Wai Dan

[Maddie]

Much is said here about Neidan and for good reason as it is an interesting and important topic, but very little is said about Weidan or external alchemy. I suppose the cliche notions of emperors being killed from mercury poisoning while taking the Cinnabar pill to obtain immortality can be a little off putting, but what about all the other Weidan techniques developed over the centuries with safer herbs and other techniques? I think there is merit in looking into this further. As a TCM herbalist I have had some success with these methods and thought the issue was worthy of discussion.  

[anshino23]

In my understanding, most of authentic Weidan is underground. Some of the Qi-boosting pills and formulas are sold in SEA, but without a foundation created by a functional LDT you're essentially just burning your jing and depleting yourself.

 

You're likely not going to find anyone openly discussing this stuff outside of those traditions as it's dangerous and requires adequate physical preparation for the elixirs to be functional and have the right and proper beneficial effects. 

[Maddie]

44 minutes ago, anshino23 said:

In my understanding, most of authentic Weidan is underground. Some of the Qi-boosting pills and formulas are sold in SEA, but without a foundation created by a functional LDT you're essentially just burning your jing and depleting yourself.

 

You're likely not going to find anyone openly discussing this stuff outside of those traditions as it's dangerous and requires adequate physical preparation for the elixirs to be functional and have the right and proper beneficial effects. 

 

I agree that its hard to find discussion about, and that it can be dangerous. I wonder what it was about Cinnabar that they ancient Daoist alchemists found so fascinating? Unless they just told that to Emperors they didn't like to get them off the throne.

Edited January 8, 2021 by dmattwads

[MIchael80]

1 hour ago, dmattwads said:

Much is said here about Neidan and for good reason as it is an interesting and important topic, but very little is said about Weidan or external alchemy. I suppose the cliche notions of emperors being killed from mercury poisoning while taking the Cinnabar pill to obtain immortality can be a little off putting, but what about all the other Weidan techniques developed over the centuries with safer herbs and other techniques? I think there is merit in looking into this further. As a TCM herbalist I have had some success with these methods and thought the issue was worthy of discussion.  

Anshino23 is right. These things are not openly discussed .... as with all ming related stuff.

While there are countless  alchemical pills for almost every stage of the inner process even more rare is the actual wei dan (external elixir).

It is called philosophers stone in europe. 

 

Some daoist sects still make it, the Tamil siddhas also still make it and in india are some mercury lineages that have survived.

 

It can be a liquid or an actual stone (red to purple in color).

It totally transforms the physical form and consciousness when taken regulary.  One must be highly prepared for this process as it is an extremely hard, brutal and painful one.

 

If the energy body is open taken it one time seems fine....it is like an extrem "high" because of the system not being able to handle it...but the understanding of everything is indescribable and very different from usuall awakening. 

 

In india the theory is that mercury is the seed of shiva and the first step is to use sulphur to detox the mercury.

[dwai]

WRT Tamil Siddha external alchemical practices is concerned - It is very dangerous. My Tamil Siddha yoga teacher passed away as a result of miscalculations while working with this. Be very careful with this stuff. IMHO this entire line of practice is unnecessary and extremely dangerous, and based on misunderstanding of what alchemy actually meant in the classic texts. 

[MIchael80]

24 minutes ago, dwai said:

WRT Tamil Siddha external alchemical practices is concerned - It is very dangerous. My Tamil Siddha yoga teacher passed away as a result of miscalculations while working with this. Be very careful with this stuff. IMHO this entire line of practice is unnecessary and extremely dangerous, and based on misunderstanding of what alchemy actually meant in the classic texts. 

Yes it is very dangerous! 

That is why lineage is of utmost importance.

The results of correct use and preperation are astounding.

 

It is actually the same process as internal alchemy just with external means. 

[Maddie]

14 minutes ago, MIchael80 said:

Yes it is very dangerous! 

That is why lineage is of utmost importance.

The results of correct use and preperation are astounding.

 

It is actually the same process as internal alchemy just with external means. 

 

There are less extreme and dangerous methods as well. I have used several methods to work on opening various channels that are not as hard core.

 

[freeform]

2 hours ago, anshino23 said:

Some of the Qi-boosting pills and formulas are sold in SEA

They’re quite common actually... but they contain stuff like turtle shell... Also without transmission into the pill by a master, it’s just going to heat you up and be done (rather than fill your Dantien for instance). But these aren’t ‘alchemical’ per se... it’s just a different form of herbalism focused on cultivation. 

 

The more alchemical ones are indeed dangerous and everything must be spot on - the one preparing it, the one taking it, the one overseeing the process - everyone has to be at the correct level of cultivation and know exactly what they’re doing. This isn’t herbal medicine - it’s cultivation. Anything out of place can result in death.

 

External alchemy is very well developed amongst the weizza and the esoteric Buddhist groups in Myanmar. They have forms of these preparations (normally using precious metals) that are less dangerous.

[freeform]

Just now, freeform said:

External alchemy is very well developed amongst the weizza and the esoteric Buddhist groups in Myanmar. They have forms of these preparations (normally using precious metals) that are less dangerous.

Oh and the ones making them can literally change physical properties of substances with their concentration. Which blew my mind when I first witnessed it.

[Maddie]

1 minute ago, freeform said:

Oh and the ones making them can literally change physical properties of substances with their concentration. Which blew my mind when I first witnessed it.

 

I had no idea the Theravada were doing anything remotely like this at all!

[freeform]

1 minute ago, dmattwads said:

 

I had no idea the Theravada were doing anything remotely like this at all!

Me neither. But Burma had a very developed ‘folk’ spirituality that mixed with Buddhism into a kind of tantric approach similar to the various Yogic or Daoist traditions.

[Maddie]

2 minutes ago, freeform said:

Me neither. But Burma had a very developed ‘folk’ spirituality that mixed with Buddhism into a kind of tantric approach similar to the various Yogic or Daoist traditions.

 

Yeah at my local monastery there is an American monk that spent time in Burma but he is very dismissive of their folk traditions as just primitive superstition. 

[anshino23]

41 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

There are less extreme and dangerous methods as well. I have used several methods to work on opening various channels that are not as hard core.

 

What signs have you had of channels actually opening through those methods? From what I've learned when we talk about channels in Qigong/Neigong and Neidan we don't really work on them as those distinct lines/channels as described in Chinese medicine. 

[freeform]

10 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

primitive superstition

 

With that attitude I’m not surprised doors didn’t open to him.

[freeform]

1 minute ago, anshino23 said:

channels actually opening

‘Channel opening’ in TCM and cultivation are two very different things in my experience.

 

Even within qigong, Neigong and Neidan - they tend to mean something slightly different.

[Maddie]

7 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

With that attitude I’m not surprised doors didn’t open to him.

 

Yes I was quite disappointed when I went there to do a few meditation retreats.

[Geof Nanto]

The correct term is Waidan. I'm  surprised no one has mentioned this. From Wikipedia:

 

The Chinese compound wàidān combines the common word wài 外 "outside; exterior; external" with dān 丹 "cinnabar; vermillion; elixir; alchemy". The antonym of wài is nèi 內 meaning "inside; inner; internal", and the term wàidān 外丹 "external elixir/alchemy" was coined in connection with the complementary term nèidān "internal elixir/alchemy".

[Maddie]

10 minutes ago, Yueya said:

The correct term is Waidan. I'm  surprised no one has mentioned this. From Wikipedia:

 

The Chinese compound wàidān combines the common word wài 外 "outside; exterior; external" with dān 丹 "cinnabar; vermillion; elixir; alchemy". The antonym of wài is nèi 內 meaning "inside; inner; internal", and the term wàidān 外丹 "external elixir/alchemy" was coined in connection with the complementary term nèidān "internal elixir/alchemy".

 

Might be one of the Taoism/Daoism, Chi/Qi type things.

 

Nevertheless I corrected it.

Edited January 8, 2021 by dmattwads

[Geof Nanto]

Thanks dmattwads.  Both the Pinyin and Wade-Giles Romanisation of  外 are the same, namely wai.

 

 

Edited January 8, 2021 by Yueya

[Maddie]

3 hours ago, freeform said:

‘Channel opening’ in TCM and cultivation are two very different things in my experience.

 

Even within qigong, Neigong and Neidan - they tend to mean something slightly different.

 

As a TCM practitioner I would like to know more about this difference.

 

Maybe that's why I've been confused when I hear terms like opening the channels because from a TCM point of view if your channels weren't open you wouldn't be alive.

[Sketch]

7 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

 

As a TCM practitioner I would like to know more about this difference.

 

Maybe that's why I've been confused when I hear terms like opening the channels because from a TCM point of view if your channels weren't open you wouldn't be alive.

You may benefit from research into the eight extraordinary vessels.

https://ymaa.com/articles/the-eight-extraordinary-qi-vessels-part-1

Edited January 8, 2021 by Sketch

[Maddie]

3 minutes ago, Sketch said:

You may benefit from research into the eight extraordinary vessels.

https://ymaa.com/articles/the-eight-extraordinary-qi-vessels-part-1

 

Learned a lot about those in Acupuncture school and I very frequently use them when I'm treating patients.

[Sketch]

8 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

 

Learned a lot about those in Acupuncture school and I very frequently use them when I'm treating patients.

As part of your personal practice? It can be seen as a separate subject.

Edited January 8, 2021 by Sketch

[Maddie]

2 minutes ago, Sketch said:

As part of your personal practice?

 

I needle the points for them. Not sure if that's what you mean?

[Sketch]

Not in the least. I'm not finding reference material that I think explain in the right terms, hopefully the local brain trust can dig me out of this.

Edited January 8, 2021 by Sketch