Indian Martial Arts -- a good resource

[Shadao]

1 minute ago, Nungali said:

 

Man !  ... is that little bird that lives next door going to be pissed off !

 

 

Bird: Quit yer knocking!

[Nungali]

16 minutes ago, Cleansox said:

One of my teachers, a Police officer, had us training out in the snow, in stair cases, and one memorable weekend, in a bar (including the restrooms). 

 

Stair cases .  That seems to be the origin of some of the techniques in Chinto Kata .  Chinto was a 'pirate'  , a Chinese seaman washed up in North Okinawa, that turned into a 'bandit'. Matsamura  went to capture him, but could not best him in their fight . Chinto took a higher position up the back of a sea cave .  The Chinto kata has many unusual kicks from the 'hook stance' -  a one legged stance with the kicking foot held behind the other , to kick out and then return to that position .

 

During a fight on stairs , or from a similar situation ( a higher 'decking' ) it tends t be a battle over the higher ones lead leg ; the higher person is trying to kick the lower (as there isnt much more he can do )  the lower is trying to size  the others leg .  Chinto may have developed the technique fighting on boats - up and down stairs, landings and different levels on deck ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nam Sao]

14 hours ago, Knowthing said:

 

 

 

This is great

 

Looks a lot like stuff that Wing Chun and Choy Lee Fut guys do on the wall bag. 

 

 

[Oneironaut]

On 2/2/2021 at 2:01 PM, dwai said:

Now that the noisy element has been disabled, I am curious about the phenomenon of always reducing everything down to cage fighting -- why is that so?

 

You mean the noisy element of your cognitive dissonance?

 

Everything doesn’t always have to be reduced to cage fighting. For the past few decades it’s been a litmus test to weed out the garbage. 

 

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Is it simply a case of lack of exposure to real violence? I suspect most of these MMA-enthusiasts(TMA vs MMA) have never really seen violence, and view the world from the prism of their limited (or negligible) youtube black-belts.

 

Are you saying that MMA and boxing isn’t real violence? 

 

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Anyone who's ever been in a real fight will know that none of the so-called "effective" cage-ready martial arts are really very useful in the real world, where there is an assailant (usually there are more than one) who is hell-bent on causing grievous injury (with weapons etc). Movements have to be minimalistic, direct, non-telegraphed, and effective. Which is sort of the anti-thesis of cage-fighting, which involves massively telegraphed punches, kicks, takedowns, etc, etc. 

 

So you’re one of those guys. Your martial art is too dangerous for the cage or the ring and all that other weak stuff. 

 

I hope you realize that anything a trained cage fighter can do in a cage, under a specific ruleset, he will be able to do even better against multiple assailants in the streets. Their best bet would be to bring weapons. 

 

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Self-defense and sport-fighting have very dramatic and significant differences. 

 

To a degree. Let’s not be dishonest by exaggerating these differences. 

Edited February 9, 2021 by Oneironaut

[Oneironaut]

On 2/2/2021 at 5:15 PM, Nam Sao said:

 

There are numerous problems with this way of seeing things, to name a few:

 

For one, you start out talking about tie "martial" aspect of martial arts, but by the end of your post you focus solely on unarmed combat. Martial arts covers far more than unarmed combat. 

 

That’s an unwarranted assumption on your behalf. I’m aware of weapons training being a form of martial art. No one ever said that it isn’t. I will say that learning fencing is very impractical in modern times. Not only that but you can’t master it all. You can’t decide to be a fencer today, a kick boxer tomorrow and then a wrestler by Monday. Thats trying to learn everything and in the end you will have learned nothing. 

 

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Second, competitive fighting is not the only indicator of the effectiveness of a martial art.

 

Yes it is. It’s a large element that determines its overall effectiveness. The other part is effective technique which is typically forged under pressure testing conditions. How else will you know if something works?

 

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Why do competitive fighters generally beat non-competitive fighters? It's pretty simple: 

 

Read above. 

 

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There is a world of difference between those who train to compete and those who  don't. Whether it's kung fu, bjj, boxing, muay thai, etc...none of it works as well in a cage or competitive setting unless you train for that. 

 

Fixed. 

 

This is generally true but it can’t be equally applied to everything. Some martial arts work. Others don’t. 

 

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Also, comparing martial arts only in light of competitive fighting has its flaws. Some arts simply have never had a competitive format because they were never intended for that purpose. Using boxing as an example, it has been trained as a competitive sport for at least centuries (like far longer). Something like Wing Chun on the other hand, they're only entering that world now. And like with many beginnings, there's going to be trial and error. 

 

And don’t expect Wing Chun to go anywhere even under a competitive format. There’s a reason why Bruce Lee (who wasn’t even much of a competitor by the way) dropped the majority of what he learned in Wing Chun and took up boxing, savate and wrestling instead. 

 

The whole “it’s not the art but the fighter” thing has been beaten to death. No two arts are created equal. You need to realize the errors of your argument when you try to put all martial arts on equal footing. It’s far more complicated than what you’re making it out to be. There’s many different martial arts yet so few of them work under fight situations. 

 

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Another issue is that most self defense situations are not at the level of competitive fighting.

 

I’ve already addressed that pages earlier. 

 

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It's funny how some people act like it's generally competitive fighters that are starting fights in bars and trying to rob people.

 

Some of them. Not all of them. I think I also pointed this out. 

 

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One may not be able to win a fight in a ring or cage, but if they can knock out the angry drunk at the bar or the crackhead trying to rob them, then their martial arts skill is indeed extremely useful for self defense. 

 

I guess we can call weight lifting, body weight exercises and cardio training a martial art since being in more athletic condition does give one a significant advantage in a confrontation against untrained adversaries. 

 

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Finally, I think it's safe to say that whether it's intentional or not, you have a strawman view of stuff like Chinese martial arts. For example, you have yet to explain why you insist that the Tai Chi guy that Xu Xiaodong beat up was an actual master. If you sincerely are able to look at the supposed "kung fu masters" that Xu Xiaodong has beaten and conclude that those were legitimate masters, you have an unrealistically low standard for those arts (and a low standard for research, at least on this topic, if you made this conclusion while never finding out about the Sifus of these supposed masters).

 

How is it a straw man view when we can find mountains of evidence to back up what I’m saying? 

 

Saying that those weren’t legitimate masters is a no true Scotsman fallacy. Why hasn’t there been any “legitimate kung fu masters” that descended from some mountain and taught these MMA guys a lesson? Is their kung fu too deadly for the streets? 

 

In their defense however I have seen a few Sanda guys do okay in professional MMA so there could be some potential. 

Edited February 9, 2021 by Oneironaut

[Oneironaut]

On 2/2/2021 at 2:14 PM, dwai said:

But, on the street, will these techniques really look like they do in the ring?

 

Yes! 

 

Most MMA guys have horribly sloppy boxing and Muay Thai but in all fairness they aren’t strikers. They’re grapplers that picked up some striking. Very unrefined and ugly striking but the grappling element adds a new dimension of things to really worry about. 

 

The ones who have a strong or primary striking background do have technique that’s beautiful to look at and is reminiscent of their art however being beautiful doesn’t always win fights. 

[Oneironaut]

On 2/2/2021 at 5:20 PM, Nungali said:

below you comment  that :  

 " your crazy assumptions and false generations that others in here obviously share with you. "

 

And I stand by it 100% though it’s obviously not everyone but it’s enough to be a cause for concern.

 

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You know why they share them with me ?   Because they are not false assumptions  .

 

Wrong! 

 

Its because of group think among people who prefer to believe in martial fairy tales and anyone challenging those dreams is made out to be a threat. 

 

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YOU are the one making some rather silly basic mistakes here , and others can clearly see it . 

 

Please clarify 

 

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Many martial artists realise that a formal practice will be adapted in a dynamic situation , but it seems you  are not one of them .

 

If that were the case I wouldn’t be criticizing certain “martial” arts. 

 

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You will see all sorts of silly karate at 'higher levels ' thats my complaint about it , And the video I posted of that silly hikite movement done by  SENIORS , black belts , making a video to promote their style or technique .

 

Thats called a McDojo. 

 

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No, I am telling you hat you seem so stupid that you have now gone backwards in comprehension , just when you previously seemed to be half getting what I was saying .

 

There’s nothing to comprehend on your end. It’s just you making a pointless argument over a basic TMA drill. A former TMA drill that WILL be adapted to suit a dynamic situation. You were supposed to be the “expert” at this but here I am explaining it to you. In fact I’ve already explained it to you ages ago and you’re still bitching. 

 

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Which is , yet again ( for anyone that got confused by Oneironaut's  flapping about )

 

Maybe if you’d quit hitting the crack pipe things might be a little bit more understandable for you. 

 

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When defending ;

When the punchy guy punches, why does the one defending  fling  one arm out  first and not grab anything, and withdraw that arm while he is  blocking  the punch that is coming, then punch back and  withdraw the other arm .  if hikite is a grab and pull in for a punch, why do hikite while you do a block  ? 

 

You need to pay attention to your grammar. Did you pass the fourth grade?

 

Heres what though...

“Many martial artists realise that a formal practice will be adapted in a dynamic situation , but it seems you  are not one of them .”

 

Does that sound familiar to you? You project it onto others but fail to apply this to yourself 

 

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When attacking :

Why, does punchy guy when attacking the other one , punch with one arm and draw the other arm and hand back to his hip, leaving his guard down and his head exposed ?  The punchy guy is initiating the attack , why pull his hand back as he punches , there was never any punch from the other to seize and pull back . And I am not talking about lone practice in the air , I am talking about two guys practising a techniques .

 

and I fail to see why , with the explained question and the video together , one can  not comprehend the question ?

 

There are many things you fail to see. Let’s start with the statement below:

 

“Many martial artists realise that a formal practice will be adapted in a dynamic situation , but it seems you  are not one of them .”

 

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Again, you seem to have gone backwards - you seemed to be getting the point ... but nw you have reverted to what you saying pages back ; you are grabbing and pulling when punching .

 

Initially I said grabbing and pulling while blocking to off balance the attacker. You can set many things up here. 

 

If you have a free hand that isn’t blocking and can grab/pull the attacker towards you then you can apply tsuki if circumstances permit it. I remember saying that also.

 

Remember: Many martial artists realise that a formal practice will be adapted in a dynamic situation , but it seems you  are not one of them .

 

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I am asking why do the movement for every punch and even block when you are not grabbing at all .

 

get it yet ?

 

Seems you failed to get this:

 

Many martial artists realise that a formal practice will be adapted in a dynamic situation , but it seems you  are not one of them .

 

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Oh, sure there are .   Its these type of drills though that I am referring to , a bad drill gives bad habits ; drilling   punching  while you drop your guard is bad practice  ... any one knows that  .... except some of these karate guys .

 

Wait! Are you saying that these karate guys should also drop kata? 

 

The same block/chamber, punch/chamber sequence is repeated throughout many kata. Okinawan style karate has them in kata and we practiced them in Taekwondo as well. Are you saying that maybe they need to reduce them or get rid of it altogether? Perhaps even “modernize” karate a little bit more? 

 

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No , they are NOT   crazy assumptions that others here share with me .

 

Just the ones engaged in the group think. Group think isn’t good for you and it shows. 

 

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Unless you are going to postulate that  TDBs  is full of crazy people ... except you    

 

I think we established that multiple times unless you’re still hitting that crack pipe. Pay a little bit more attention. 

 

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I call that 'modern karate' .  Its for kids and sport . It isnt like  traditional old style karate that was used for self defence , fighting  and 'body guard ' work ( including minding the king ) .  Traditional style  ( 'seito' )  is deadly . 

 

Your definition of “modern karate” is 50 to 100 years behind and traditional style karate is no longer (for the most part) applicable in today’s world. Karate (some styles) have evolved and hopefully it will continue to.

 

Get with the program. 

 

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I could not give a flying f*** at the Moon about what you think anymore .  The explanation is written out here to help others try and decipher the mess you have made this topic into .

 

I’m sure the moon could give less of a flying f***. 

 

Don’t try gas lighting and pinning this onto me. You’re the one here spreading misinformation. The ones who are more rational and realistic in approach can figure out their own solution. They don’t need anyone on the internet (especially YOU out of all people) to give them any kind of “help”. Anyone with some sense can see right through your garbage. 

Edited February 9, 2021 by Oneironaut

[Oneironaut]

On 2/2/2021 at 5:42 PM, dwai said:

I guess the point I was trying to make is, that none of these martial arts, even these "so-called effective martial arts" look like how they do when performed stylistically (form). Everything happens fast, with practically no visible form. 

Taijiquan doesn't look like "taijiquan", Karate doesn't look like "Karate", Muay Thai doesn't look like "Muay Thai" and so on...

 

You keep telling yourself that. Whatever you need to tell yourself that prevents you from staying up at night. 

[Oneironaut]

On 2/2/2021 at 6:00 PM, Nungali said:

gets slammed on back , cant move for 20 seconds wile the other tries to get in a position to do something  .... then as he pins him 1 ..... 2 ..... 

 

I can move again ! - throws him off .

 

man!   I didnt know Bollywood style 'professional ' world championship wrestling  had come so far ! 

 

 Over here when that stuff was popular , for some reason , a lot of kids from 'special school' ( intellectual disestablishes)  made up half the audience - they LOVED IT !    - I knew people that would go and deliberately  cheer the 'bad guy' .... which really infuriated  the ''special kids'  .            ( oh my what some people do for entertainment  ; teasing the  disabled at a  a  ' professional'  wrestling match   )

 

Oh wait !  I have been doing that here myself with Onionaught  .    

 

Coming from the guy with 4th grade grammar and even worse in the reading comprehension department. If I’m disabled and I can make a far more reasonable argument (and I have) then what does that make you? Really something for you to think about...

 

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(I'll stop now as I just saw he got a 'vacation'    ... I DID try to warn him about that )

 

 

That’s called censorship. Unfortunately it’s not equally applied. Can’t expect anything less from poor moderation. 

Edited February 9, 2021 by Oneironaut

[ilumairen]

3 hours ago, Oneironaut said:

That’s called censorship. Unfortunately it’s not equally applied. Can’t expect anything less from poor moderation. 

Hi Oneirnaut,

 

Your opinions and views are not being “censored,” and are actually welcome (as far as I am concerned). The issue arises with the argument style and use of personal put downs (of which I just read a few in the posts made since your return). Please try to discuss the subject matter, and not the individual’s posting things you disagree with. If it helps, you could consider it competition “fighting” where breaking this simple rule will get you disqualified from the present fight and possibly barred from future matches.

 

[dwai]

55 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

Hi Oneirnaut,

 

Your opinions and views are not being “censored,” and are actually welcome (as far as I am concerned). The issue arises with the argument style and use of personal put downs (of which I just read a few in the posts made since your return). Please try to discuss the subject matter, and not the individual’s posting things you disagree with. If it helps, you could consider it competition “fighting” where breaking this simple rule will get you disqualified from the present fight and possibly barred from future matches.

 

The suspension was precisely because of what you pointed out.

 

The ask is simply to avoid posting diatribes based on personal peeves when the original topic was created for aesthetic & informational reasons, and not to compare lethality of different martial arts  

 

 

 

Edited February 9, 2021 by dwai

[Cleansox]

5 hours ago, Oneironaut said:

 

I think we established that multiple times unless you’re still hitting that crack pipe. Pay a little bit more attention.

If you check your sources (use the search function) you will see that you are utterly wrong with this statement. 

At TDB, it's cannabis, not crack! 

[ilumairen]

8 hours ago, Oneironaut said:

You mean the noisy element of your cognitive dissonance?

 

8 hours ago, Oneironaut said:

So you’re one of those guys. Your martial art is too dangerous for the cage or the ring and all that other weak stuff. 

 

6 hours ago, Oneironaut said:

Maybe if you’d quit hitting the crack pipe things might be a little bit more understandable for you. 

 

6 hours ago, Oneironaut said:

You need to pay attention to your grammar. Did you pass the fourth grade?

 

6 hours ago, Oneironaut said:

Just the ones engaged in the group think. Group think isn’t good for you and it shows. 

 

6 hours ago, Oneironaut said:

I think we established that multiple times unless you’re still hitting that crack pipe. Pay a little bit more attention. 

 

6 hours ago, Oneironaut said:

Don’t try gas lighting and pinning this onto me. You’re the one here spreading misinformation. The ones who are more rational and realistic in approach can figure out their own solution. They don’t need anyone on the internet (especially YOU out of all people) to give them any kind of “help”. Anyone with some sense can see right through your garbage. 

 

6 hours ago, Oneironaut said:

You keep telling yourself that. Whatever you need to tell yourself that prevents you from staying up at night. 

 

6 hours ago, Oneironaut said:

Coming from the guy with 4th grade grammar and even worse in the reading comprehension department. If I’m disabled and I can make a far more reasonable argument (and I have) then what does that make you? Really something for you to think about...

The above comments were made after a weeklong suspension. I have separated them out and quoted them for clarity, and I am considering them an escalation.
 

The “Wild West” days of this forum ended some time ago, and while there was a period of time where there was no moderation and such personal insults and attempted takedowns went unchecked, that time has passed. You are now in direct violation of the rules and guidelines of this forum, and will be receiving another suspension. Upon your return, the choice is yours - either comply with the rules, or face being banned. 
 

[Nungali]

11 hours ago, Oneironaut said:

 

.....   etc  .

 

My answer to all of this has previously been outlined . You are back flogging a dead horse .

 

I wont bother responding as I can see your 7 day holiday did you no good and you are straight back here doing exactly what got you the 'holiday' in the first place .  Which I suspect may shortly be permanent  .

Edited February 9, 2021 by Nungali

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, Cleansox said:

If you check your sources (use the search function) you will see that you are utterly wrong with this statement. 

At TDB, it's cannabis, not crack! 

 

 

Thank you .   Anyone with common sense would realise I cant smoke crack ..  with my 'awesome expert  abilities ' combined with the super human traits crack gives ... I would be just too awesome  for   ..... awesomeness  ;

 

 

 

[Nam Sao]

20 hours ago, Oneironaut said:

 

That’s an unwarranted assumption on your behalf. I’m aware of weapons training being a form of martial art. No one ever said that it isn’t. I will say that learning fencing is very impractical in modern times. 

 

It's not an unwarranted assumption, in your previous post that I quoted, you started out by talking about martial arts that "work," and then wrote off Kalaripyattu as something that doesn't work on the basis of cage fighting.  

 

Weapons training has plenty of use in actual self defense scenarios that people regularly deal with, whether it's attacker with knives, bats, guns, etc. In fact, I think a strong case can be made that in "modern times," there are exponentially far more instances of a person protecting himself from a person or multiple persons who are not anywhere near the level of a competitive fighters and will likely have some sort of weapon than you will have examples of people having to defend themselves from competitive fighters. Traditional arts have plenty of self defense uses in your average self defense scenario. 

20 hours ago, Oneironaut said:

Not only that but you can’t master it all. You can’t decide to be a fencer today, a kick boxer tomorrow and then a wrestler by Monday. Thats trying to learn everything and in the end you will have learned nothing. 

 

You really don't need to master any art for the purpose of self defense. Plus, don't many MMA fighters cross train in arts that are not their specialties for the purpose of growing as a fighter? IIRC, some MMA schools even train in this manner primarily, putting together parts of various arts so that the students get an MMA base rather than just any one art. 

20 hours ago, Oneironaut said:

Yes it is. It’s a large element that determines its overall effectiveness. The other part is effective technique which is typically forged under pressure testing conditions. How else will you know if something works? 

Competitive fighting, AFAIK, is far more than just training the martial art in question. It includes good cardio to last the rounds, strength training, supplements, dieting, weight cutting, watching videos of opponents,  etc - all for the purpose of competing. In fact, when competitive fighters train for fights, they often spend the month or two before, at least, training very specifically for the fight in question. Any art, If it's not trained for competition, won't work well in competition. But just because you can't prove your own skills in a competitive fighting setting (especially if you don't train for it) doesn't mean you can't defend yourself effectively outside of that setting. 

 

20 hours ago, Oneironaut said:

And don’t expect Wing Chun to go anywhere even under a competitive format. There’s a reason why Bruce Lee (who wasn’t even much of a competitor by the way) dropped the majority of what he learned in Wing Chun and took up boxing, savate and wrestling instead. 

 

Wing Chun is actually an excellent example to demonstrate my point because in it we have a relatively young form of traditional Chinese Martial Arts with no real history of regular competition that is now entering competitive settings and beginning to develop and even win. Alan Orr's MMA fighters train Wing Chun as their form of striking and BJJ as their grappling and they compete and win in MMA and Muay Thai settings. Qi La La is another person who, through trials, defeats, and more training, is beginning to be seen as a competitive Wing Chun fighter. 

 

As for Bruce Lee, he is not really a good example. Apart from not really being a competitor, he also trained Wing Chun for a few years (2, I think?) in his teens and had to work on it over time. It's not like he was some famous Wing Chun master who shed his art to create JKD (though Wing Chun Sifus def use his name to get students lol). Also, I think the idea that Bruce dropped Wing Chun is a misconception, since he primarily retains his Wing Chun flavor till he dies, Wing Chun material remain in his notes (though sometimes only in Chinese characters) and lots of his JKD drills, and some of his best students like Dan Inosanto sought out multiple Wing Chun masters after Bruce and still say that Wing Chun is an integral part of Bruce' JKD (though not necessarily theirs). It would seem strange for people like Dan Inosanto to seek out such an extensive level of Wing Chun training for an art that his teacher supposedly dropped due to being ineffective. Jesse Glover is another guy who surely didn't think Bruce's Wing Chun teachings were ineffective, and AFAIK, he had a background competing in Judo.

 

20 hours ago, Oneironaut said:

The whole “it’s not the art but the fighter” thing has been beaten to death. No two arts are created equal. You need to realize the errors of your argument when you try to put all martial arts on equal footing. It’s far more complicated than what you’re making it out to be. There’s many different martial arts yet so few of them work under fight situations. 

I'm not putting all martial arts on equal footing. And I'm also not arguing "it's not the art, but the fighter" even though that has some truth to it.  

 

What I'm saying in regards to using competitive fighting as a standard for "what works" is that first we have to remember an important truth: "you have to train for what you're actually going to do." In that light, comparing competitive and non competitive fighters proves nothing because they're not training for the same thing. 

 

Traditional Arts can't just jump into competitive fighting. They need to learn the ropes, just like arts like Boxing, Wrestling, Muay Thai, Judo, etc have done through decades if not centuries or more of refinement and even cross training in shared competitive settings. 

20 hours ago, Oneironaut said:

I guess we can call weight lifting, body weight exercises and cardio training a martial art since being in more athletic condition does give one a significant advantage in a confrontation against untrained adversaries. 

I'm arguing that martial arts, arts specifically trained for combat, that work in normative self defense situations for a person, are indeed useful forms of self defense because they work for what that person experiences. I didn't say "anything that improves your ability to protect yourself is a martial art." 

 

20 hours ago, Oneironaut said:

How is it a straw man view when we can find mountains of evidence to back up what I’m saying? 

It's a straw man view because you're posting a video to prove your point about kung fu masters in fights, and I'm asking for the most basic evidence to show that the Kung Fu guy in that vid is a kung fu master: evidence such as this supposed Master's Sifu(s), his school, and maybe his students. But you can't even show that he's even on the radar as a legitimate Sifu, let alone that he's a Kung Fu master. How is this not you simply putting forward a bad example that serves as a straw man?

 

20 hours ago, Oneironaut said:

Saying that those weren’t legitimate masters is a no true Scotsman fallacy. Why hasn’t there been any “legitimate kung fu masters” that descended from some mountain and taught these MMA guys a lesson? Is their kung fu too deadly for the streets? 

It's not a no true Scotsman fallacy because you have given no evidence that they are masters in any way, not in the slightest. You're also comparing categorically different things when comparing competitive fighters and non-competitive fighters. 

 

Why exactly would some Kung Fu guy in the mountains want to teach some MMA guy a lesson? 

 

Either way, to emphasize the lack of evidence with your example of a supposed Kung Fu master, here are Wing Chun guys in competitive settings, and I can give you plenty of evidence to show that they are indeed legitimate Kung Fu practitioners with legitimate lineages. 

 

These are videos of Alan Orr's students, who has trained in Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun under Robert Chu, who has trained under various Wing Chun Sifus from Yip Man lineages (Hawkins Cheung, Moy Yat) and other lineages. See the difference in evidence? In just one example I've already provided a Sifu name, a Sigong name, two fight video posted by the Sifu which includes the names of his students/fighters, and a link to the website of the school. Comparing our examples given and the differences between them, it seems clear that your example is indeed a strawman example, especially when you're insisting that the guy in your video is a Kung Fu master without a shred of evidence. 

 

There's also Qi La La, who has been getting more attention lately because you can really see how he's someone developing his Kung fu for modern competition, a relatively new process for many styles of Kung Fu. AFAIK, his Wing Chun is from the Wong Shun Leung lineage, though he also has trained Xingyi Liuhe under a Sifu Chen Shouhu and has also cross trained other Kung Fu styles. Here's a bunch of his fights along with some pretty critical breakdowns. But to close out with an interesting video, here's a sparring video with Qi La La that also includes Li Ming, another self proclaimed "tai chi master" who has challenged Xu Xiaodong (can't find his lineage or information either). I think this video clearly demonstrates the difference between Kung Fu guys who actually train to fight in some way and those who do not

 

More Li Ming, the "tai chi master" that challenged Xu Xiaodong. I'm sure you all can decide for yourself if this represents any form of mastery in fighting to you. 

 

Edited February 10, 2021 by Nam Sao

[Nam Sao]

edit: accidentally posted an older post I didn't finish

Edited February 10, 2021 by Nam Sao

[Vajra Fist]

Forgive the possible derail on this thread, but curious to know how many of the posters here continue to practice external martial arts in their 40s or later?

 

I'm at a point now in my late 30s where I'm starting to feel the effect of long term hard training (mostly knees, but also shoulders). I practiced shaolin for a couple of decades and also a bit of shotokan, but I've mostly quit external styles now. But by god, I miss it.

 

I'm a member of an excellent Facebook group called 'Old Farts Martial Arts', which is just tremendous, and also inspiring to see people in their 70s still busting out the kata. But so many of them have had hip or knee replacement surgery, torn rotator cuffs, etc. Wondering if the experienced voices here on this forum have also hung up their gloves or are they still gaman/'eating bitter'?

[thelerner]

5 hours ago, Vajra Fist said:

Forgive the possible derail on this thread, but curious to know how many of the posters here continue to practice external martial arts in their 40s or later?

 

I'm at a point now in my late 30s where I'm starting to feel the effect of long term hard training (mostly knees, but also shoulders). I practiced shaolin for a couple of decades and also a bit of shotokan, but I've mostly quit external styles now. But by god, I miss it.

 

I'm a member of an excellent Facebook group called 'Old Farts Martial Arts', which is just tremendous, and also inspiring to see people in their 70s still busting out the kata. But so many of them have had hip or knee replacement surgery, torn rotator cuffs, etc. Wondering if the experienced voices here on this forum have also hung up their gloves or are they still gaman/'eating bitter'?

In my late 30's after 17 years I hung up my gi.  At meetups I'd see two old war horses meeting and like you say, how's the knee?  How's the shoulder?  What's been ripped or torn lately?  And we were in relatively gentle Aikido.  The people I knew in competitive sports did even worse, some with Arthritis in their late 20s. 

 

I don't know if such is the rule or what percentage are still practicing in their 60s, 70s and above.  How many old grandmasters and simply non-quitters are out there.  30 some years ago I rose in rank w/ a fellow practitioner.   I need to look him up,  hear he's taken over the ever humble dojo.   

Edited February 16, 2021 by thelerner

[Nungali]

6 hours ago, Vajra Fist said:

Forgive the possible derail on this thread, but curious to know how many of the posters here continue to practice external martial arts in their 40s or later?

 

I'm at a point now in my late 30s where I'm starting to feel the effect of long term hard training (mostly knees, but also shoulders). I practiced shaolin for a couple of decades and also a bit of shotokan, but I've mostly quit external styles now. But by god, I miss it.

 

I'm a member of an excellent Facebook group called 'Old Farts Martial Arts', which is just tremendous, and also inspiring to see people in their 70s still busting out the kata. But so many of them have had hip or knee replacement surgery, torn rotator cuffs, etc. Wondering if the experienced voices here on this forum have also hung up their gloves or are they still gaman/'eating bitter'?

 

If I didnt refuse to have anything to do with facebook, I'd be in that club .

 

I did  mostly all 'hard style'  up to my  early 30s then went to aikido .   Then I went back to karate to do a rare Okinawan style.  After a while aikido started in the area, so I did that as well . It was awesome as the  the karate had lots of throws and  take  downs and I was the really the only one in the club that could roll and breakfall well , so the instructor had fun with me  ( and I was also able to slip in some stuff from 'outside' ) . 

 

Okinawan karate should be a mix of hard and soft .  This one was probably more on the soft side , but most of them do some hard stuff as well .

 

But all the time I was nursing an old back injury that started playing up . Also it effected wear on one hip .  I started to notice it  about 6 or 7 years ago  ( my late 50s ) .  Had to stop   Aikido eventually .   One time at training , ex KravMagra guy goes " In Israel, police hit you like this ! "   and came at me with a  baton  in an underarm upward swing .  I  deflected it with an outward lower leg block and  .....   crunk

( I have used this before against a solid kick , no probs  )  Oh gawd ! My hip !    Got xrays and doc said I had needed a hip replacement for some time .   A one year wait ,  light training .   Had the  op - it went well .

 

2 weeks later back at training,  at the back , with a walking stick .     So, in the early 60s I have had to give up  'diving and rolling' ,  grappling, twisting , ground work  (anything where I get  jerked around unpredictably ) , 'hard impact '  training .  I can still do most kata moves  ( find it hard to get up from ground or one knee on one side  -   I converted the double flying jump kick in Ciinto kata into left and right moving forward consecutive knee strikes  .... your hands are in that position anyway .   I dont really do Kusanku - 'The Young Man's Kata ' )  , bunkai   (like the others now,  with a change to a 'gentle lowering' or 'sit down' ) . Weapons I find are not as effected as much ,  a lot less locks and throws going on there .

 

But the clock ticks  .... forwards .  It won't be going backwards .

 

One day have to trade them all in for a walking stick .

 

 

 

[dwai]

I stopped external martial arts about 20 years ago, I progressed from Goju Ryu Karate to Aikido, and then exclusively focused on Taijiquan. I do play with my FMA brothers, but more in the sense of applying Taijiquan than anything else. 

[ilumairen]

17 hours ago, Vajra Fist said:

Forgive the possible derail on this thread, but curious to know how many of the posters here continue to practice external martial arts in their 40s or later?

 

I'm at a point now in my late 30s where I'm starting to feel the effect of long term hard training (mostly knees, but also shoulders). I practiced shaolin for a couple of decades and also a bit of shotokan, but I've mostly quit external styles now. But by god, I miss it.

 

I'm a member of an excellent Facebook group called 'Old Farts Martial Arts', which is just tremendous, and also inspiring to see people in their 70s still busting out the kata. But so many of them have had hip or knee replacement surgery, torn rotator cuffs, etc. Wondering if the experienced voices here on this forum have also hung up their gloves or are they still gaman/'eating bitter'?

Oh my stars, yes, to the bolded bit!
 

I broke a foot, and was told I couldn’t return to sparring until I could stand on the ball of my foot and hop without pain - which didn’t happen for years owing to a bone chip floating about in there. 
 

In all honesty however, I have a twenty one year old coworker I call “bro” lined up to get back into things with when this coronavirus thing passes.. just miss it too much..
 

oh, and I am presently 48

 

 

Edited February 16, 2021 by ilumairen

[thelerner]

Often the greatest danger we have to protect ourselves against is.. bum bum.. Ourselves.  

finding the sweet spot where we're pushed; learning and expanding without getting hurt.  

I guess we pay either way. Too little is as bad as too much.

 

I had a friend taking a boxing course.  I asked what it was like.  He said, Its like paying $60 to get beat up.  I asked if he had a class that night, he replied Oh yeah.