non-dualism & the need for practice

[mat black]

it is interesting to be told and exposed to people who say. You are already enlightened that is your nature, there was never a moment when you were not enlightened, your Buddha nature is always. You don't need to do anything, no practice, no meditation.

Yes, intellectually i understand this truth, and maybe even through direct experience, glimpses of indescribable depth of peace, might have known this to be true.

But to abide unwaveringly in this constant and transcendant realisation is another thing.

 

In other words, the need to practice/cultivate remains, no matter how well our 'understanding' may be.

Master Xuan Hua said that Buddhahood is our fundamental nature, but, he also warned that to claim to be a Buddha without be free from every affliction is the height of stupidity.

 

Sri Ramana Maharshi was aware of the trap of mere intellectual acceptance of enlightenement and potential for subsequent ego claiming that it did not need to practice. So he said this on the matter:

 

" There is a state beyond effort and effortlessness. Until it is realised, efort is necessary."

"Effortlessness and choisless awareness is our real nature. But one cannot reach it withouteffort, the deliberate effort of meditation."

Some one asked 'how long should one practice'?

Ramana Maharshi "Until the mind attains effortlessly it's natural state of freedom from concepts, that is, till the sense of 'I' and 'mine' exist no longer"

 

....................up to that point, effort is necessary, untill all vassanas (latent tendencies) are rooted out.

 

Ultimately, he says, "As all are perceived to the mind through the five senses, the world is nothing but the mind....the world is perceived only through conciousness. That source where both these rise and disappear, and which itself neither appears nor disappears, is the perfct reality"

_/\_

[hagar]

Agree.

 

From my own experience, this kind of intellectual "knowing" your true nature is like sitting in a snowstorm knowing that if you only lit a fire, you'd be saved.

 

The real effort is never the knowing, but the doing. Unfortunately.

 

Problem is, we never know how long it will take to light the fire.

 

h

[mat black]

Hagar:

The real effort is never the knowing, but the doing. Unfortunately.

Problem is, we never know how long it will take to light the fire

 

Yeah Hagar i think i know what you mean. At times, i have lacked motivated to continue for that reason thinking 'how long will this take?'

It can seem so far away at times, as if our effort is meaningless and futile and it's probably a very common to every cultivator to think this way..............

 

If I may quote Sri Ramana Maharshi again:

Perseverance alone counts, practice is necessary. Keep at your practice. One is prone to abandon effort under the mistaken impression that God's grace is absent. But one should not slaken, for God's grace is bound to operate at the ripe time.

Grace is the Self. All that is required is to know it's existence. If you want to know the sun, you must turn your eyes in the direction and look at it. Similarly, grace (the Self/Mind) is only to be found by efort, althought it is here and now"

 

On the point of directing ones attention on practice to find the source, Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj said this:

"You must be possessed by this idea of finding out what this "I-am-ness" is, just as you would not rest until you found the source of a smell emanating from some place. For example, if a foul smell emanates you will have to go to that source; and when you discover that it is the decomposed body of a rat, you will have to dispose of that body in order to get rid of the stink. Similarly, if a nice fragrance wafts in your direction, you would like to locate the flower. You must go to the source of this "I-am-ness" fragrance, and find out its "how and why."

[松永道]

it is interesting to be told and exposed to people who say. You are already enlightened that is your nature, there was never a moment when you were not enlightened, your Buddha nature is always. You don't need to do anything, no practice, no meditation.

 

I hear this one from unenlightened people all the time!

[Procurator]

I hear this one from unenlightened people all the time!

 

yeah is not it convenient? someone sits on the couch, spouting new age drivel with his body ravaged by life of uncouth lazines, too feeble to even sit straight and ppl still listen to him.

[Ian]

it is interesting to be told and exposed to people who say. You are already enlightened that is your nature, there was never a moment when you were not enlightened, your Buddha nature is always. You don't need to do anything, no practice, no meditation.

Yes, intellectually i understand this truth, and maybe even through direct experience, glimpses of indescribable depth of peace, might have known this to be true.

But to abide unwaveringly in this constant and transcendant realisation is another thing.

 

In other words, the need to practice/cultivate remains, no matter how well our 'understanding' may be.

Master Xuan Hua said that Buddhahood is our fundamental nature, but, he also warned that to claim to be a Buddha without be free from every affliction is the height of stupidity.

 

I read a really nice thing once in a Zen book by someone called Ha Hui. I can't remember the exact words, but he said that the process of waiting for grace was an active one. He used the analogy of boiling water: that you never knew when it would leap to 100 degrees, but that its chances were way better if you kept it bubbling at 99.

 

Thank you for this post. As you often do, a nice straightforward summary of a potentially complex topic.

[gendao]

Actually, you cannot become enlightened because in doing so, you realize that there is no "you."

 

[mat black]

I read a really nice thing once in a Zen book by someone called Ha Hui. I can't remember the exact words, but he said that the process of waiting for grace was an active one. He used the analogy of boiling water: that you never knew when it would leap to 100 degrees, but that its chances were way better if you kept it bubbling at 99.

Thank you for this post. As you often do, a nice straightforward summary of a potentially complex topic.

 

Oh mate, great metaphore Ian, thanks. That's the best i've heard.

keep on bubbling @ 99............

Edited April 2, 2008 by mat black

[doc benway]

Agree.

 

From my own experience, this kind of intellectual "knowing" your true nature is like sitting in a snowstorm knowing that if you only lit a fire, you'd be saved.

 

The real effort is never the knowing, but the doing. Unfortunately.

 

Problem is, we never know how long it will take to light the fire.

 

h

If I may, Hagar, I'd like to borrow your analogy.

The enlightened mind is like the clear, pure sky which envelopes everything and is always already there.

The everyday mind is like the snowstorm - the clear sky is already there, just obscured by the endless thoughts - many of which are looking for the clear sky. But the thoughts can never clear the sky because they are what's obscuring it in the first place! Enlightenment is always already there. It's not that you don't have to do anything to get there. It's that YOU can't do anything to get there because it's the you and the doing that are the problem. So it's not that YOU are already enlightened, it's the YOU that is the illusion. Enlightenment is the background but YOU have to become quiet enough to abide in it, perhaps....

Sorry if that doesn't make any sense...

Excellent thread and post Mat (as always!)

[mat black]

Xuan Hua said: "Where do living beings come from? They come from the Buddha nature."

 

But it's obvious that most of us are not aware of this truth through our own direct realisation. Karma has obscured this understanding.

The accumulation and unconcious clinging to 'fog' - which is the habitual and unconcious identification with views, opininions, desires, atattchments, aversions and impulses.

Chuang Tzu says "Tao is obscured when men understand only one of a pair of opposites, or concentrate only on a partial aspect of being."

This obscured view becomes the 'me' that we think we are. And then, acting upon this distorted view "the more we fall, the more we tend to fall"

So, the Hua Hu Ching says "Avoid following impulses and pursuing ambitions which destroy the wholness of your mind and seperate you from the Integral Way. In order to eliminate negative influences, ignore them."

In other words, don't identify with them. - ignore the 'fog' and it is no longer empowered and the sun can then shine. Mediatation is an invitation to the sun.

Master Xuan Hua says "when one breaks through ignorance, the Drahma nature manifests"

 

Another way of going about the same thing is to restore attention to virtue.

-Reverence for all life

-Natural sincerity

-Gentleness, kindness

-Supportiveness which is service without expectation of reward.

The Hua Hu Ching says: "These are not an external dogma, they are your original nature"

 

Droping all atattchments to this and that, returning to natural virtue, letting it manifest, we come to realise that which 'neither comes nor goes'

[hagar]

Great thread!

 

Words to describe this is mostly misleading, and I think analogies are probably the closest one can get to hint at something in the proximity of what we're trying to discuss.

 

I mentioned this in the "Things I want to control" thread, but will repeat:

 

True practice happens when you are being meditated, or when you are disconnected from intention.

Yet, you need intention, will, even desire to get to that point. Most difficult is the realization that there is nothing to "get out" of practice. Nothing to "gain". There is actually no better place. No salvation, and no absence of suffering. The only thing that is different is that through correct practice, you gain a softness, and vunerability. This softness comes from experiencing that the suffering of wanting, doubt, confusion, hope, that you go through is does not concern you. It's just there, and your True Nature is just a witness.

 

Sometimes, going to work, in a hurry, I get this moments when something in me just watches my life, my thoughts, my experience. Like the life I lead is just playing itself out before my eyes. Like an alien presence that is at the core of me is just looking out through my eyes.

 

Although this is not enlightenment, since children and mad people, or even people in great distress have this experience all the time, we lose sight of this through our habituation and identification with or ego, or "selves". We decay into identifying totally with "ME", and most practitioners of meditation or qigong, or yoga think that they do not have to detatch from this "ME" to gain freedom. Actually most people do not want freedom, they want certainty. Freedom is the opposite of certainty, as the term "Enlightenment" actually point to this opening, or uncertainty, where things are just coming into being, coming real.

 

But again, since I definately have not gained enlightenment, I may be wrong...

 

h

[林愛偉]

What a wonderful thread indeed!

[doc benway]

Actually most people do not want freedom, they want certainty. Freedom is the opposite of certainty, as the term "Enlightenment" actually point to this opening, or uncertainty, where things are just coming into being, coming real.

Nice

[thelerner]

Mat Blacks post- "So, the Hua Hu Ching says "Avoid following impulses and pursuing ambitions which destroy the wholness of your mind and seperate you from the Integral Way. In order to eliminate negative influences, ignore them."

In other words, don't identify with them. - ignore the 'fog' and it is no longer empowered and the sun can then shine. Mediatation is an invitation to the sun.

Master Xuan Hua says "when one breaks through ignorance, the Drahma nature manifests"

 

Another way of going about the same thing is to restore attention to virtue.

-Reverence for all life

-Natural sincerity

-Gentleness, kindness

-Supportiveness which is service without expectation of reward.

The Hua Hu Ching says: "These are not an external dogma, they are your original nature"

 

-"

 

is so poignant. It reminds me of all the other great teachings written here that flow down the discussion page and never read again. I've decided I need a way to capture my favorites. I've created a Google Doc of Best of Taobums and I've started cutting and pasting. Starting with Mats quote.

 

Michael

[doc benway]

 

So, the Hua Hu Ching says "Avoid following impulses and pursuing ambitions which destroy the wholness of your mind and seperate you from the Integral Way. In order to eliminate negative influences, ignore them."

In other words, don't identify with them. - ignore the 'fog' and it is no longer empowered and the sun can then shine. Mediatation is an invitation to the sun.

I also think it is important to remember that not only does attachment or identification give strength to negative impulses but resistance does as well. It is extremely important to be cautious regarding an admonition of "ignoring" so as not to fall into a trap of resistence. Nothing gives negative thoughts more power than an active attempt at resisting or ignoring. I find that simple recognition of the what the negative impulse is from a perspective of how I've created it as a part of my story, my reality, is enough. Leaning into the negativity and opening up to it sometimes can be effective when ignoring isn't.

 

Here's a trivial example I got from a great book -

Think of an elephant - it's color, smell, size, whatever.... for a few seconds - get it in your mind

 

 

OK

 

 

 

Now -

Try not to think of an elephant for the next 5 minutes (or even 1 minute) and see what happens...

[mat black]

Xuesheng

It is extremely important to be cautious regarding an admonition of "ignoring" so as not to fall into a trap of resistence. Nothing gives negative thoughts more power than an active attempt at resisting or ignoring.

Yes. Maybe instead of ignoring, we could consider the term 'forebearance' ie to remain unmoved, unprovoked through any circumstance.

The Jade emporer says: "Forbearance is a treasure of your body, be careful not to compete against others. When any demons come, I just defeat them by sitting with forbearance. Not competing against the demons, the comers will of themselves turn their weapons back. Hurting others is hurting yourself, however, I have actually gained the peace and tranquility by not hurting anyone. By forbearance, all Real Persons had achieved their supremeness."

Hagar

This softness comes from experiencing that the suffering of wanting, doubt, confusion, hope, that you go through is does not concern you.

Inspiring. And isn't it the case that the heart is strongest when it is at it's softest?

True practice happens when you are being meditated, or when you are disconnected from intention.

Yet, you need intention, will, even desire to get to that point.

Yes.

Most difficult is the realization that there is nothing to "get out" of practice. Nothing to "gain".

It's seems to be the greatest paradox, effort and intention without any investment in gain. But to really look into it and inquire within reveales that there is nothing to actually gain. Only proper understanding.

Edited April 4, 2008 by mat black

[seadog]

This is a great thread I have learned alot in regards to what has been written here.

All I would like to add is from my personnel of exprience of being thankfull.

When you pause for a moment through out the day and night there are so many things to be thankful for.

Really simple things like the water we use each day

the food we eat

the light of the sun

so on so many thinks,

[SiliconValley]

And isn't it the case that the heart is strongest when it is at it's softest?

 

It's seems to be the greatest paradox, effort and intention without any investment in gain. But to really look into it and inquire within reveals that there is nothing to actually gain. Only the understanding of what always IS

 

Awesome!! Wish you can write as often as possible ....

[hagar]

Xuan Hua said: "Where do living beings come from? They come from the Buddha nature."

 

But it's obvious that most of us are not aware of this truth through our own direct realisation. Karma has obscured this understanding.

The accumulation and unconcious clinging to 'fog' - which is the habitual and unconcious identification with views, opininions, desires, atattchments, aversions and impulses.

Chuang Tzu says "Tao is obscured when men understand only one of a pair of opposites, or concentrate only on a partial aspect of being."

This obscured view becomes the 'me' that we think we are. And then, acting upon this distorted view "the more we fall, the more we tend to fall"

So, the Hua Hu Ching says "Avoid following impulses and pursuing ambitions which destroy the wholness of your mind and seperate you from the Integral Way. In order to eliminate negative influences, ignore them."

In other words, don't identify with them. - ignore the 'fog' and it is no longer empowered and the sun can then shine. Mediatation is an invitation to the sun.

Master Xuan Hua says "when one breaks through ignorance, the Drahma nature manifests"

 

Another way of going about the same thing is to restore attention to virtue.

-Reverence for all life

-Natural sincerity

-Gentleness, kindness

-Supportiveness which is service without expectation of reward.

The Hua Hu Ching says: "These are not an external dogma, they are your original nature"

 

Droping all atattchments to this and that, returning to natural virtue, letting it manifest, we come to realise that which 'neither comes nor goes'

 

I didn't see this post right before I wrote mine, but it is spot on.

 

Master Hua's words makes me think of what essentially we are "practicing" in ourselves.

If we look beyond the level of energy, we are recongnizing our need to return. Return to our innate nature, which is naturally "Te". But this does not mean being morally good, powerful, or superior.

 

I went through a phase were I got attached to my youth, wanting to preserve it, wanting more power, gaining control, strength, being invunerable, through all these different qigong gymnastics. My practice was this smorgasboard of postures, vizualisations, and meditations that I thought would, if I stuck to them, render me the grace of control, and invunerability.

 

But ironically, what I wanted out of my practice often brought me into unknown territory. I discovered my confusion, my sorrows, cynicism, hedonism, attachment to comfort, self-indulgence, and later on pride, habitual rejection pain, greed, ingorance of my limited empathy etc. etc.

 

The more I practices, more and more of these unknown, or neglected sides of my own psyche emerged.

It made me drop my practice for a while, dissapointed, and in doubt of the quality of the teachings, and feeling like I'd been wasting my time.

 

Finally, during a retreat I lost everything. (I think I wrote about this before, but bear over with me) I meditated on a horsewhisp that my master hung on a wall, and I ended up lying on the floor feeling shameful, crying, and totally drained of energy.

When I finally got up, I felt a peace, and an eerie sense of helplessness, vunerability and openess that forced me to just sit there. During the break, I got up, going to lunch, and felt like everything "was the same". Difficult to put into words, but I saw everyone I met, strangers on the street as my most intimate friend. No separation. Finally sitting down to eat,I'd forgotten how to use a knife and fork. Going out, I felt this immense sadness and joy at the same time, this intense sensitivity, and overwhelming feeling of presence. It was almost like being on acid.

 

Without getting into sensationalism, the experience made me realize how the path to realizing our True Nature is a bath of dropping, and accepting defeat. When you finally accept defeat, the universe will curl itself up on your lap like a purring cat and reveal some of it's secrets. When that happens, just like Mat mentioned, natural virtues like kindness, reverence, empathy, viewing others as you, gentleness naturally emerge, just like holding a baby, you naturally soften. No effort.

 

Too much words, but wanting to share this for what it's worth.

 

h

[mat black]

I never intend to write so much as i have lately,

And, then this post from Hagar touched me deep.

 

Hagar:

wanting to share this for what it's worth.

Reading your account gave me goosebumps.......awesome & thanks for sharing

 

 

I discovered my confusion, my sorrows, cynicism, hedonism, attachment to comfort, self-indulgence, and later on pride, habitual rejection pain, greed, ingorance of my limited empathy etc. etc. ...................When I finally got up, I felt a peace just like holding a baby, you naturally soften. No effort.

Gold.

 

 

Your account reminds me very much of this quote by Nisargadatta

"Do you know what I mean by peace?" he asked. "When you put a donut

in boiling water, a lot of bubbles will come out until all of the

moisture in the donut is gone. It also makes a lot of noise, doesn't

it? Finally, all is silent and the donut is ready. The silent

condition of mind which comes about through a life of meditation is

called peace. Meditation is like boiling the oil. It will make

everything in the mind come out. Only then will peace be achieved."

When you demand nothing of the world, nor of God, when you want nothing,

seek nothing, expect nothing, then the Supreme State will come to you

uninvited and unexpected.

 

When effort reaches a certain point, the futility of wanting becomes apparent. Then it can happen that when we 'want nothing' the opening occurs. Then if we can arrive at the point where all our wants are gone........

Sri Ramana Maharshi says: "No want is the greatest bliss"

Edited April 4, 2008 by mat black

[rex]

Quality thread! This quote from Arya Maitreya's Uttatatantra Shastra fits quite nicely:

 

If an inexhaustable treasure were burried

in the ground beneath a poor man's house,

the man would not know of it, the treasure

would not speak and tell him "I am here!"

 

Likewise a precious treasure is contained in each being's mind. This

is its true state,

which is free from defilement. Nothing is to be added and

nothing to be removed.

Nevertheless, since they do not realize this, sentient beings

continuously undergo the manifold sufferings of deprivation.

[freeform]

.

Edited December 18, 2019 by freeform

[.broken.]

Like all those who posted, I too have enjoyed this thread thoroughly.

 

At freeform's invitation to respond with whatever comes up I thought it only right to contribute

 

I like your model of choices and paradoxes. You described attachment to a choice as imprisonment and paradoxes as a relative freedom.

 

There are many models that are bounded around the idea of enlightenment...

 

Ignorance and wholeness/oneness

Conceptual mind and Buddha nature

Habitual thinking and awareness/mindfullness

Intellect and being

 

... to name a few. Is one more valid than another? of course not. It's just what we experience during our practices we try to relate to others. The only way we can do this is to relate it to them with our own understanding. How do we relate things to others? We need to use our concepts, our ideas (which are different to our experience), and try to make other's understand what we have gained in wisdom.

 

I have said this in a previous thread, but language and it's interpretation in differing circumstances in space/time (includes culture, upbringing etc.) bring about different understandings of the same concepts... and, perhaps more fundamentally: words. Interpretation is individual.

 

Peace,

James

[林愛偉]

This thread is so very calm and warming. Wonderful...Wonderful.

 

Even though our true nature is ever present, cultivation is still a mandatory process;

To rid oneself of their myriad attachments,, and thus realize "real" freedom instead of

manufactured freedom through states of afflicted responses.

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

[freeform]

The only way we can do this is to relate it to them with our own understanding. How do we relate things to others? We need to use our concepts, our ideas (which are different to our experience), and try to make other's understand what we have gained in wisdom.

 

Thanks James.

 

Sometimes we relate things to our current understanding (relating it to things that are around in our prison) and sometimes we relate with the infinite aspect of us.

 

Of course I do both. But when I manage to relate from the infinite, it nourishes me and it nourishes the people around me. The thing about relating from the infinite is that you just don't know what you're gonna do or say next...

 

relating from our finite to another's finite is like shouting from your prison cell to another's prison cell across the prison yard... only a little bit gets heard and whatever does get through is all about life in your prison cell. Even with this extreme limitation, sometimes what is heard is profound and nourishing, so can you imagine what it's like to communicate from our infinite to another's infinite!?

 

And about the relative freedom - it's not so much freedom of choice, but freedom from choice.

 

You know how children one day love carrots and the next day hate carrots!? That's ok - we don't have to be consistent.

 

Adam chose to eat the apple!