3. Conceptions: what we understand things to be.

 

4. Volitions: the will or volitional actions, our judgments. 

 

5. Consciousness. knowing what happened, happened. 

 

They are basically functions that we take to be a self but are not. They are not really taught as energy fields, and their purpose for being taught is to help one not mistakenly identify with any of them as a self. 

 

What do you think they are?

he described how they are experienced psychologically and a bit objectively so that we may identify them...for example the 5 skhanda can give the feeling awareness of just looking through the eyes, (visual consciousness) or just feeling the body (tactile consciousness).  The 3rd skhanda for example will perceive, so in visual consciousness for example, identfiy clearly in your awareness field ('mind') that yellow is yellow, an egg is an egg. It has it's own subtle body merged with the physical matter body which has 5 such subtle copies; the body, known as Nirmanakaya. If for example you are depleted/drained by a black magician / evil cultivator / wanker wasteman belonging to a cult, ahem......... then the victim would struggle to 'read'. Well they would read but struggle to comprehend what they just read. Simply starring at the words, can read them, make the sounds in their mind, but struggling to put the meaning of all words in a sentence together.

 

" Consciousness. knowing what happened, happened. "

I would say the knowing what happened is more 4th skhanda? is like a super focused awareness on the very stream you are paying attention. Such as paying attention to someone talking; if the 4th skhanda is abundant in someone with minimal/normal levels of the 3rd and 5th skhanda, they would naturally pay more attention to the words of the eyes and mouth which express the words rather than say, someones weird haircut. Similarly, a nirmanakaya with such configuration (4 evident and abundant) internally, would pay attention easily to the overall ideas, leading intention mentally. So for example a monk once gave the example 3rd skhanda is what you read (when you read a book), 4th skahnda is the speed at which you read and 5 skhanda is simply awareness you exerting your mental limbs such that you are reading and eyes are focused, irrelevant of what you are reading or in what direction your eyes are pointed at/what angle your neck is, etc.

 

Similarly for 2nd skhanda you used the word "identify" I would say identify is 3rd or 4th skhanda depending on how you translate. 2nd skhanda is simply feeling .... such as sexual orgasm or a mental mood! But irrelevant of specific thoughts, just unpleasant mood/feeling, neutral or pleasant.

Edited January 5, 2021 by EmeraldHead

[Maddie]

2 minutes ago, EmeraldHead said:

he described how they are experienced psychologically and a bit objectively so that we may identify them...for example the 5 skhanda can give the feeling awareness of just looking through the eyes, (visual consciousness) or just feeling the body (tactile consciousness).  The 3rd skhanda for example will perceive, so in visual consciousness for example, identfiy clearly in your awareness field ('mind') that yellow is yellow, an egg is an egg. It has it's own subtle body merged with the physical matter body which has 5 such subtle copies; the body, known as Nirmanakaya. If for example you are depleted/drained by a black magician / evil cultivator / wanker wasteman belonging to a cult, ahem......... then the victim would struggle to 'read'. Well they would read but struggle to comprehend what they just read. Simply starring at the words, can read them, make the sounds in their mind, but struggling to put the meaning of all words in a sentence together.

 

I would say the knowing what happened is more 4th skhanda? is like a super focused awareness on the very stream you are paying attention. Such as paying attention to someone talking; if the 4th skhanda is abundant in someone with minimal/normal levels of the 3rd and 5th skhanda, they would naturally pay more attention to the words of the eyes and mouth which express the words rather than say, someones weird haircut. Similarly, a nirmanakaya with such configuration (4 evident and abundant) internally, would pay attention easily to the overall ideas, leading intention mentally. So for example a monk once gave the example 3rd skhanda is what you read (when you read a book), 4th skahnda is the speed at which you read and 5 skhanda is simply awareness you exerting your mental limbs such that you are reading and eyes are focused, irrelevant of what you are reading or in what direction your eyes are pointed at/what angle your neck is, etc.

 

Yes I think I agree that recognition is more of a third skhanda thing, and in general we seem to have more or less the same understanding of the functions of the skhandas, but I've never heard the skhandas taught as being sublet energy bodies before, but then again most of my study has been in and from the Pali Cannon so maybe that is the difference? 

 

I've mainly just understood the skhandas to be taught as functions and not "things". 

[EmeraldHead]

Just now, dmattwads said:

 

Yes I think I agree that recognition is more of a third skhanda thing, and in general we seem to have more or less the same understanding of the functions of the skhandas, but I've never heard the skhandas taught as being sublet energy bodies before, but then again most of my study has been in and from the Pali Cannon so maybe that is the difference? 

 

I've mainly just understood the skhandas to be taught as functions and not "things". 

Yes, they all have a jing form, very close to the physical body, making sexual orgasm feel great , a chi form with yin and yang type, and this exists in the atmosphere and can be pulled and a shen form - the subtle form, and naturally all 5 have a subtle copy of the Nirmanakaya world. Even animals and innanimate objects. Control all 5 and a bit more training/mechanics and you can manifest, in the true sense of the world, instantly.

[Maddie]

1 minute ago, EmeraldHead said:

Yes, they all have a jing form, very close to the physical body, making sexual orgasm feel great , a chi form with yin and yang type, and this exists in the atmosphere and can be pulled and a shen form - the subtle form, and naturally all 5 have a subtle copy of the Nirmanakaya world. Even animals and innanimate objects. Control all 5 and a bit more training/mechanics and you can manifest, in the true sense of the world, instantly.

 

What is your source text for this again? 

[EmeraldHead]

Just now, dmattwads said:

 

What is your source text for this again? 

:/

[Maddie]

1 minute ago, EmeraldHead said:

:/

 

What I'm asking is where do you get this information from? How do you know it is so?

[EmeraldHead]

Just now, dmattwads said:

 

What I'm asking is where do you get this information from? How do you know it is so?

I mean, it's redundant, how do I know gravity exists? I breathe and live it

[Maddie]

2 minutes ago, EmeraldHead said:

I mean, it's redundant, how do I know gravity exists? I breathe and live it

 

I ask because I've never read anything where the Buddha taught the skhandas in this manner, nor was the purpose for him teaching them to obtain powers. 

Edited January 5, 2021 by dmattwads