non-dualism & the need for practice

[林愛偉]

That is one way to see it, another way is that the teacher is simply teaching right practice and alerting the student to possible pitfalls which is especially important with Tantra. Note that the Vajrayana school accepts the teachings of the Mahayana and the Hinayana schools.

 

Another interesting point, which may help a few of the uninitiated, is that there are whole teachings explicitly expressed in Buddhist art. These abstract teachings often convey more than words and appeal to the higher mind thereby aiding the student in his awakening. Such methods of teaching have always existed and a classic example are the Oxherding Pictures: http://www.buddhanet.net/oxherd1.htm Of course once such images are conceptualised the meaning can become distorted so it's often better to meditate on the images and ignore any commentary. There are also some pretty explicit teachings in the imagery of Buddhist and Hindu sculpture for those that can see.

 

 

 

Brother,

What pitfalls...dual mind, false thinking, the not changing of one's own habits?

Holding back the teachings until "proper" initiation, is just exclusive Dharma, thus it is not the Buddha Dharma.

Also, the Buddha Dharma is free; costs nothing, and fitting for anyone. They may accept Mahayana and Theravada schools, but it still doesn't right all the wrongs. Any initiation prior to receiving the Dharma is just the bait and switch method. You don't need to pay for anything, or get charged up before any Dharma to receive the Dharma, at least the Buddha Dharma.

Safeguarding people from evils is just what Dharma Protectors do. There is no need for initiations and secret anything.

 

Buddha may have predicted Padmasambava and his methods, but that doesn't make it okay for monks/lamas to have sex with women and men in the name of the Dharma, charge money for the "Dharma", and reserve certain teachings when a student takes refuge with the teacher, and not the Triple Jewel.

 

The Buddha also never approved of statues, images of Buddhas to e made, though he predicted the arising of the Buddha -Semblance Age; Where statues and paintings of the Buddhas of the Ten Directions would become more popular than the actual Buddha Dharma cultivation.

 

I believe that Lama Dharma has developed such a name for itself as an authority on the Buddha Dharma.

The truth of the matter is, there is no authority on the Buddha Dharma except the Dharma itself.

 

Peace,

Lin

[Patrick Brown]

Edited May 22, 2008 by Patrick Brown

[Pero]

I'm sorry Lin, but you just don't know what you're talking about.

It's like if I started talking about how quantum physics is wrong since it doesn't correspond to my knowledge of Newtonian physics without ever actually studying quantum physics.

[林愛偉]

[Patrick Brown]

What are they getting initiated to?

 

And there are too many reports of Buddhist monks taking on sex partners, both men and women, and sadly children. Also in Beijing there was recently an instance where 3 Lamas talked a woman into receiving an initiation into certain practices regarding the "Secret School". The initiation required her to be naked, on a table surrounded by candles and have an orgy with the Lamas. She got aids from them. Later found out that there were man such cases like this in China, and in America within the "Secret School"..and I mean just plain secrecy, not the Proper Buddhist Tradition.

 

Stuff like this happens in Buddhism nowadays and in Tibetan Lama Dharma it has been happening for a long time. In South East Asia, Monks smoke... I received news from S.E> Asian where police raided a monks sleeping quarters and found loads of vaseline, sex toys, phone numbers of woman. They followed him from a night club where reports told the police there were monks coming to night clubs and consorting with women.

 

Also in S.E. Asia, there was a report on a monk who flippantly killed two passerbys, and then stabbed himself in the stomach about 20 times...recently.

I won't argue with you on this but I suspect most of the stories you've heard are propaganda and at the very least fabricated and at worst staged by the Chinese government as anybody can wear a monks robe or be dressed in one! China is frightened by Buddhism especially Tibetan Buddhism because it's so blatant to those that can see. The rest of the world fears China but the truth is the whole county is about to implode.

 

Most of your responses on this thread have been respectful and interesting but if you don't understand the nature of initiation then all your understanding adds up to nothing.

 

Sorry Lin but I've a feeling that somewhere along the line you've had your head fucked with.

[林愛偉]

I won't argue with you on this but I suspect most of the stories you've heard are propaganda and at the very least fabricated and at worst staged by the Chinese government as anybody can wear a monks robe or be dressed in one! China is frightened by Buddhism especially Tibetan Buddhism because it's so blatant to those that can see. The rest of the world fears China but the truth is the whole county is about to implode.

 

Most of your responses on this thread have been respectful and interesting but if you don't understand the nature of initiation then all your understanding adds up to nothing.

 

Sorry Lin but I've a feeling that somewhere along the line you've had your head fucked with.

 

 

I never received any thing from Chinese media, though I live in China. Here, the people themselves are like the people of other countries. They work, they have families, and they can do good and bad alike. Nothing is about to implode here. Actually, the people are more together than some other countries I have friends in.

 

Communism isn't propagated in China like people think it is. People aren't walking the streets holding Mao's red book, nor are they waving their fists in the air. Quite the contrary.

 

How China's government deals with the country, is actually mannerisms of Chinese Culture. How various emperors ruled the land...but not so much with a heavy fist as some past emperors. People treat their government here as they treated the government in the past, concerning themselves with the laws and thoughts of the gov., try to work together to maintain some type of stability.

 

In any manner, things are not what they were 40,30,20,10,5 yrs ago in China. They get better every year.

The west only see the "mistakes" and it is put up on t.v. everywhere for the world to see. They don't see the good that is done in Chinese society.

 

There is more propaganda about China outside of China, then there is about other countries inside of China. So far, the news I get in China about some things of America actually add up to the reports from Non-Chinese in different countries reporting on the movements of the U.S. Strange.

 

About initiations, all I am saying is that there does not need to be special things added to one's practice in order to attain the Buddha Dharma.

 

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

[Patrick Brown]

[林愛偉]

Edited May 22, 2008 by 林愛偉

[rex]

Its still not an excuse for how the Vajrayana school offers exclusive Dharmas. THat is not what the Buddha taught.

Shakymuni Buddha continued in the Nirvana Sutra:

 

This emanation of myself

Will be superior to other emanations in the three times.

 

So Padmasambhava, an emanation of Shakymuni, propagated the Vajrayana with its system of initiations. These were not really exclusive dharmas as they were, and still are, usually available on request.

 

Initiations are not absolutely necessary to attain Buddha Dharma but they do relate to wisdom and skillful means to introduce practitioners to particular qualities of the enlightened mind.

 

Peace to you also Lin.

[林愛偉]

Shakymuni Buddha continued in the Nirvana Sutra:

 

This emanation of myself

Will be superior to other emanations in the three times.

 

So Padmasambhava, an emanation of Shakymuni, propagated the Vajrayana with its system of initiations. These were not really exclusive dharmas as they were, and still are, usually available on request.

 

Initiations are not absolutely necessary to attain Buddha Dharma but they do relate to wisdom and skillful means to introduce practitioners to particular qualities of the enlightened mind.

 

Peace to you also Lin.

 

 

 

I'm not saying that what Padmasambava taught was not the Buddha Dharma. I am saying turning the teachings into an exclusive practice is deviant, as well as charging money for it, and emphasizing sexual practice.

 

It is like this in the Vajrayana tradition nowadays. Lamas selling practices, initiations, and saying that their ways are the fastest, best and most truest dharma. Websites are endless with this.

 

I personally sat with a "Cave Lama" and talked Buddhism with him for 2and a half hrs while his students waited for a sitting with him. After the convo., he offered me to take his lineage to America. First I had to take refuge with Him, not through him. I told him I took refuge with the triple jewel, and that is all that needs to be done. If this is Buddhism, then I have already entered the door. He was taken back, his disciple was angry.

 

The Lama, though a Lama, a monk, was/is very rich. He is a good person, but still holds the tradition of exclusivity. Not for me. Maybe for others.

 

All o four conversations revolve on one thing...how to recognize the proper from the deviant. if there is doubts of the Buddha Dharma in General, of it not being exactly what the Buddha taught, then don't bother with it.

 

Yet, on the other hand, if there is doubt, but diligence in wanting the Dharma, then seek the Dharma with out deluded views of greed, anger, ignorance, arrogance and no sexual desire. Then the proper will appear, and the deviant will disappear.

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

[Patrick Brown]

[林愛偉]

[Patrick Brown]

Have fun!... I am off to teach.

Good grief

 

These religious types!

[Pero]

I'm not saying that what Padmasambava taught was not the Buddha Dharma. I am saying turning the teachings into an exclusive practice is deviant, as well as charging money for it, and emphasizing sexual practice.

 

Oh really?

 

It is like this in the Vajrayana tradition nowadays. Lamas selling practices, initiations, and saying that their ways are the fastest, best and most truest dharma. Websites are endless with this.

 

I personally sat with a "Cave Lama" and talked Buddhism with him for 2and a half hrs while his students waited for a sitting with him. After the convo., he offered me to take his lineage to America. First I had to take refuge with Him, not through him. I told him I took refuge with the triple jewel, and that is all that needs to be done. If this is Buddhism, then I have already entered the door. He was taken back, his disciple was angry.

 

George Bush is dumb, ergo all Americans are dumb. Hitler, Mao, Stalin were mass murderes ergo all Germans, Chinese and Russians are mass murderers. Marion Jones used illegal drugs to enhance her abilities ergo all athletes use illegal drugs. Etc. etc. etc.

 

The Lama, though a Lama, a monk, was/is very rich.

 

Lamas are not necessarily monks.

[林愛偉]

Good grief

 

These religious types!

 

 

Not religious at all, and I was off to teach English.

 

How easy it is to become confused between religion and method. Saying something is Proper and deviant, doesn't make one's words religious at all. Not agreeing with specific mannerisms, doesn't make the one disagreeing a religious person. Besides, religious outlooks can be taken into all accounts of ones own personal views.

 

Its how we use them.

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

[mat black]

Oh yeah, so in terms of the 'notion' of non-duality and how one may practice, and whether it's necessary, here's something else.............

 

It seems that we can be easily moved by things and states, we react positvely or negatively depending on how we feel about them.

Really, we humans seem pretty reactive - we have wants & desires and we might seek greed, power, fame wealth, even control of others - the varieties are many.

We do it so often, we might not even be aware of it

We come in contact with pleasant things and have desire them, or to come in contact with unpleasant things and be averse to them. We form opinions and develop a fixation on particular views...............and on it goes.

- Then do we ever wonder why we might not have peace?

 

Buddha said:

"It is dificult to come in contact with things and have no thought of them..................It is difficult to see a state and not be moved by it........"

 

Knowing this also,

Sri Ramana Maharshi suggests:

 

"Don't fix your attention on these changing things of life death and phenomena. Do not even think of the actual act of perceiving them, but only of that which sees all these things. That which is responsible for it all (my italics)

"From now on, let your meditation not be on the act of seeing, nor on what you see, but immovably on that which sees".

Edited May 23, 2008 by mat black

[林愛偉]

Oh really?

George Bush is dumb, ergo all Americans are dumb. Hitler, Mao, Stalin were mass murderes ergo all Germans, Chinese and Russians are mass murderers. Marion Jones used illegal drugs to enhance her abilities ergo all athletes use illegal drugs. Etc. etc. etc.

Lamas are not necessarily monks.

 

 

haha what a way to turn words around friend.

 

Literally saying, there is a history of the Vajrayana practices being used for money and fame; using sexual desires and practices as a means to make a name for oneself, whether Lama as a monk or not. That just leaves the majority of those seeking proper teachings to sift through a lot more and risk being led to confusion. As it happened, and happens in America, Europe, S.E. Asia, China, Japan...regardless of the tradition of cultivation.

 

Not all Lamas are monks... alright, that I understand.

 

Not all Lamas are Buddhas, not all Lamas are reincarnated Bodhisattvas, and not all Lamas are practicing wholesome Dharma. Same with not all Zen/Chan teachers out there are actually realized beings. Not all Monks and Priests practice celibacy properly.

 

What I speak in reference to Tibetan Lama cultivation, stands with Mahayana and Theravada tradition; Meaning to not sell one's practices, not to claim authority over any Dharma, not to use sex as a method of attaining enlightenment; not to have sex with one's own students and claim it "initiates" them with the proper energy to attain enlightenment, and not to sell abilities as a way to enlightenment. I am not ruling out just one, but all institutionalized Buddhist organizations.

 

The 10 Major and 48 Minor Bodhisattva Precepts lay it all down.

 

The Buddha Dharma was free for all who can comprehend it, who had good roots to receive it.

 

:-)

 

Peace,

Lin

 

Oh yeah, so in terms of the 'notion' of non-duality and how one may practice, and whether it's necessary, here's something else.............

 

It seems that we can be easily moved by things and states, we react positvely or negatively depending on how we feel about them.

Really, we humans seem pretty reactive - we have wants & desires and we might seek greed, power, fame wealth, even control of others - the varieties are many.

We do it so often, we might not even be aware of it

We come in contact with pleasant things and have desire them, or to come in contact with unpleasant things and be averse to them. We form opinions and develop a fixation on particular views...............and on it goes.

- Then do we ever wonder why we might not have peace?

 

Buddha said:

"It is dificult to come in contact with things and have no thought of them..................It is difficult to see a state and not be moved by it........"

 

Knowing this also,

Sri Ramana Maharshi suggests:

 

"Don't fix your attention on these changing things of life death and phenomena. Do not even think of the actual act of perceiving them, but only of that which sees all these things. That which is responsible for it all (my italics)

"From now on, let your meditation not be on the act of seeing, nor on what you see, but immovably on that which sees".

 

 

This is excellent. "From now on, let your meditation not be on the act of seeing, nor on what you see, but immovably on that which sees"

 

This is simply looking at one's original nature, by taking apart the views we hold, and eventually dropping the act of dropping. It is about ending the dual state.

 

Buddha said, "It is difficult to come in contact with things and have no thought of them..................It is difficult to see a state and not be moved by it........"

 

When thoughts arise, do not follow them, but look at the one being moved. It is thus the mind.

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

[mat black]

Whoa, i've just been bombarded by flying tedies at the hand of 3 kids - that's tough..anyway ah hem

 

When thoughts arise, do not follow them, but look at the one being moved. It is thus the mind.

Beautiful Lin

 

Though this is essentially just a repeat of the above quote, it's only one more, then i'm done:

 

"Our nature is peace. We assume restlessness for ourselves and crave for peace.........Control your mind first and you will be happy wherever you are. One must attempt to get to the very bottom from which thought springs, and root out thought, desire and mind."

 

Real freedom, true peace.

Edited May 23, 2008 by mat black

[hagar]

Whoa, i've just been bombarded by flying tedies at the hand of 3 kids - that's tough..anyway ah hem

 

 

Beautiful Lin

 

Though this is essentially just a repeat of the above quote, it's only one more, then i'm done:

 

"Our nature is peace. We assume restlessness for ourselves and crave for peace.........Control your mind first and you will be happy wherever you are. One must attempt to get to the very bottom from which thought springs, and root out thought, desire and mind."

 

Mat and Lin

 

Thanks for inspiring words. Made my day.

 

h

[Pero]

haha what a way to turn words around friend.

 

I'm not sure how I turned them around.

 

Literally saying, there is a history of the Vajrayana practices being used for money and fame; using sexual desires and practices as a means to make a name for oneself, whether Lama as a monk or not.

 

I don't know about that, but I know there is a history of many people getting enlightened through Vajrayana to this day. And even if you what you say is true, that just simply means that those that did so did not practice Vajrayana correctly.

 

Not all Lamas are Buddhas, not all Lamas are reincarnated Bodhisattvas, and not all Lamas are practicing wholesome Dharma. Same with not all Zen/Chan teachers out there are actually realized beings. Not all Monks and Priests practice celibacy properly.

 

Of course.

 

What I speak in reference to Tibetan Lama cultivation, stands with Mahayana and Theravada tradition; Meaning to not sell one's practices, not to claim authority over any Dharma, not to use sex as a method of attaining enlightenment; not to have sex with one's own students and claim it "initiates" them with the proper energy to attain enlightenment, and not to sell abilities as a way to enlightenment.

 

Here you go again...

 

The funny thing is, that I don't really disagree much on a lot of the things you say. It's just that you constantly deride the Vajrayana when not knowing anything about it and just claim things that aren't true.

 

It seems that we can be easily moved by things and states, we react positvely or negatively depending on how we feel about them.

Really, we humans seem pretty reactive - we have wants & desires and we might seek greed, power, fame wealth, even control of others - the varieties are many.

We do it so often, we might not even be aware of it

We come in contact with pleasant things and have desire them, or to come in contact with unpleasant things and be averse to them. We form opinions and develop a fixation on particular views...............and on it goes.

- Then do we ever wonder why we might not have peace?

 

Yes, it's said it's like walking on two legs.

 

Anyway, this will be my last post in this topic. I'm sorry for derailing your topic Mat.

I hope you all have a nice weekend.

[mat black]

Anyway, this will be my last post in this topic. I'm sorry for derailing your topic Mat.

I hope you all have a nice weekend.

 

Hey, no worries Pero, it's not mine anyway it belongs to everyone or no one

 

Nice weekend to you too and everyone else in every world.

[rex]

Hi Lin,

 

It is reassuring to read that you dismiss all Buddhist institutions equally; though its so easy to misunderstand where you're coming from when you've levelled some quite specific, bordering on vitriolic attacks on Tibetan Buddhism which seem to go beyond mere doctrinal disagreement and in the process have sent out mixed and contradictory messages.

 

Claiming that you are just a cultivator who does not hold on to religious dogma, both Buddhist Sutra and Daoist, you've dismissed Vajrayana on doctrinal grounds because it is not 'Proper Dharma', and by 'Proper Dharma' you've meant the actual words of the Buddha as recorded in the Sutras. There are four Sutras where Buddha predicts Padmasambhva and his (Vajrayana) teachings. Of course the authenticity of these Sutras can be called into question but so too can the authenticity of any Mahayana Sutra including the ones you've cited in previous posts as authoritative testaments to Buddha's word and teaching.

 

You've also mentioned that texts are not viewed as dogma but are merely cultivation methods that have been put down. So too arguably are the Tantras which you dismiss because the methods are not based on Sutra and Mahayana doctrine.

 

As a cultivator who cultivates both Buddhism and Daoism and engages in dual cultivation, i.e. sexual practice, you say that Vajrayana is deviant because it emphasises sexual practice. This is simply not the case. Sexual practice, karma mudra, is just one advanced method in Anuyoga that is rarely taught and cannot be bought. Vajrayana practice also entails Kriya tantra, Upatantra, Yoga Tantra, Maha Yoga and Ati Yoga where sexual practice is not involved and purification and pure perception are emphasised.

 

Your Buddhist faith, cultivation and usually wise words are inspiring; your selective, contradictory and discriminatory view of another Buddhist vehicle is scurrilous.

 

As always, Peace and Blessings.

Edited May 23, 2008 by rex

[Patrick Brown]

Not religious at all, and I was off to teach English.

Thinking you're doing good no doubt or perhaps your excuse is that you have to make a living.

 

How easy it is to become confused between religion and method.

It all depends on the reasons doesn't it? I mean you could dance on one leg all your life because you just doing what you're told, which is slavery. Some people shut up and sit quietly doing nothing because they think something amazing will happen, which could be seen as faith therefore religion. Others of course are just deluding themselves that their practices will have an outcome which it might if you're trying to have spontaneous orgasms all day long!

 

Saying something is Proper and deviant, doesn't make one's words religious at all. Not agreeing with specific mannerisms, doesn't make the one disagreeing a religious person.

No but you're wallowing in opinions, often unfounded and tenuous, and constantly suggesting that Tibetan Buddhism is deviant without any evidence. You claim to follow the true Buddha Dharma but in truth you believe in the words of books just like most religious people i.e. Dogma!

 

Further if you are of the school of thought that sees Buddhism as a philosophy then I might suggest that you haven't got a clue as to what you're talking about. Philosophy equips people with tools to resolve paradoxes it doesn't advocate practice. Methods and practices are simply tools propagated by those that seek control.

 

Besides, religious outlooks can be taken into all accounts of ones own personal views.

Sorry but that sound like semantic rubbish. You either believe the Buddha was enlightened or you don't. If you believe then you're religious if you know then you understand what he was up to.

 

Its how we use them.

What like saying prays before going into battle? What shit! Hmm I wonder how many slaves died building the Chines wall? Now fucking pray and do as you're told or get out of the monastery!

 

What I speak in reference to Tibetan Lama cultivation, stands with Mahayana and Theravada tradition; Meaning to not sell one's practices, not to claim authority over any Dharma, not to use sex as a method of attaining enlightenment; not to have sex with one's own students and claim it "initiates" them with the proper energy to attain enlightenment, and not to sell abilities as a way to enlightenment. I am not ruling out just one, but all institutionalized Buddhist organizations.

Yes we all understand that the Dharma is free but China is where the bastardisation of Tai Chi/Kung Fu came from turning gentle harmony into violent death! We also understand where all this bollox about semen retention and excessive sex with multiple female partners came from, excuse the pun, which the esoteric student of course understands as vampireism. Those things are facts unlike the anti Tibetan Buddhist propaganda you keep spouting such as:

 

And there are too many reports of Buddhist monks taking on sex partners, both men and women, and sadly children. Also in Beijing there was recently an instance where 3 Lamas talked a woman into receiving an initiation into certain practices regarding the "Secret School". The initiation required her to be naked, on a table surrounded by candles and have an orgy with the Lamas. She got aids from them. Later found out that there were man such cases like this in China, and in America within the "Secret School"..and I mean just plain secrecy, not the Proper Buddhist Tradition.

 

Stuff like this happens in Buddhism nowadays and in Tibetan Lama Dharma it has been happening for a long time. In South East Asia, Monks smoke... I received news from S.E> Asian where police raided a monks sleeping quarters and found loads of vaseline, sex toys, phone numbers of woman. They followed him from a night club where reports told the police there were monks coming to night clubs and consorting with women.

 

Also in S.E. Asia, there was a report on a monk who flippantly killed two passerbys, and then stabbed himself in the stomach about 20 times...recently.

Of course I'm sure you believe such stories because you obviously have no idea what Tibetan Buddhism is about. In fact I very much doubt you have any idea of what any form of Buddhism is about. Perhaps you should learn to think correctly before you stop thinking all together.

 

Anyway I've no doubt you'll keep ignoring the truth while you hide in your pretentious facile delusion of what reality is, so I'm out of here.

[gendao]

Yes we all understand that the Dharma is free but China is where the bastardisation of Tai Chi/Kung Fu came from turning gentle harmony into violent death! We also understand where all this bollox about semen retention and excessive sex with multiple female partners came from, excuse the pun, which the esoteric student of course understands as vampireism.

Uh, how did China turn Taijiquan/gong fu into violent death?

 

Have you ever been to China?

 

Also, I'm not sure SKF is bollocks...that may be a premature conclusion. There's plenty of threads on it here, and it's been subject to a lot of debate.

 

But logically, if the man jizzes (like in "normal" sex) - wouldn't that be female vampirism of his Yang jing? So, wouldn't that make most women sexual vampires by default? And if so, what would be wrong with neutralizing that?

 

If proper dual-cultivation is 2-way and not 1-way vampirism - wouldn't that be a more balanced form of sex? (Not to say you even have to have physical sex to dual-cultivate.)

Edited May 23, 2008 by vortex

[Patrick Brown]