Oneironaut Posted January 27, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, Nungali said: Thanks for the little lecture ...... You're very welcome! Quote but , what on earth was in my post that you quoted that you think it needed this above response ? Someplace else you've spoken down on karate and mentioned the supposed martial superiority of kali/eskrima over it. I'm not going to waste time digging but if you'd like to you can. In your more recent post you failed to mention that the reason Kalaripayattu loses against karate is because Kalaripayattu does not work. It doesn't matter if it's in a dojo, in the streets, on the beach or in some remote location. Quote Are you claiming Karate is 'battle ready ' ? Yes. That's mostly dependent on the style and their approach to techniques that can be applied in a live fight situation against someone with ill intent. Someone that's REALLY trying to hurt you and not just theory. There are full contact karate styles with this approach in mind and if anything is holding karate back from evolving even further it's really the politics. Quote Maybe you can explain why hliite is used in tsuki during kihon but not kumite and especially not in MMA ? I have seen variations of hikite used in combat sports with success. The chambering may not be exaggerated but the same exact principle still applies. I also don't see anyone getting into a horse stance during kumite or MMA. Some dojos probably don't allow hikite during sparring so it mostly stays within kihon, kata and the realm of theory. There are MMA fighters out there who hybridize tsuki and boxing punch technique in MMA with success so it's not like tsuki does not work. It does and it's designed to be used without gloves. Here's a fun fact: Gloves entirely change the dynamic of a fight. Edited January 27, 2021 by Oneironaut Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dwai Posted January 27, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, Nungali said: Thanks for the little lecture ....... but , what on earth was in my post that you quoted that you think it needed this above response ? And why would I need to not " ... take my word for it go and see for yourself " ..... I have been 'going and seeing myself' , practising and studying history and development of 'karate' for over 50 years . Are you claiming Karate is 'battle ready ' ? . Maybe you can explain why hliite is used in tsuki during kihon but not kumite and especially not in MMA ? . If I had a dollar for every time an ‘expert’ comments on which martial art is “effective” and which is not....🙄 My sifu says, if you want to fight, practice fighting, not martial arts Martial Arts is for something else, though you can use it to fight, if you practice fighting with it. Funny story — when I was in college, there was a big fight between two political factions. One friend, a 6’2” 200 lb karate black belt (3rd Dan I believe) decided to take some street fighters (from the opposing faction) on. He kicked a few guys, they fell a few feet away, promptly got up and came at him again. Soon, 6-7 guys jumped on him — all he could do is protect his vitals and get the crap beat out of him. Another friend, was an unassuming guy, learned to fight from Thai laborers since when he was kid in the Andaman Islands. He got into a fight with some thugs from a local slum, beat the living daylights out of them. They ran for reinforcements. He kicked their asses too. He was half the karate guy’s size. He told me, he could do that because he grew up fighting - he was a fighter. Edited January 27, 2021 by dwai 6 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Oneironaut Posted January 27, 2021 (edited) 43 minutes ago, dwai said: If I had a dollar for every time an ‘expert’ comments on which martial art is “effective” and which is not....🙄 Only I never claimed to be an expert. Just someone who considers themselves a student of the game. I just stated a few simple facts. If only I had a dollar for anyone that gets offended when facts are spoken... Quote My sifu says, if you want to fight, practice fighting, not martial arts Martial Arts is for something else, though you can use it to fight, if you practice fighting with it. Funny story — when I was in college, there was a big fight between two political factions. One friend, a 6’2” 200 lb karate black belt (3rd Dan I believe) decided to take some street fighters (from the opposing faction) on. He kicked a few guys, they fell a few feet away, promptly got up and came at him again. Soon, 6-7 guys jumped on him — all he could do is protect his vitals and get the crap beat out of him. Certain martial arts shouldn't have the term "martial" attached to it. Art? Sure... but there's nothing martial about them. I don't mind the spiritual component. If it gives you mental strength more power to you. If meditation eases your anxiety and makes you more focused and a sharper fighter I'm all for it as well. I have yet to see chi/ki being used in a fight application but I'm still very open minded. Which McDojo or daycare center posing as a "karate" gym did your friend practice in? Quote Another friend, was an unassuming guy, learned to fight from Thai laborers since when he was kid in the Andaman Islands. He got into a fight with some thugs from a local slum, beat the living daylights out of them. They ran for reinforcements. He kicked their asses too. He was half the karate guy’s size. He told me, he could do that because he grew up fighting - he was a fighter. You have people who aren't chest thumping brutes, getting into fights every weekend AND trained in authentic karate styles who can do that too. Does that not make them fighters? Edited January 27, 2021 by Oneironaut Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dwai Posted January 27, 2021 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Oneironaut said: Only I never claimed to be an expert. Just someone who considers themselves a student of the game. I just stated a few simple facts. If only I had a dollar for anyone that gets offended when facts are spoken... Certain martial arts shouldn't have the term "martial" attached to it. Art? Sure... but there's nothing martial about them. I don't mind the spiritual component. If it gives you mental strength more power to you. If meditation eases your anxiety and makes you more focused and a sharper fighter I'm all for it as well. I have yet to see chi/ki being used in a fight application but I'm still very open minded. Which McDojo or daycare center posing as a "karate" gym did your friend practice in? when I was in college, there were no McDojos in India( almost 30 years back). We trained hard, 3-4 hrs (every training session) of hard conditioning, cardio, full contact sparring without any protective gear (not even groin cups). I’ve lost count of how many times I’ve got kicked on the face, punched etc during sparring. I’d walk 4 km to the stadium where we trained. And walk back. Reach there at 3, back home around 7:30 pm. 3-4 times a week. No, he was a legit karateka, but like most people from a cultured background, he didn’t know what it was to really fight brutes and thugs. It takes a different mentality - one my other friends was a bouncer — he could brawl in his sleep. Another guy had some gang affiliation but he wasn’t that close. He lived in violence — but a super nice guy. Quote You have people who aren't chest thumping brutes, getting into fights every weekend AND trained in authentic karate styles who can do that too. Does that not make them fighters? Sure, if they train that way. My Sifu has sent many a comer to the hospital in the 70s using taijiquan. He was a fighter back then. I know kalari guys who are super tough too. However, in a civilized society, violence should not be a choice. One can practice martial arts for the artistic joy, self-discovery and expression. It builds character, fortitude and discipline. The MA prepares us for reach challenges in real life, not just fighting in cages or in the streets. That is more important to me than fighting efficacy. Edited January 27, 2021 by dwai 6 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Oneironaut Posted January 27, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, dwai said: like most people from a cultured background, he didn’t know what it was to really fight brutes and thugs. It takes a different mentality Glad we could agree on something. But mentality could only get you so far. Aside from the proper mentality you also need techniques that are effective and the training to show you how those techniques can be readily applied in live combat situations. Quote My Sifu has sent many a comer to the hospital in the 70s using taijiquan. He was a fighter back then. I know kalari guys who are super tough too. This is what I think of when it comes to TCM, Eskrima, Kali, kalaripayatuu and functionless forms of karate even. Some guys that practice traditional arts may be tough and in great shape but there's a such thing as being "in shape" and being "in fighting shape". Military men for example are extremely tough and in very good shape but they would get absolutely slaughtered in hand to hand combat when it comes to fighting someone who specializes in those disciplines. It's not at all far fetched to say that an obese boxer with decent hand skills can easily knock out a military guy who exercises all day. Quote However, in a civilized society, violence should not be a choice. One can practice martial arts for the artistic joy, self-discovery and expression. It builds character, fortitude and discipline. The MA prepares us for reach challenges in real life, not just fighting in cages or in the streets. That is more important to me than fighting efficacy. We can partly agree here. I would say fighting efficacy is important however it can be taken to unhealthy extremes like we see in combat sports. I hate being judgmental but I can't help seeing the majority of those competition fighting guys as low IQ brutes who would otherwise be dead or in prison if it was not for fighting. I respect a handful of specific styles of karate a lot because it seems more promising in striking a healthier balance. In other words even though a practitioner may not be the best fighter in the world (because that is not their goal in life) they can still be confident in knowing that they're more than capable of self defense in any unwanted confrontations. It was designed to be a self defense art. Other traditional arts are delusional and can only get their students seriously wounded or killed. I don't mean to knock anyones martial art that they devoted so much of themselves to but Kalaripayattu and Tai Chi fall under those camps. Edited January 27, 2021 by Oneironaut Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dwai Posted January 27, 2021 (edited) 33 minutes ago, Oneironaut said: Glad we could agree on something. But mentality could only get you so far. Aside from the proper mentality you also need techniques that are effective and the training to show you how those techniques can be readily applied in live combat situations. what technique will you use if someone comes at you with a knife? Quote Those idiots are no taiji masters. These are just huge publicity gimmicks. Talking about mentality, let me paint this picture for you. Recently, there were border clashes between the Chinese army and Indian army in the Himalayas (last summer). Because they were asked to keep the action below firearm-level, the Chinese army sent soldiers with spiked clubs, etc (real primitive stuff). They thought they were superior, more in number, from a richer, more powerful (on paper) military, better facilities, etc. They probably thought it was going to be a “walk in the park”. Sadly, 20 Indian soldiers were killed in the fracas, and some accounts say about 100+ Chinese soldiers were killed. An Indian special forces unit joined the fray, and unleashed such a brutal counterattack to the Chinese provocation that just one soldier took 15-16 Chinese soldiers with him, necks snapped, etc. The Chinese soldiers didn’t know what hit them. Do you know why? Because they’d never seen real combat before, whereas the Indian soldiers have been fighting terrorists non-stop since the 1980s, has unfortunately had to fight at least 3 full fledged wars with Pakistan, Maoist insurgents, mujahideens etc. Thats why Israeli armed forces, US armed forces too are lethal — they have field experience. It’s a sad fact, but nothing hardens a warrior more than war. Right after that incident, someone leaked a video of a bus full of Chinese soldiers wailing and sobbing on their way to deployment on the western front. Quote This is what I think of when it comes to TCM, Eskrima, Kali, kalaripayatuu and functionless forms of karate even. Some guys that practice traditional arts may be tough and in great shape but there's a such thing as being "in shape" and being "in fighting shape". Military men for example are extremely tough and in very good shape but they would get absolutely slaughtered in hand to hand combat when it comes to fighting someone who specializes in those disciplines. It's not at all far fetched to say that an obese boxer with decent hand skills can easily knock out a military guy who exercises all day. Ha! I’d like to see someone try. I mean a real fight, no rules — a soldier will rip the boxer apart. Quote We can partly agree here. I would say fighting efficacy is important however it can be taken to unhealthy extremes like we see in combat sports. I hate being judgmental but I can't help seeing the majority of those competition fighting guys as low IQ brutes who would otherwise be dead or in prison if it was not for fighting. I respect certain specific styles of karate a lot because it seems more promising in striking a healthier balance. In other words even though a practitioner may not be the best fighter in the world (because that is not their goal in life) they can still be confident in knowing that they're more than capable of self defense in any unwanted confrontations. It was designed to be a self defense art. Other traditional arts are delusional and can only get their students seriously wounded or killed. I don't mean to knock anyones martial art that they devoted so much of themselves to but Kalari and Tai Chi fall under those camps. *yawn!* Watch this for some real wisdom on fighting -- Edited January 27, 2021 by dwai 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Oneironaut Posted January 27, 2021 (edited) 20 minutes ago, dwai said: what technique will you use if someone comes at you with a knife? Gun-jutsu is the best technique when someone comes at you with a knife. Quote Those idiots are no taiji masters. These are just huge publicity gimmicks. Those are real tai chi masters. I don't agree with everything the person in that video was saying but one thing we can agree on is that tai chi is not designed for combat. Quote Ha! I’d like to see someone try. I mean a real fight, no rules — a soldier will rip the boxer apart. A real fight to the death in hand to hand combat (no weapons) it's RIP soldier. A below average boxer would put the soldier 6 feet under ground. If it was war or a fight of survival with weapons involved the soldier will 100% win. These are two completely different disciplines and two entirely different ways of fighting. Edited January 27, 2021 by Oneironaut 1 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted January 27, 2021 (edited) 6 hours ago, Oneironaut said: You're very welcome! 6 hours ago, Oneironaut said: Someplace else you've spoken down on karate and mentioned the supposed martial superiority of kali/eskrima over it Oh, I see now . It did not t have to do with what you quoted me as saying here . It had to do with some thing you where holding onto that I said elsewhen and elsewhere , where you decide not to respond , or maybe did , and didnt like the answer you got . Anyway, I see the 'threadstarter' here doesnt mind some slight diversions , so , let;s examine this : Quote . I'm not going to waste time digging but if you'd like to you can. I see, you are NOT going to make a reference to what I actually said, but are going to paraphrase it in your own words AND leave out any background and context as to what was said . But you will not waste time looking up this thread/s but will rely on your memory of what you have been holding on to AND THEN invite me to waste my time trying to find and supply background and context ? Quote In your more recent post you failed to mention that the reason Kalaripayattu loses against karate is because Kalaripayattu does not work. It doesn't matter if it's in a dojo, in the streets, on the beach or in some remote location. I said " Kalaripayattu loses against karate " . ? Or is this more of your 'memory' 'paraphrasing ' I see again you are not directly quoting me . Where did I say " Kalaripayattu loses against karate " ? Nor did I mention ANY reasons related to such a topic. UNLESS You meant I failed to mention ALL OF THAT ? Well, yeah . I also failed to mention a lot of things ; some , apparently are the things you think. I probably also failed to mention everything that dwai thinks , or anything Illumarin thinks . I could try to rectify it ; HEY GUYS ! Oneerionaught thnks Kalaripayattu loses against karate and blah ... blah ( see above ) There you go . ( Not that I would think such a general and silly thing myself,. But If anyone else feels I am not mentioning stuff they are thinking or feeling, please send me a list and I will try my best to list them all in a post for you . ) Quote Yes. That's mostly dependent on the style and their approach to techniques that can be applied in a live fight situation against someone with ill intent. Someone that's REALLY trying to hurt you and not just theory. There are full contact karate styles with this approach in mind and if anything is holding karate back from evolving even further it's really the politics. Oh, thats what you mean by 'battle' . I have a different understanding of the word ... the dictionary meaning ; " a sustained fight between large organized armed forces " A lot more is holding karate back from developing than politics ! And that also depends on definition . How should it 'develop' ? as a money making enterprise with 1000s of dojos American style . As a slowed down archicortical tradition using the unique Japanese cultural insanity of 'tatme and honne ' ? or as the orignal masters in Okinawa intended , under the contracts they made with the first westerners that trained there ? As a blood sport ? As 'sports karate' ? As 'sports karate' entering and adapting into the MMA field (another sport ) . What ? Quote I have seen variations of hikite used in combat sports with success. You are on the subject but this isnt any type of answer to what I actually asked about hikite . Anyway ... how was it used in combat sports with success. Quote The chambering may not be exaggerated but the same exact principle still applies. Okay, then what is this exact same principle of ' the chambering ' . Quote I also don't see anyone getting into a horse stance during kumite or MMA. Oh dear , do I need to post a string of videos . Maybe you are not looking close or fast enough , its there all the time . But again the words 'getting into horse stance ' seem a bit of a giveaway . Like it is assumed that one would be standing there in a formal kata / kihon exercise of 'being' in horse stance but not in its dynamic moving form in real application ; moving off line angling off, take down , follow downs . Here is a collection of them in one video . With a bit of advice that goes beyond 'white belt' (or 3 dan black , depending on where and with you you train ) on horse stance ... from the MMA perspective . Not that you 'not seeing this' helps explain my question about hikite . Quote Some dojos probably don't allow hikite during sparring so it mostly stays within kihon, kata and the realm of theory. Why would they not allow it ? and to return to my original question : Why use hikite in kuhon, and kata ? What does it represent , what are you doing by doing hikite ? Also what is the 'theory' about it ? - which is pretty much the same question as 'why do it ' ? I hope you understand the question by now ? Quote There are MMA fighters out there who hybridize tsuki and boxing punch technique in MMA with success so it's not like tsuki does not work. I am not saying tsuki does not work , I am asking why do hikite WITH tsuki ? I agree that all sorts of 'hybridized punches' can work ... especially if opponents are not used to them ! Quote It does and it's designed to be used without gloves. Here's a fun fact: Gloves entirely change the dynamic of a fight. I know tsuki 'works', I never said it didnt . and yes, I do know karate didnt traditionally wear gloves Gloves also hamper a wide range of other hand / finger strikes and techniques and blunt the force of striking the Kyushu - its hard to use the middle knuckle joint or point of big toe with 'gloves' on ... even grappling gloves is a restriction . . The only time I use padded gloves is when I have a jo and go against a bokken, for certain exercises ( that is , in more realistic training experiments; the swordsman will go for a strike on the jo and slide to smash the fingers , or a direct strike on the fingers , because his weapon has a hand guard and the jo has not . The jo wielder must adapt their technique accordingly ). So I do know about that .... a bit. Looking forwards to your responses about 'hitike' . Edited January 27, 2021 by Nungali 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted January 27, 2021 5 hours ago, dwai said: If I had a dollar for every time an ‘expert’ comments on which martial art is “effective” and which is not....🙄 My sifu says, if you want to fight, practice fighting, not martial arts Martial Arts is for something else, though you can use it to fight, if you practice fighting with it. Funny story — when I was in college, there was a big fight between two political factions. One friend, a 6’2” 200 lb karate black belt (3rd Dan I believe) decided to take some street fighters (from the opposing faction) on. He kicked a few guys, they fell a few feet away, promptly got up and came at him again. Soon, 6-7 guys jumped on him — all he could do is protect his vitals and get the crap beat out of him. Another friend, was an unassuming guy, learned to fight from Thai laborers since when he was kid in the Andaman Islands. He got into a fight with some thugs from a local slum, beat the living daylights out of them. They ran for reinforcements. He kicked their asses too. He was half the karate guy’s size. He told me, he could do that because he grew up fighting - he was a fighter. Oooh goody - stories .... My teacher once fought a tiger and .... . Nah . Real fighters are a different kettle of fish . I know a guy - outback bare knuckle boxing champ ... and they tough ! Amy martial artists that fights him had better watch out . He has easily cleaned up 3 on 1 . Thugs that are used to fighting, but not used to people like him . he gets a lot better after he is drunk and has been punched in the head a few times ... then he comes 'good' . Still, I seen him intimidated and back off from a flurry of quick distracting kicks at his knees and same with finger eye strikes . Same with an MMA guy ... its against their 'rules' so they are not used to it . But they are used to a whole lot of other stuff, like taking a massive amount of punishment and still continuing ...... for a few years . 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Earl Grey Posted January 27, 2021 2 hours ago, Oneironaut said: tai chi is not designed for combat. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted January 27, 2021 5 hours ago, Oneironaut said: Only I never claimed to be an expert. Just someone who considers themselves a student of the game. I just stated a few simple facts. If only I had a dollar for anyone that gets offended when facts are spoken... Certain martial arts shouldn't have the term "martial" attached to it. Art? Sure... but there's nothing martial about them. I don't mind the spiritual component. If it gives you mental strength more power to you. If meditation eases your anxiety and makes you more focused and a sharper fighter I'm all for it as well. I have yet to see chi/ki being used in a fight application but I'm still very open minded. Which McDojo or daycare center posing as a "karate" gym did your friend practice in? You have people who aren't chest thumping brutes, getting into fights every weekend AND trained in authentic karate styles who can do that too. Does that not make them fighters? I agree that it is unfortunate that his chanel is called 'karate tv' . It should be called ' Kalari Payyatu TV' What is your definition of ' authentic karate styles' Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted January 27, 2021 3 hours ago, Oneironaut said: ..... Military men for example are extremely tough and in very good shape but they would get absolutely slaughtered in hand to hand combat when it comes to fighting someone who specializes in those disciplines. It's not at all far fetched to say that an obese boxer with decent hand skills can easily knock out a military guy who exercises all day. And not too far fetched to say that a piped up 'youngun' , even in the same tradition , can get one over on 'Old Pop ' . The cheeky blighter is smiling and laughing ! For a little while .... 3 hours ago, Oneironaut said: We can partly agree here. I would say fighting efficacy is important however it can be taken to unhealthy extremes like we see in combat sports. I hate being judgmental but I can't help seeing the majority of those competition fighting guys as low IQ brutes who would otherwise be dead or in prison if it was not for fighting. I respect a handful of specific styles of karate a lot because it seems more promising in striking a healthier balance. In other words even though a practitioner may not be the best fighter in the world (because that is not their goal in life) they can still be confident in knowing that they're more than capable of self defense in any unwanted confrontations. It was designed to be a self defense art. Other traditional arts are delusional and can only get their students seriously wounded or killed. I don't mean to knock anyones martial art that they devoted so much of themselves to but Kalaripayattu and Tai Chi fall under those camps. It seems you are claiming that ALL other martial arts BUT karate are in those camps . I am wondering what specific type of karate you mean , or what one you have personal experience with , to give you this opinion ? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nam Sao Posted January 27, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, Oneironaut said: Those are real tai chi masters. I don't agree with everything the person in that video was saying but one thing we can agree on is that tai chi is not designed for combat. I agree with the point about the difference between being in good shape vs fighting shape, but AFAIK, Xu Xiaodong has only fought frauds as far as wing chun and tai chi sifus. And I'm not saying that this means that otherwise you'd see MMA fighters getting beat by kung fu guys, but more that, if you look up these tai chi and wing chun masters (those are the ones I looked up), you really cant find any information about their schools and sifus. Sure they may have a youtube channel and some students, but kung fu lineages are often easier to look up. Who are the sifus of these masters? Out of curiosity, and this is to anyone reading this: if you saw this performance, would you think: "Ahh, it's apparent that this man's claims to being a tai chi master are indeed true" to any degree? Edited January 27, 2021 by Nam Sao Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Oneironaut Posted January 27, 2021 3 hours ago, Nungali said: She did say its a perfectly valid response. But more importantly....... she's hot! 3 hours ago, Nungali said: Oh, I see now . It did not t have to do with what you quoted me as saying here . It had to do with some thing you where holding onto that I said elsewhen and elsewhere , where you decide not to respond , or maybe did , and didnt like the answer you got . Anyway, I see the 'threadstarter' here doesnt mind some slight diversions , so , let;s examine this : I see, you are NOT going to make a reference to what I actually said, but are going to paraphrase it in your own words AND leave out any background and context as to what was said . But you will not waste time looking up this thread/s but will rely on your memory of what you have been holding on to AND THEN invite me to waste my time trying to find and supply background and context ? Human memory has an odd way of working. It's been scientifically proven that humans have a much easier time remembering absurd or peculiar things. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/06/170619092713.htm You fit the description of a formless avatar floating in virtual space and filled with nothing but absurdities. Very easy to associate and have it trigger reliable memories. 3 hours ago, Nungali said: I said " Kalaripayattu loses against karate " . ? Or is this more of your 'memory' 'paraphrasing ' I see again you are not directly quoting me . Where did I say " Kalaripayattu loses against karate " ? Nor did I mention ANY reasons related to such a topic. I never said you mentioned any of that. That's confabulation on your behalf. 3 hours ago, Nungali said: UNLESS You meant I failed to mention ALL OF THAT ? Well, yeah . I also failed to mention a lot of things ; some , apparently are the things you think. I probably also failed to mention everything that dwai thinks , or anything Illumarin thinks . Forget about what others think. What's important is that you fail to keep your delusions in check and ramble on with misinformation. 3 hours ago, Nungali said: I could try to rectify it ; HEY GUYS ! Oneerionaught thnks Kalaripayattu loses against karate and blah ... blah ( see above ) There you go . I don't think Kalaripayattu loses against karate. I KNOW it does. Huge difference. Create the conditions for a cross style matchup and the results will speak in my favor. 3 hours ago, Nungali said: ( Not that I would think such a general and silly thing myself,. But If anyone else feels I am not mentioning stuff they are thinking or feeling, please send me a list and I will try my best to list them all in a post for you . ) A list obviously does you no good. You'll just misread or confabulate again. 3 hours ago, Nungali said: Oh, thats what you mean by 'battle' . I have a different understanding of the word ... the dictionary meaning ; " a sustained fight between large organized armed forces " The dictionary meaning also expands on this definition. It doesn't have to be locked into only what you want it to mean. I encourage you to go and see for yourself and if that triggers you then take it out on the dictionary. I'm just pointing out the facts. 3 hours ago, Nungali said: A lot more is holding karate back from developing than politics ! And that also depends on definition . How should it 'develop' ? as a money making enterprise with 1000s of dojos American style . As a slowed down archicortical tradition using the unique Japanese cultural insanity of 'tatme and honne ' ? or as the orignal masters in Okinawa intended , under the contracts they made with the first westerners that trained there ? As a blood sport ? As 'sports karate' ? As 'sports karate' entering and adapting into the MMA field (another sport ) . What ? What are you talking about? All the examples you mentioned fall under some form of politics. 3 hours ago, Nungali said: Oh dear , do I need to post a string of videos . Maybe you are not looking close or fast enough , its there all the time . But again the words 'getting into horse stance ' seem a bit of a giveaway . Like it is assumed that one would be standing there in a formal kata / kihon exercise of 'being' in horse stance but not in its dynamic moving form in real application ; moving off line angling off, take down , follow downs . Maybe word your question better about hikite and there would be no confusion. 3 hours ago, Nungali said: Here is a collection of them in one video . With a bit of advice that goes beyond 'white belt' (or 3 dan black , depending on where and with you you train ) on horse stance ... from the MMA perspective . Where's the video? 3 hours ago, Nungali said: Not that you 'not seeing this' helps explain my question about hikite . Why would they not allow it ? and to return to my original question : Why use hikite in kuhon, and kata ? What does it represent , what are you doing by doing hikite ? Also what is the 'theory' about it ? - which is pretty much the same question as 'why do it ' ? I hope you understand the question by now ? Hikite in kuhon and kata are just for drills. It represents grabbing a person by an article of clothing, an arm, their head etc. and pulling them towards you as you deliver a punch. In theory the pulling and the landing of the punch makes it more powerful. I have seen something mechanically similar applied successfully in bareknuckle boxing. Hikite is also used in judo and other karate styles have very creative and functional ways of using it. Do you understand the response? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Oneironaut Posted January 27, 2021 (edited) Quote It seems you are claiming that ALL other martial arts BUT karate are in those camps . That's not what I said. My awesome memory tells me that I did include karate in there with ALL other martial arts and made it clear that certain karate styles, not all, are exceptional (and they are) when it comes to "traditional" martial arts that are still functional today and have the potential to be even better. Go back and reread for yourself. Have fun. I'm sure the much less functional karate styles and other traditional martial arts have some redeemable techniques that can be adopted and applied in actual combat or battle (there goes that word again). Quote I am wondering what specific type of karate you mean , or what one you have personal experience with , to give you this opinion ? Hold that thought. We'll save the good stuff for later. Show the effectiveness of Kalaripayattu. Edited January 27, 2021 by Oneironaut Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted January 27, 2021 (edited) 12 hours ago, Oneironaut said: She did say its a perfectly valid response. But more importantly....... she's hot! Human memory has an odd way of working. It's been scientifically proven that humans have a much easier time remembering absurd or peculiar things. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/06/170619092713.htm You fit the description of a formless avatar floating in virtual space and filled with nothing but absurdities. Very easy to associate and have it trigger reliable memories. I never said you mentioned any of that. That's confabulation on your behalf. Forget about what others think. What's important is that you fail to keep your delusions in check and ramble on with misinformation. I don't think Kalaripayattu loses against karate. I KNOW it does. Huge difference. Aside from all your evasion , to avoid answering any questions - how do you KNOW Kalaripayattu loses against karate ? This is your problem , you generalise to a type of 'patriotic ' degree . What if its a shit karate guy against a very good Kalaripayattu ? Quote Create the conditions for a cross style matchup and the results will speak in my favor. Thats no priof of anything . Anyone can just type out words like that its merely 'proof' by personal assertion ; Create the conditions for a cross style matchup and the results will speak in Kalaripayattu favour . - see . Quote A list obviously does you no good. You'll just misread or confabulate again. The dictionary meaning also expands on this definition. It doesn't have to be locked into only what you want it to mean. I encourage you to go and see for yourself and if that triggers you then take it out on the dictionary. I'm just pointing out the facts. What are you talking about? All the examples you mentioned fall under some form of politics. Thats a wide definition of politics ! I could explain all those things using other motivations . Quote Maybe word your question better about hikite and there would be no confusion. Where's the video? It didnt appear in the post for some reason . Since I need to posit , it appears you really have not seen the use of a horse stance in MMA HINT - you can just google 'use of horse stance in MMA' , if you ever decide to educate yourself about this - unless you are too biased to allow r to watch it ? but anyway ; the first part is for your elucidation the second shows examples with stop go motion on the use of the stance . Its actually one of the MOST common used stances when executing a technique , especially in close quarters Quote Hikite in kuhon and kata are just for drills. It represents grabbing a person by an article of clothing, an arm, their head etc. and pulling them towards you as you deliver a punch. In theory the pulling and the landing of the punch makes it more powerful. I have seen something mechanically similar applied successfully in bareknuckle boxing. Hikite is also used in judo and other karate styles have very creative and functional ways of using it. Do you understand the response? Of course , now that you finally actually gave a response to the question. Thats what it is supposed to represent . But the extension of the question still stands ; why practice that in Kihon ? Why practice it when attacking and delivering a tsuki when the hand isnt grabbing anything ? Look at most karate drills And why use hikite when 'blocking ' - what ? You are going to seize a wrist and pull it in while you are blocking an initial tsuki attack ? why move the arm right across to the other side before 'blocking' ? Why point the other hand up before doing an 'upper block' with the other hand / arm ? A straight tsuki needs little force to direct it sideways off line . Same with a hooked or curved punch . So why do a hikate movement before a block when you have not even grasped anything ??? Look from 1:28 , why attack with a punch, and draw the other hand back, leaving that side of the head and body wide open to the really obvious and telegraphed 'counter' that is coming ? This is what I mean about bad practice , and exactly why some karateka get cleaned up by street fighters , MMA guys, boxers , etc . Why do things 'just for drills' when the drill teaches you a bad habit ? I asked a 6th Dan about this he said 'Its just a punching exercise " , I then asked ' Why teach a bad punching exercise then ?" He didnt have an answer . I invited him to punch my extended hand , he did and did a hikite movement with his other hand , out of habit , I cuffed him upside the head with my other hand . he didnt like that , but then I said 'Do same punch as in Sanchin " ( ie, no hikite ) when I tried to slap his head, he easily deflected it with a slight flick with his other arm's elbow . - he is still pondering it . karate training is more like : Punch me badly, drop your guard and leave the punching arm floating out there ... dont retract it ! Now I can do a senseless hikate first , grabbing nothing , block your punch and counter becasue you have no guard up , and I might also seize that arm that is STILL floating out there extended AFTER I have done my counter , and use that for the next counter or take down . @ 2:44 we have the tricky move of even a double hikite ! and at 3:09 we see this double seizing and pulling back .... without touching the other guy , being used as some type of telegraphed wind up to do the double block . If they knew the REAL applications, those movements would be totally different . and not look so silly, rigid, impractical downright 'suicidal ' . Why do karateka then constantly use hikite when attacking , ... and why is it NOT used in Sanchin ( first series of punches ) Maybe comments like these are what originally got your goat ; Most karate ka dont have a clue what they are doing and are practising corrupted forms due to several FACTS + The system was taught by the destroyed and defeated Okinawans to the Americans that defeated them - as if they where going to teach them everything or correct things ! + at an early stage, it was modified as a school physical education system , for children . + It got imported to Japan where they greatly corrupted and modified it and basically stole it and transformed it into a Japanese product ( like they where doing with just about everything back then - 'Made in Japan ' ) using non Japanese traditions (like French Savate - that just happened to be touring Jaoan at the exact time Funokoshi's son started making up modern JKA karate ) and adopting other parts of Japanese budo to make it more Japanese .. of yes, and modifed the kanji meaning to make Karate from 'Chinese Hand ' to 'Empty hand ' . Edited January 27, 2021 by Nungali 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted January 27, 2021 12 hours ago, Oneironaut said: That's not what I said. My awesome memory tells me that I did include karate in there with ALL other martial arts and made it clear that certain karate styles, not all, are exceptional (and they are) when it comes to "traditional" martial arts that are still functional today and have the potential to be even better. Go back and reread for yourself. Have fun. I'm sure the much less functional karate styles and other traditional martial arts have some redeemable techniques that can be adopted and applied in actual combat or battle (there goes that word again). Hold that thought. We'll save the good stuff for later. Show the effectiveness of Kalaripayattu. Hmmm ... I have been put on hold ..... all operators are currently busy .... your question will be attended to as soon as an operator is available Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dwai Posted January 28, 2021 (edited) 15 hours ago, Oneironaut said: I don't think Kalaripayattu loses against karate. I KNOW it does. Huge difference 😁 how do you know that? Have you seen all Kalaripayattu fighters go up against all karateka? Have you seen one? Have you seen enough to statistically surmise this? TBH I don’t particularly care for what you have to say on this subject, but I’m in a playful mood right now Meanwhile, I’m enjoying watching this video. Boys and girls, Seth is a good karateka. Be like Seth. Edited January 28, 2021 by dwai Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Oneironaut Posted January 28, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, dwai said: 😁 how do you know that? Have you seen all Kalaripayattu fighters go up against all karateka? Have you seen one? Have you seen enough to statistically surmise this? For the same reason I know that all Kalaripayattu practitioners would get destroyed by Muay Thai fighters. For the same reason I know that wing chun would get destroyed by boxers. I could just as easily say that weak karate styles (not all karate styles) would get destroyed by boxing or Muay Thai (and they have) yet kalaripayauttu and wing chun would lose to these weak karate styles. Quote TBH I don’t particularly care for what you have to say on this subject, You care so little that you have to go out of your way to defend useless arts. Okay..... Quote but I’m in a playful mood right now Good, because I am too. The title of that video is very misleading. Kalaripayattu is NOT the oldest martial art nor is it the source from which all other martial arts arose from. Edited January 28, 2021 by Oneironaut Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dwai Posted January 28, 2021 9 minutes ago, Oneironaut said: For the same reason I know that all Kalaripayattu practitioners would get destroyed by Muay Thai fighters. For the same reason I know that wing chun would get destroyed by boxers. That doesn’t really answer the question. HOW do you know? You’re saying, you know because you know. 9 minutes ago, Oneironaut said: I could just as easily say that weak karate styles (not all karate styles) would get destroyed by boxing or Muay Thai (and they have) yet kalaripayauttu and wing chun would lose to these weak karate styles. You care so little that you have to go out of your way to defend useless arts. Okay..... 😁 I’m not defending anything. I just find your dismissive attitude perplexing. Unless of course you’re here to troll. 9 minutes ago, Oneironaut said: Good, because I am too. The title of that video is very misleading. Kalaripayattu is NOT the oldest martial art nor is it the source from which all other martial arts arose from. Okay, take it up with the creator of the video. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Oneironaut Posted January 28, 2021 (edited) 5 hours ago, Nungali said: Aside from all your evasion , to avoid answering any questions - how do you KNOW Kalaripayattu loses against karate ? For the same reason I know that Tai Chi loses to Dutch style kick boxing. Dutch style kick boxing is really karate/muay thai/boxing. What in the world would make you think that kalaripayattu doesn't lost against karate? You can't fault me for not properly answering poorly worded questions but the intelligible ones have been answered fully and directly. . Quote This is your problem , you generalise to a type of 'patriotic ' degree . What if its a shit karate guy against a very good Kalaripayattu ?\ What is very good Kalaripayattu? You accuse others of evading questions but you have yet to fulfill any requests of showing kalaripayattu in all its martial glory. If it's a bad karate guy against a "very good" kalaripayattu I'd still put my money on the trash karate guy. Quote Thats no priof of anything . Anyone can just type out words like that its merely 'proof' by personal assertion ; Create the conditions for a cross style matchup and the results will speak in Kalaripayattu favour . - see . No, there's a sea of evidence. Evidence that's lacking on your part. My assertion isn't wrong either. I could just as easily say create the conditions for a cross style matchup between a person wielding a gun and another one with a plastic knife and the person using the gun will always win. That's a fact. Saying the opposite (as in your case) is a false equivalency and does not make it tr Quote Thats a wide definition of politics ! That's the nature of the beast. I didn't make it that way. Quote I could explain all those things using other motivations . Be my guest... Quote It didnt appear in the post for some reason . Since I need to posit , it appears you really have not seen the use of a horse stance in MMA HINT - you can just google 'use of horse stance in MMA' , if you ever decide to educate yourself about this - unless you are too biased to allow r to watch it ? but anyway ; the first part is for your elucidation My elucidation in learning just how severely deluded some people are. All of those were poor examples of horse stance in MMA. The best I've seen so far is using sumo stances to defend against wrestling takedowns. Quote why practice that in Kihon ? For no other reason other than your sensei told you to. Quote Why practice it when attacking and delivering a tsuki when the hand isnt grabbing anything ? Didn't I already answer that? Quote And why use hikite when 'blocking ' - what ? You are going to seize a wrist and pull it in while you are blocking an initial tsuki attack ? why move the arm right across to the other side before 'blocking' ? Why point the other hand up before doing an 'upper block' with the other hand / arm ? A straight tsuki needs little force to direct it sideways off line . Same with a hooked or curved punch . So why do a hikate movement before a block when you have not even grasped anything ??? When you're doing those upward blocks and chambering your non blocking hand to the hips you're defending against an upward attack and simultaneously bringing your opponent off balance. We used to do the exact same drill in taekwondo as a theoretical knife attack and the chambering was never explained. I never found the technique practical. Quote This is what I mean about bad practice , and exactly why some karateka get cleaned up by street fighters , MMA guys, boxers , etc . Why do things 'just for drills' when the drill teaches you a bad habit ? Agreed. Isn't this a reason to evolve the art and filter out useless drills and techniques? Perhaps even take the few redeemable drills and techniques from the more obscure styles. Whatever refuses to evolve needs to die out. Quote karate training is more like : Punch me badly, drop your guard and leave the punching arm floating out there ... dont retract it ! Now I can do a senseless hikate first , grabbing nothing , block your punch and counter becasue you have no guard up , and I might also seize that arm that is STILL floating out there extended AFTER I have done my counter , and use that for the next counter or take down . Generally speaking and it's something that needed change long ago. Thankfully there are karate styles that have made these changes decades ago. This is why I made no mention of more modernized styles. I'm just allowing you to erroneously paint karate as a monolithic style that falls to the confinements of other traditional martial arts. You still haven't answered or demonstrated as to how kalaripayattu does things better? Quote Most karate ka dont have a clue what they are doing and are practising corrupted forms due to several FACTS + The system was taught by the destroyed and defeated Okinawans to the Americans that defeated them - as if they where going to teach them everything or correct things ! + at an early stage, it was modified as a school physical education system , for children . + It got imported to Japan where they greatly corrupted and modified it and basically stole it and transformed it into a Japanese product ( like they where doing with just about everything back then - 'Made in Japan ' ) using non Japanese traditions (like French Savate - that just happened to be touring Jaoan at the exact time Funokoshi's son started making up modern JKA karate ) and adopting other parts of Japanese budo to make it more Japanese .. of yes, and modifed the kanji meaning to make Karate from 'Chinese Hand ' to 'Empty hand ' . Your "FACTS" are not facts at all. It's intellectually dishonest and historically inaccurate to call your claims "facts". The one that holds the most water is the modification for the physical education system. For one the Americans were not at war directly with the Okinawans. Secondly, I know exactly where you got the "karate stole it's kicks from French Savate" argument. This is a myth that spread across the internet as "historical fact" thanks to unreliable, pseudo history gathered on obscured internet forums from self proclaimed martial arts historians with 0 credentials. Some self proclaimed expert (everyone is an expert on the internet) gathered all this wrong information and bundled it up into a viral YouTube video where it goes unchallenged and passed off as history. Karate was influenced by Chinese fighting arts with no influence from savate. It's actually far more likely that savate stole it's kicks from kung fu styles as well as from fighters in Thailand during their travels across Asia. Edited January 28, 2021 by Oneironaut Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dwai Posted January 28, 2021 (edited) 5 hours ago, Nungali said: And why use hikite when 'blocking ' - what ? You are going to seize a wrist and pull it in while you are blocking an initial tsuki attack ? Interesting points wrt hikite. Of course, it’s been more than 2 decades since I practiced karate, so have forgotten most of the jargon...but I see “hikite” being used in many TMA. In the taiji context, we would use it as a dispersal and simultaneously striking, for example, in the form “fan through the back”. The withdrawing hand is actually doing a “tsai” (pluck or roll-pull) while the hand that moves forward is doing a “lieh” (split). This is relevant in the case of close quarter fighting especially, with both arms in action. But it can also be used in mid-range and long range with kicks etc as well. The tsai can be used to either disperse the force of an incoming strike or actually to break the root of the opponent while simultaneously striking with split, or elbow or even shoulder. The two (forwarding and withdrawing) form the yang and yin, so to speak. In terms of power generation (if we are speaking in terms of nei Jin, the yin hand could be substantial, driving insubstantial power (empty force) to the yang hand. But I could be wrong behind the reason for it in karate (there could be more than one of course). Edited January 28, 2021 by dwai Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dwai Posted January 28, 2021 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Oneironaut said: What is very good Kalaripayattu? You accuse others of evading questions but you have yet to fulfill any requests of showing kalaripayattu in all its martial glory. What would be a valid example of that? Point fighting? Cage fighting? Street fight? In Kalaripayattu, empty hand is the thing of last resort, as I understand it. If swords don’t work, if staves or spears don’t work, if daggers don’t work, then the empty hands come into play. It used to be a battlefield martial art. Sort of like how jujitsu used to be battlefield thing for the samurai. Empty hands only come into play if weapons are out of question. As I understand it, that’s how FMA operates, or silat, or many kungfu styles. Having done some sparring against a friend who’s an FMA guy, against a knife (a wooden one), I know my approach towards how to deal with such a scenario changed dramatically as soon as the blade slashed my arms, etc. Edited January 28, 2021 by dwai 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Oneironaut Posted January 28, 2021 (edited) 4 minutes ago, dwai said: What would be a valid example of that? Point fighting? Cage fighting? Street fight? Unarmed fighting. Cage fighting or street fighting. For all that sword fighting stuff take it out with the fencers. I know unarmed fighting came from fencing but fencing is completely out of my realm. Edited January 28, 2021 by Oneironaut Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dwai Posted January 28, 2021 1 minute ago, Oneironaut said: Unarmed fighting. Cage fighting or street fighting. So should I take it that you’re a video specialist? You can watch a video or two and know? That’s how you know Kalaripayattu is “useless”? Because you’ve not seen videos? 1 minute ago, Oneironaut said: For all that sword fighting stuff take it out with the fencers. I know unarmed fighting came from fencing but fencing is completely out of my realm. I’ll take your word for it 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
