Is the Universe, and thereby God, moral?

[helpfuldemon]

There is a force in this Universe that influences incorrect moral choices.  I have witnessed this on a supernatural level.  I wonder why it is that a moral, Good God, would allow or encourage these things.  I have concluded that this reality is but a stage, and we are Gods actors, on which we experience a moral challenge where we feel joy and sorrow, love and hate, anger and pleasure.  We are caught by our greatest power: desire, and torn between it, and duty.  

[goldenlamb]

 

24. The name of Hall the second is the Hall of LEARNING. In it thy Soul will find the blossoms of life, but under every flower a serpent coiled.

This Hall is a very much larger region than that usually under stood by the Astral World. It would certainly include all states up to dhyāna. The Student will remember that his “rewards” immediately transmute themselves into temptations.

From Liber 71  https://hermetic.com/crowley/libers/lib71/index?s[]=16&s[]=day&s[]=hermetic&s[]=course

 

Lost - is -

never gained again

7         7

 

The only sin is restriction? 

 

Edited January 7, 2021 by goldenlamb

[Nungali]

I would agree that the making of 'incorrect moral decisions' is a 'force in the Universe , as in the first post .

 

I  observe that the original outlining of that force was the original impetus behind the philosophy of the second post .  (and also very obvious in other 'Thelemo-philosophical' concepts like 'true Will'  compared to   'Khvarenah'    - probably engendered by things such as 'The Chaldean Oracles'  as well as the Scripture itself . )

 

IE.  angra and  spenta mainyu  ... 'mental attitude'   which can be engendered by certain behaviours  - one way or the other .

 

http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/overview/index.htm#spenta_angra

 

http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/overview/index.htm#khvarenah

Edited January 8, 2021 by Nungali

[Maddie]

On 1/6/2021 at 9:17 PM, helpfuldemon said:

There is a force in this Universe that influences incorrect moral choices. 

 

What do you base this statement on?

[Nungali]

' A force  is any interaction that, when unopposed, will change the motion of an object.  '   ? 

 

 

-  sorry for being an

 

Spoiler

 

 

I know you want helpfulemon's answer .

[thelerner]

Universe moral..?

 

I don't know but I operate that the Universe isn't moral or keeping score.  Which means We have to.  Honour the opportunity to be alive by leaving the world better than we entered it.  To act in kindness and honesty because that creates a better world. 

 

Not that I'm a great example of altruism but I try.   

[Maddie]

2 minutes ago, thelerner said:

Universe moral..?

 

I don't know but I operate that the Universe isn't moral or keeping score.  Which means We have to.  Honour the opportunity to be alive by leaving the world better than we entered it.  To act in kindness and honesty because that creates a better world. 

 

Not that I'm a great example of altruism but I try.   

 

To risk paraphrasing poorly I think the DDJ says the Dao or the Universe or nature is rather indifferent.

[manitou]

On 1/6/2021 at 7:17 PM, helpfuldemon said:

There is a force in this Universe that influences incorrect moral choices.  I have witnessed this on a supernatural level.  I wonder why it is that a moral, Good God, would allow or encourage these things.  I have concluded that this reality is but a stage, and we are Gods actors, on which we experience a moral challenge where we feel joy and sorrow, love and hate, anger and pleasure.  We are caught by our greatest power: desire, and torn between it, and duty.  

 

 

The Dao treats us as straw dogs.  There is no moral judgment.  There is no need to judge or be judged, as it is all the Dao.  It's only a matter of stripping our conditioned selves to our essence.  We are It.  

 

Dogma which teaches separation of any kind will ultimately be transcended because it is structured by man's mind.  Anything exclusionary, including religious identity, must be released.

[thelerner]

1 hour ago, dmattwads said:

 

To risk paraphrasing poorly I think the DDJ says the Dao or the Universe or nature is rather indifferent.

Beyond religion and philosophy, I don't see a moral karmic universe in history.  Sometimes good triumphs, sometimes not.  Over time groups play both roles.  History is messy.

 

We do better when family, community, kindness and sharing, personal honor are emphasized over selfishness.  We do better when we act like its a karmic moral universe. 

 

 

[helpfuldemon]

I think morality and its fruit is self evident, as is immorality.  I think that the Gods that interact with mankind are not fully on the side of morality- that they like to provoke drama and instigate conflict.  I dont have an answer as to why that is, but from my experience, it seems that this is how things are.  I suspect that boredom has something to do with it- that we are pawns in a game of want and discovery, and that should we all be peaceful and orderly, not only would our evolution stagnate, but also the Gods would get bored with us.

[Nungali]

17 minutes ago, helpfuldemon said:

I think morality and its fruit is self evident, as is immorality.  I think that the Gods that interact with mankind are not fully on the side of morality- that they like to provoke drama and instigate conflict.  I dont have an answer as to why that is, but from my experience, it seems that this is how things are.  I suspect that boredom has something to do with it- that we are pawns in a game of want and discovery, and that should we all be peaceful and orderly, not only would our evolution stagnate, but also the Gods would get bored with us.

 

 

That the Greek view  .... straight from Greek mythology .

 

May I suggest a 'God' from the Egyptian pantheon ;

 

 

Why Not Try MAAT? – The Challenger Com

 

Maat or Maʽat (Egyptian: mꜣꜥt /ˈmuʀʕat/, Coptic: ⲙⲉⲓ)^[1] refers to the ancient Egyptian concepts of truth, balance, order, harmony, law, morality, and justice. Maat was also the goddess who personified these concepts, and regulated the stars, seasons, and the actions of mortals and the deities who had brought order from chaos at the moment of creation. Her ideological opposite was Isfet (Egyptian jzft), meaning injustice, chaos, violence or to do evil.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maat

[helpfuldemon]

ok

Edited January 9, 2021 by helpfuldemon

[helpfuldemon]

And this idea isnt just Greek, Jews understand too 

[Nungali]

19 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

And this idea isnt just Greek, Jews understand too 

 

Like Philo of Alexandria ?   “Nothing is more unstable than Fortune, who moves people like game-pieces up and down” (Life of Moses 1.31).. 

Some Greek observations ;

Zeus promotes his son Heracles, while his wife Hera seeks constantly to torment him;  Athena tries her best to bring Odysseus home, while Poseidon works to make his journey as long and painful as possible.   In the Iliad the two sides are each favoured by a different group of deities – the Greeks by Athena and Hera and Poseidon, the Trojans by, among others, Ares, Aphrodite and Apollo – and these two teams of gods encourage whole armies of heroes to fight each other in order to satisfy their pride and resentment. 

 

The Trojan War, which leads to the deaths of thousands of mortals and the destruction of an entire civilization, is reflected on Olympus simply as a family squabble among the gods, apparently largely forgotten by the time of the Odyssey, only  ten years later.

 

Some  Christian writers also seem to have embraced the metaphor:  Gregory of Nanzianzus writes in a letter, “let it be others that envy and time and chance move like game pieces and throw about and play with,” .

[goldenlamb]

i would suggest you all to recite ”What is Lost is never gained again” and get it lost because that is cosmic moral and dark truth. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pp4X5_h0qys

It is the southern ascending in the western descending. 

It helped me cross the abyss.

But I had help from an esoteric order somehow. I would like to thank you.

But it’s still a quest and I would not advertise. Unless Lost.

 

[manitou]

10 hours ago, goldenlamb said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pp4X5_h0qys

 

 

Beautiful music.  It did sound like the spirit of water.

 

In giving this topic (of a moral universe) some more thought, I don't think morality is the right word.  That infers a judgment.

But Love?  I think that mutual attraction is the basis of it all, and call it love, magnetism, or electromagnetics, - all is based on this gravity-type attraction.

And I think this is why wu-wei works.  When we take our hands off something and trust that it will straighten out on its own, it does - because the universe knows the perfect situation (which is already in existence because time isn't really linear).  And when we trust the universe to handle something for us - well, I've never been disappointed.  It may not be the way I thought it would come out, but always better.

 

 

 

Edited January 14, 2021 by manitou

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, manitou said:

 

 

Beautiful music.  It did sound like the spirit of water.

 

In giving this topic (of a moral universe) some more thought, I don't think morality is the right word.  That infers a judgment.

But Love?  I think that mutual attraction is the basis of it all, and call it love, magnetism, or electromagnetics, - all is based on this gravity-type attraction.

And I think this is why wu-wei works.  When we take our hands off something and trust that it will straighten out on its own, it does - because the universe knows the perfect situation (which is already in existence because time isn't really linear).  And when we trust the universe to handle something for us - well, I've never been disappointed.  It may not be the way I thought it would come out, but always better.

 

 

 

 

 

Yep .    Also 'chemical' .

 

Oxygen' s   'great love '    for  hydrogen    (  I think 'threesomes  count  )   

 

= 

 

 

[manitou]

8 hours ago, Nungali said:

Oxygen' s   'great love '    for  hydrogen    (  I think 'threesomes  count  )  

 

Yes.  Threesomes do count.

 

When I first went to AA 40 years ago, they had me come up with a 'power greater than myself.'  I had no religion, so the power greater than myself I used was Gravity.  The concept was not one I'd ever thought about, but I figured if it could hold my feet onto the ground it must be pretty great.  I was pretty flippant about it, actually.

 

And now here I am, 40 years later, giving serious thought to gravity once again.  Only this time it feels intimate, and I can feel and appreciate its presence.  The law of attraction, the attraction of the earth to its children, maybe?  And the mysterious pull of a black hole, seen only by its event horizon.  

 

Gravity, mutual attraction, love....regardless of the form it takes. 

[Nungali]

14 hours ago, manitou said:

 

Yes.  Threesomes do count.

 

When I first went to AA 40 years ago, they had me come up with a 'power greater than myself.'  I had no religion, so the power greater than myself I used was Gravity.  The concept was not one I'd ever thought about, but I figured if it could hold my feet onto the ground it must be pretty great.  I was pretty flippant about it, actually.

 

And now here I am, 40 years later, giving serious thought to gravity once again.  Only this time it feels intimate, and I can feel and appreciate its presence.  The law of attraction, the attraction of the earth to its children, maybe?  And the mysterious pull of a black hole, seen only by its event horizon.  

 

Gravity, mutual attraction, love....regardless of the form it takes. 

 

 

yeah ...... its started  pulling my face down now 

 

 Get back up there ! !    UP  !   UP!