Money

[Maddie]

This is probably the most reluctance I have ever begun a topic with, but its time to talk about money from a spiritual perspective. My personal reason for this is that through out my entire life no matter where I have been, or what I have done I have always struggled with money. This has caused me to contemplate all sorts of various explanations such as karma to curses. 

 

The main reason I have been so reluctant to bring up this topic is because there is SO MUCH CRAP floating around regarding this topic, but with that being said I still want to figure this one out. I will share a few of my main theories.

 

Karma is my main area of contemplation in regards to this topic. In the past I had other areas of my life that went bad no matter where or when I was nor matter how "smart" I tried to be, so after putting forth effort to change and improve my karma these areas of my life seemed to gradually improve, but this does not seem to be the case in regards to the topic of money.

 

Curses have been another of my speculations concerning the topic of money as I indeed do know of a few people in my life that are nasty and vindictive and I have been told by others they they actually actively "pray" that I will be unsuccessful. Additionally my father would constantly tell me growing up that I would be unsuccessful and some have told me that this can actually be a real curse as well. If this is indeed the case though it would seem that I have been unsuccessful in breaking any such curses if they do exist. 

 

Other than that I really don't know why this seems to always be such a difficult area of my life, but I suppose that I why I'm making a post about it, hoping that someone out there might have a theory that makes sense. I know for a fact that this will require some sorting as I'm confident that I will be told a fair amount of nonsense as well, but hopefully I might get an answer that actually works for once in regards to this subject.  

[natural]

As a child of Parents who grew up in the Great Depression late  (1929 thru the 30's) several values were taught to me as a child.

Honesty or as both my Dad and Maternal granddad put it Don't play or fux with anyone else's money.

You can't be expected to help everyone, but you are damn sure expected to help someone.

My grandmother had a disabled sibling, did not know that my Grandparents were her sole supporters, until long after their passing.

Pay your self every week, put something away for a rainy day.

Work hard and expect a fair wage.

[Maddie]

18 minutes ago, natural said:

Work hard and expect a fair wage.

 

The problem increasingly seems to be that hard work doesn't necessarily get one a fair wage.

[natural]

1 minute ago, dmattwads said:

 

The problem increasingly seems to be that hard work doesn't necessarily get one a fair wage.

 I was working for $1.00 per hour on my first Job.

After a month I asked for a raise.

Got bumped to $1.25. 

Gave my two weeks notice then and there.

Didn't slack at all during the last two weeks. 

Three days after the two weeks were up, I got a call.

How much to come back? Two dollars with regular increases I replied.

I started off with a paper route at twelve years of age.

Worked different jobs thru 4 years of college before launching my own business at 22.

Its a fact, I found it much harder to find workers than I did the work.

I paid better than anyone else and I remain that and the fact that I never asked anyone to do something I wouldn't do were the key factors to my success.

[Limahong]

3 hours ago, dmattwads said:

This is probably the most reluctance I have ever begun a topic with, but its time to talk about money from a spiritual perspective.

 

Hi dmattwads,

 

Then why do you fuel money as a topic?

 

No money ~ no talk.

 

 

No money ~ no honey.

 

 

 

- Anand

 

 

[Limahong]

1 hour ago, natural said:

Pay your self every week, put something away for a rainy day.

Work hard and expect a fair wage.

 

Hi natural,

 

Yes.

 

29 minutes ago, natural said:

I paid better than anyone else and I remain that and the fact that I never asked anyone to do something I wouldn't do were the key factors to my success.

 

I love you ~ Bro. You have done your family proud.

 

Now I am going to sleep and dream about success ~ the natural way.

 

Good night.

 

- Anand

 

[Maddie]

29 minutes ago, Limahong said:

 

Hi dmattwads,

 

Then why do you fuel money as a topic?

 

 

When I see a problem I try to solve a problem.

[Limahong]

1 minute ago, dmattwads said:

When I see a problem I try to solve a problem.

 

Your problem?

 

 

[freeform]

4 hours ago, dmattwads said:

My personal reason for this is that through out my entire life no matter where I have been, or what I have done I have always struggled with money.

I think you need to broaden your perspective.

 

You said you did an undergraduate degree... You mentioned that you studied TCM... You have a computer and you have enough time to visit this forum.

 

Just that alone puts you in the top 5% of the world’s population. You have more resources than 95% of the world’s population.

 

There are literally billions of people in the world that would look at your life and give their right arm to have to opportunity to live it.

I suggest you take some time to consider this - because it’s so easy to quickly skip over this fact and look to who’s richer than you instead.

Edited January 7, 2021 by freeform

[Sketch]

My own arc has been through the arts towards spiritual experimentation. Please do not think that  I'm to be mistaken for a serious person where money is concerned.

Edited January 7, 2021 by Sketch

[Maddie]

I think one reason I was reluctant to begin this topic is because for what ever reason one can ask for advice about many other topics and it is taken seriously but mysteriously when one asks for advice about money it brings a whole different attitude set to the surface, typically of annoyance, and assumptions about the persons financial state. If anyone has any interesting and useful metaphysical insights I'd love to hear them, but if I just wanted cynical boomer quips I have plenty of sources to get that from around me locally.

[Sketch]

Really, I'm only going to get worse with this. 

[Wilhelm]

1 minute ago, dmattwads said:

I think one reason I was reluctant to begin this topic is because for what ever reason one can ask for advice about many other topics and it is taken seriously but mysteriously when one asks for advice about money it brings a whole different attitude set to the surface, typically of annoyance, and assumptions about the persons financial state. If anyone has any interesting and useful metaphysical insights I'd love to hear them, but if I just wanted cynical boomer quips I have plenty of sources to get that from around me locally.

I'm just coming out of the lifetime money problem thing.  I'm afraid I don't have any metaphysical insights, though I spent a heck of a lot of time looking for them (ending up with a lot of new age silliness).

 

I spent a lot of time on this and am happy to give practical advice here or by PM, but I'm afraid it's just gonna be the stuff you'd expect from someone who went to business school...

 

 

[Maddie]

1 minute ago, Wilhelm said:

I'm just coming out of the lifetime money problem thing.  I'm afraid I don't have any metaphysical insights, though I spent a heck of a lot of time looking for them (ending up with a lot of new age silliness).

 

I spent a lot of time on this and am happy to give practical advice here or by PM, but I'm afraid it's just gonna be the stuff you'd expect from someone who went to business school...

 

 

 

New Age silliness was the other end of the spectrum I was worried about lol

[Sketch]

Based on my life experience,  my other choice is to try to sell you a lucky money charm. Seriously. 

Edited January 7, 2021 by Sketch

[Wilhelm]

1 minute ago, Sketch said:

Based on my life experience,  my only third choice is to try to sell you a lucky money charm. Seriously. 

I almost bought one of those from a Voodoo practitioner one time. Looking back on it (who he is, what he's working with), I'm really glad I didn't!

[Wilhelm]

19 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

 

New Age silliness was the other end of the spectrum I was worried about lol

Edit: Apologies - you gave a real concern and I was making jokes.

 

I know what it's like living with the 'worrying about money's cloud hanging over you.  No fun! 

 

It looks like the best advice I know has already been said in this thread...

Edited January 7, 2021 by Wilhelm

[freeform]

9 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

If anyone has any interesting and useful metaphysical insights I'd love to hear them

If you take your time with what I said, you might get the metaphysical insights you’re looking for...

 

if I told you to be grateful for the incredibly precious opportunity you have - it would just sound like platitudes.

 

If I told you to try and help those less fortunate, you’d probably discount it.

 

And if I told you that seeing things from a new perspective would allow you to move forwards in this... that just sounds like new age silliness.

 

But you chose to take it as ‘boomer quips’... 

 

Which, to me at least, reveals the ‘metaphysical explanation’ for why you’re having issues with money.

(And your issues of gauging my age )

[freeform]

I made a pretty good income at a certain stage. You could say I was rich. Now I’m pretty poor - poorer than the vast majority of my school friends.

 

But I have less problems with money now than I did when I was ‘wealthy’.

 

Making money is simple, but not easy:

 

1) Do something people find very valuable - and do it really well.

 

2) Spend less than you earn

 

3) Make saving an automatic thing. Save 10 to 20% of your income - whatever your income may be.

 

4) Invest your savings wisely.

 

And that’s it.

[RiverSnake]

6 minutes ago, freeform said:

I made a pretty good income at a certain stage. You could say I was rich. Now I’m pretty poor - poorer than the vast majority of my school friends.

 

But I have less problems with money now than I did when I was ‘wealthy’.

 

Making money is simple, but not easy:

 

1) Do something people find very valuable - and do it really well.

 

2) Spend less than you earn

 

3) Make saving an automatic thing. Save 10 to 20% of your income - whatever your income may be.

 

4) Invest your savings wisely.

 

And that’s it.

 

Emphasis on (1). Developing a skill is 90% of the battle. Once your in the top 1% in your field.....people cross mountains to receive your services. 

[dwai]

@dmattwads it is a very difficult topic for sure. Please take what I write with my assurance, that I'm not judging , etc. Just sharing what I've learned over the years. 

 

A very valuable lesson someone gave me was to learn to differentiate between "wants" and "needs". What I want, isn't always what I need, and what I need, I might not want. On the topic of money, many aspects play a role. Karma is one. Our outlook towards life is another. By outlook towards life, I mean -- do I know what I need? What do I need to be comfortable? What would constitute a "want" -- as in, I want that new thing and I need money to get it. How much is sufficient?

 

If I had proper sustenance, proper shelter and proper clothing, is that enough for me to be comfortable? Growing up, my dad would tell us one proverb over and over -- "don't spread your feet farther than what your shawl can cover" (it's a bad translation of a classic indian proverb). It means, essentially, learn to live within your means. Don't look at what others have. 

 

An important attitude, in my experience is to open ourselves up to the "universe" with the intention "let me have what I need" and let it go. My teacher tells me that is the way to make an intention. Meditate on what you want, make a strong intention, send it into the universe and it will come to pass if its meant for you.

 

 I've seen vicious times where it was unclear if we would end up on the streets (my mom, my sister and I) after my dad passed away. I've seen times when I've had more than enough -- and I try to help others to the best of my ability in such times. I came to the US with 150$ to my name, and one suitcase --- and a promise of a job. I've lost it all, and rebuilt from scratch over two plus decades. 

 

On a more practical subject -- one of my dad's friends told me when I was starting out in my adult life, "plan what you want from your life, 5 years at a time. What do you want to do? Where do you see yourself in the next 5 years, 10 years, etc. Figure out how you can get there, and then do it."

 

In my experience, I've seen that whatever I seriously intended to achieve,  it eventually happens. It might not be exactly when I intended for it to happen, but it does. But that was before I got on the spiritual path. After getting on the spiritual path, suddenly things like financial gains, etc seemed a bit trite. It gets harder when you have a family, children, etc. But we do the best we can. 

[Maddie]

44 minutes ago, freeform said:

If you take your time with what I said, you might get the metaphysical insights you’re looking for...

 

if I told you to be grateful for the incredibly precious opportunity you have - it would just sound like platitudes.

 

If I told you to try and help those less fortunate, you’d probably discount it.

 

And if I told you that seeing things from a new perspective would allow you to move forwards in this... that just sounds like new age silliness.

 

But you chose to take it as ‘boomer quips’... 

 

Which, to me at least, reveals the ‘metaphysical explanation’ for why you’re having issues with money.

(And your issues of gauging my age )

 

Guess we should clear up some assumptions....

 

I already tend to have a pretty good attitude of gratitude, and am told this by others I interact with.

 

I do often and frequently donate to the less fortunate.

 

I wasn't referring to you about either new age silliness nor your age. I was trying to be vague about who I was referring to as to not offend any one specifically while at the same time expressing some of my frustration regarding the topic. 

[anshino23]

From a favorite author of mine. You may find it a helpful perspective. I know I did.  

 

--

 

The subject of money and what has monetary value deserves special attention. The possession and the lack of money create today the thousand and one conditions through which the ways of destiny lead. Independence, servitude, fatigue, checks on development, choice of associates, power, opportunity, duty, most of the innumerable predetermined aspects of life in the world, are related to money.

 

Everybody needs money. It is proper that everybody should have some. Indeed one of the tests of a good government is that all people under it should have the opportunity to earn enough for food, clothes and shelter. Beyond these needs some wants are justifiable according to the position a man holds in the world. If one has no wife or children, less is needed. But the thoughts of man go beyond and demand not only what would be sufficient for their needs and reasonable wants. They want money for luxury and display, for power over others, and some want money for money’s sake. However much they may have, they still want more. Often money, after it has been acquired, has little value. It will not buy health, honor, self-respect; it cannot buy love nor life; nor independence, ease or knowledge.

 

True independence is what money should help to bring, and little money is enough for that. Though independence varies with one’s position and work in the world, little money is needed to establish it. Cares, troubles and intrigues surround those who desire more than enough. Money does not enlarge the range of independence. Happiness within and assurance without is what all men want, but life never gives them. The nearest approach is independence, however modest it be. Money is one of the smallest requirements. The less one needs and the less he wants from the money god, the more independent that one is.

 

The money god is a powerful earth spirit, created, kept alive and given his power, like other gods, by the worship of doer portions in human bodies. Under this great earth god are little money gods, special deities for each of the worshippers. Each little money god, in the heart and on the hearth, is nourished by the worshipper, and stands for the great god. The individual gods pass the worship on to the composite great god. This one, in turn, through the hierarchy, aids his worshippers in obtaining money and avoiding losses, in helping them into successful enterprises and lucrative positions, or in keeping them out of financial disasters. But this god cannot give health, comfort or esteem; nor love, cheer or hope; nor can it give protection in the end, when destiny cannot be held back. Often a worshipper having obtained the money worships other gods and uses the money to gratify other desires which his wealth permits. The money god is tolerant while he holds the first place in the heart, but if the new worship, such as that of voluptuousness, drunkenness, ambition interferes, he is a jealous god and revenges himself not only by the loss of money, but by the loss of the things that the money had bought.

 

He who is born in poverty, who feels at home in poverty and makes no effort to overcome his poverty, is a feeble, indolent and ignorant person, who has done little in the past and so has little in the present. He will be driven by hunger and want or be brought by love of those dependent upon him to work, as the only escape from the dull treadmill of poverty. He who is born in poverty with ideals, talents or high ambitions, may be one who has ignored physical conditions and spent his energies in dreaming and in castle building.

 

He who suddenly suffers reversals of fortune may be one who in the past has deprived others of their property, or who has neglected to protect his own. The present experience is a lesson necessary to make him feel the physical want and suffering which loss of prosperity brings, and to make him sympathize with others who experience it. Or the loss of fortune may be required by destiny as a check on developing tendencies, or as preparation for other work.

 

The possession of wealth is the result of work or worship in the present or in the past life. Physical labor, intense desire, worship of the money god, and continual thought, are the means by which money is obtained. Upon the predominance of any one factor will depend the amount.

 

The unskilled laborer in field, mine or shop, who uses little thought and does not carefully direct his desire, must work hard and long to earn enough for a scanty existence. With more intense desire and more thought, the laborer becomes skilled and is able to earn more. When money itself—not merely food, clothing and shelter—is the object of desire, thinking provides the means by which it may be obtained. Then wider fields are sought, where money is to be made and greater opportunities are seen and taken advantage of.

 

To obtain vast sums of money a man must have made money the chief object of his life and have sacrificed other interests to the worship of the money god. When he has paid the price in worship, the money god will put him in touch with other men having the same aims, whom he will be able to use in getting the money he craves, or the money god will put him into a position where he can levy directly or indirectly upon a multitude as in the case of tax-eaters, bondholders, army contractors, government builders or franchise owners. Sometimes the money does not come soon, but then it comes in another life in the shape of inheritance, good fortune, gifts, sinecures or pensions, without present work or worship. Yet such things do not happen except for the work and worship of the past.

 

According to the right or wrong use of money will one suffer or enjoy what money brings. When money is the chief object of one’s existence, he is unable to enjoy fully the physical things which its use can provide, and money makes him indifferent to the wrongs he does, deaf to the sorrows of others and careless of his own true needs. Money, again, is the Nemesis which is the close and constant companion of those who pursue it. So one who finds pleasure in the hunt for money continues the hunt until it becomes a mad chase. Frequently the long hours of thought and labor required to amass his riches have ruined his health and he dies a discontented man.

 

Money may open up other sources of misery to the money worshipper. He may use his money in ostentation or vice. He often neglects his children and leaves them to be cared for by others. It may be noticed that insanity and degeneracy are frequent among the idle and luxurious offspring of the rich. In their turn, these degenerate children are the money worshippers of other days. The love of money drew them into a rich family, but money is now a curse.

 

Different from the future of the mere miser or dollar-hunter is that of those who are unscrupulous and dishonest in the acquisition of money. The lot of successful usurers, engrossers of necessaries, sellers of adulterated food, schemers, promoters and floaters of financial bubbles, is in the future that of common thieves or robbers. Persons who individually or as members of privileged classes obtain through force or corruption special privileges to the injury of others, are legalized robbers. These characters, of thieves and oppressors, which they developed, will find their true expression later, when they are externalized.

 

Then without the cover of legality, money, station or influence, they are born as rogues, and complain of the injustice of their lot. The born thief who is hounded from birth and soon comes to grief is the successful thief of a past life who plundered or defrauded others without then suffering the consequences. He is now paying the debts which he then incurred, whether he was a pilfering servant, a pickpocket, a common spoiler, a robber baron, a tax-eater, a food engrosser, a bribe-taker or any other kind of a cheat or fraud; whether his acts were labelled as crime or not, they were dishonest, that was enough.

 

If he has had the character of a thief, that character eventually becomes externalized physically, when he is the “born thief,” who “never had a chance.” He is marked, outlawed, convicted and caged as a rogue.

 

The physical suffering which one may have caused, the poverty which he may have brought to others by outwitting them or by depriving them of their property, must all in turn be suffered by him.

 

One who overvalues the pleasures and indulgences which money can buy, and uses his money to procure these, must be without money at some time, and feel the need of it.

 

The misuse of money brings poverty; the right use of money brings independence and honest wealth. Money properly procured gives physical conditions for comfort, enjoyment and work for self and others. One who is born of honorable and wealthy parents, or who inherits money, has earned it by his thought and actions; there is no accident of wealth or of inheritance by birth.

[Maddie]

29 minutes ago, dwai said:

@dmattwads it is a very difficult topic for sure. Please take what I write with my assurance, that I'm not judging , etc. Just sharing what I've learned over the years. 

 

A very valuable lesson someone gave me was to learn to differentiate between "wants" and "needs".

 

 

I'm not only responding to you but clearing a few more general assumptions in general with out getting to specific and personal. I actually have very few wants. I live in a simple but comfortable small apartment, drive a clean and reliable economy car, have enough to eat, and live in a safe area all of which I am grateful for. 

 

On the other hand while I have a skill and work long and hard I've noticed that no matter where I live, or what I do, I always never have enough. I don't spend lavishly at all, but just to survive I am going further into debt and this is just to buy food and necessities. If I make more, then suddenly more unexpected bills materialize to bring me back to the not making quite enough balance. I have for various reasons beyond my control several large expenses that are beyond my means to keep up with.

 

I assume this is my karma as I have with similar situations in the past that were the same no matter where I was nor what I did. In the past I focused on different aspects of karma and I saw these areas of my life gradually improve but now I am at a place in my life where money is the issue.

 

I just feel in general that if I ever do ask advice about money I am told the usual advice that I already know and do. I live simply, I have very little and am content with such. What I am dealing with now is not greed, but survival. I was hoping someone had been down this route and knew of the behind the scenes doings of these things. 

[Sketch]

That lucky money charm is starting to sound pretty good.