What is lust

[ilumairen]

4 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

 

Desire is still desire regardless of degree.

And desire, in its various forms, is the impetus which enables the continuation of life..

[Maddie]

17 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

So far we´ve said that lust is base, unbridled, and rooted in the ego.  It´s all true.  Furthermore,  lusty urges often get in the way of spiritual aspirations. I think it´s important to think about lust and relate to it in a way that´s consonant with our values and supportive of our goals.  For this reason, I´d be cautious about the forgoing descriptors of lust -- even if they´re accurate. The downside to saying that lust is base and unbridled and egoic is that many of us have negative associations with those words: they´re indication of badness, if not outright evil.  This is a trap.  What we don´t want to do is build up a heavy negative charge around the topic of lust.  We don´t want to orient ourselves so that we´re spending a lot (or even a little) of our energy trying to get away from lust.  Why?  Because to do so would enslave us to the very thing we´re attempting to flee.  

 

While two different topic, few things seem to bring up guilt and judgment like lust related topics do. I would say there is lust, and stuff like this is the aversion to lust. Having a feeling and then in the same mind having an aversion to the same feeling makes things rather complicated.

[Maddie]

1 minute ago, ilumairen said:

And desire, in its various forms, is the impetus which enables the continuation of life..

 

This is correct, but that statement was more of an issue of defining terms than a judgment.

[dwai]

17 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

This “need to possess” is the overly yang aspect of lust, lacking in it’s complimentary yin component imo..

 

You fellows (in the posts I’ve read - having only gotten so far before my fingers started itching to type), seem to be missing something deeper, “lust” is one of the powers of connection and creation.

Maybe a problem of definition on my part. I always considered lust to be the out-of-control aspect of that desire for connection and creation. The creation aspect is a biological/evolutionary imperative. When only driven by that, the frequency of "desire" will progressively wane as people age (from every day in one's prime to once every other week or month even as they age). The connection aspect usually starts with the physical act and then blossoms into a deeper friendship and companionship in a healthy relationship. 

Quote

 

And honestly this woman is just in a mood while contemplating the many ways women have been bridled and domesticated and taught to behave in order to avoid causing the arising of the “need to possess” variety of lust so many seem to focus on.

I've seen this desire to possess also very much active in women as well. Only that sometimes it manifests as something else (and sometimes not). 

Edited January 25, 2021 by dwai

[C T]

18 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

 

Desire is still desire regardless of degree.

 

To me, desire and lust are not the same. 

Desire has a healthy, even necessary, side to it. 

[Maddie]

1 minute ago, dwai said:

Maybe a problem of definition on my part. I always considered lust to be the out-of-control aspect of that desire for connection and creation.

 

One thing I've noticed so far is what the terms seem to mean to various people. It seems that to some the word "lust" means when sexual passions are at their highest.

   I on the other hand though meditation have come to see that lust can be and often is very insidious and subtle.

 

3 minutes ago, dwai said:

I've seen this desire to possess also very much active in women as well. Only that sometimes it manifests as something else (and sometimes not). 

 

Both men and women seek to control. I think the yin/yang issue isn't control vs non-control, but merely the means used to control.

[freeform]

I agree with @ilumairen and @liminal_luke

 

There's nothing wrong with lust or craving in itself.

 

Yes people will do crazy things sometimes to get what they crave, or over attach to the addictive feeling that craving brings - but most don't!

 

It's true that lust gets in the way of spiritual practice but so does agitation, anxiety, boredom and any number of other things.

 

That doesn't mean it's bad or good - it's just one aspect of life.

[Maddie]

2 minutes ago, C T said:

 

To me, desire and lust are not the same. 

Desire has a healthy, even necessary, side to it. 

 

I see.

 

In my understanding lust is a type of desire.

 

I see desire as the root cause according to the second noble truth. Then desire manifests itself based upon the various conditioning of the individual mind.

 

As far as healthy vs unhealthy go this depends on ones point of view. For the perpetuation of the species lust is very effective (of course that begs the question of why does the species need to be perpetuated but this gets more into the attachment to being which is another issue in the 12 links). But in regards to healthy in terms of Nirvana (ultimate peace of mind and contentment) then lust is a detrimental obstacle.

[Maddie]

2 minutes ago, freeform said:

I agree with @ilumairen and @liminal_luke

 

There's nothing wrong with lust or craving in itself.

 

Yes people will do crazy things sometimes to get what they crave, or over attach to the addictive feeling that craving brings - but most don't!

 

It's true that lust gets in the way of spiritual practice but so does agitation, anxiety, boredom and any number of other things.

 

That doesn't mean it's bad or good - it's just one aspect of life.

 

Yes I was expecting the issue of judgment (right or wrong, good or bad) to come up relatively soon.

 

These are counter productive terms in my opinion. I prefer skillful or unskillful. I think lust being viewed in the context of right or wrong though is a western guilt based paradigm, and as opposed to belonging to desire, relates more to the inverse of desire which is aversion (the other of the three poisons)

 

 

[C T]

2 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

 

I see.

 

In my understanding lust is a type of desire.

 

I see desire as the root cause according to the second noble truth. Then desire manifests itself based upon the various conditioning of the individual mind.

 

As far as healthy vs unhealthy go this depends on ones point of view. For the perpetuation of the species lust is very effective (of course that begs the question of why does the species need to be perpetuated but this gets more into the attachment to being which is another issue in the 12 links). But in regards to healthy in terms of Nirvana (ultimate peace of mind and contentment) then lust is a detrimental obstacle.

 

Yeah, we seem to regard the expressions of it differently. 

To my mind, and experience, lust is a neurotic form of desire. 

While the energetic manifestations may have similar footprints, the end result of each could be vastly different. 

[Maddie]

Just now, C T said:

 

Yeah, we seem to regard the expressions of it differently. 

To my mind, and experience, lust is a neurotic form of desire. 

While the energetic manifestations may have similar footprints, the end result of each could be vastly different. 

 

Sometimes the complication in communication is finding out what each person means by the words they use.

[liminal_luke]

33 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

And honestly this woman is just in a mood while contemplating the many ways women have been bridled and domesticated and taught to behave in order to avoid causing the arising of the “need to possess” variety of lust so many seem to focus on.

 

ilumairen,

 

Over the years, I´ve had occasion to read a great many of your posts and the word "bridled" has never come to mind.  That, I think, is a good thing.

Edited January 25, 2021 by liminal_luke

[freeform]

7 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

I think lust being viewed in the context of right or wrong though is a western guilt based paradigm

 

It's like when parents say "eat your broccoli or your teeth will fall out"... or "stop pulling that face or it'll stay like that forever"...

 

Which - if you think about it are pretty morose!

 

And that's how religions seemed to go about teaching their precepts to us uneducated 'peasants'.

 

7 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

I prefer skillful or unskillful

 

So do I

 

Much more nuanced - and empowering.

Edited January 25, 2021 by freeform

[Maddie]

3 minutes ago, C T said:

 

Yeah, we seem to regard the expressions of it differently. 

To my mind, and experience, lust is a neurotic form of desire. 

While the energetic manifestations may have similar footprints, the end result of each could be vastly different. 

 

I think I used to view lust more like what you are stating. I think what changed my interpretation of lust was over the years of meditation I began to see how subtle it could be. This was a big surprise to me.

[Maddie]

15 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

It's like when parents say "eat your broccoli or your teeth will fall out"... or "stop pulling that face or it'll stay like that forever"...

 

Which - if you think about it are pretty morose!

 

And that's how religions seemed to go about teaching their precepts to us uneducated 'peasants'.

 

 

So do I

 

Much more nuanced - and empowering.

 

I'm not exactly sure how in the west we became so neurotic about lust and sex but we did.

 

Edited January 25, 2021 by dmattwads

[Maddie]

The important thing I think when talking about lust is to make a careful effort to distinguish lust from aversion to lust. This can also be very subtle.

[ilumairen]

43 minutes ago, dwai said:

Maybe a problem of definition on my part. I always considered lust to be the out-of-control aspect of that desire for connection and creation. The creation aspect is a biological/evolutionary imperative. When only driven by that, the frequency of "desire" will progressively wane as people age (from every day in one's prime to once every other week or month even as they age). The connection aspect usually starts with the physical act and then blossoms into a deeper friendship and companionship in a healthy relationship. 
 

 

My grandparents were married for over 50 years, and never dropped in their daily frequency until grandpa ended up in the hospital just before his death.
 

There is a “pair bonding” aspect to physical intimacy that I feel is often overlooked.

 

43 minutes ago, dwai said:

I've seen this desire to possess also very much active in women as well. Only that sometimes it manifests as something else (and sometimes not). 

 

 

[dwai]

11 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

My grandparents were married for over 50 years, and never dropped in their daily frequency until grandpa ended up in the hospital just before his death.
 

There is a “pair bonding” aspect to physical intimacy that I feel is often overlooked.

 

 

 

 

I think experiences vary culturally too.

I ought not to generalize, but for the pre-urban asian societies, the physical part seemed to be more a means for procreation, than bonding per se. I could be wrong about it though...I'm basing it on what I've seen/experienced of course. 

Edited January 25, 2021 by dwai

[ilumairen]

2 minutes ago, dwai said:

 

I think experiences vary culturally too.

I ought not to generalize, but for the pre-urban asian societies, the physical part seemed to be more a means for procreation, than bonding per se. I could be wrong about it though...I'm basing it on what I've seen/experienced of course. 

I wouldn’t know; I am neither Asian nor of Asian descent.

 

Although while I was married to a man born in the Philippines and of Filipino descent, daily was the norm, and as I understood it also the norm among his parents and aunts and uncles.. which is certainly not enough of a sampling for me to make any broad generalized statement regarding the sexual nuances and choices of Filipino couples, or white midwesterners of European descent for that matter.

[Maddie]

4 minutes ago, dwai said:

 

I think experiences vary culturally too.

I ought not to generalize, but for the pre-urban asian societies, the physical part seemed to be more a means for procreation, than bonding per se. I could be wrong about it though...I'm basing it on what I've seen/experienced of course. 

 

Actually the bonding aspect is a part of the evolution from our hunter gatherer ancestors. The oxytocin produced in the brain due to attraction and sex (commonly called falling in love, but saying my brain is making oxytocin thinking about you does not sell Hallmark cards) were an evolutionary adaptation.

 

The woman had an evolutionary/survival reason to bond with the father of her children so that he would stick around to hunt and protect to ensure that the carriers of said DNA grew up to pass along more DNA.

[ilumairen]

2 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

 

Actually the bonding aspect is a part of the evolution from our hunter gatherer ancestors. The oxytocin produced in the brain due to attraction and sex (commonly called falling in love, but saying my brain is making oxytocin thinking about you does not sell Hallmark cards) were an evolutionary adaptation.

 

The woman had an evolutionary/survival reason to bond with the father of her children so that he would stick around to hunt and protect to ensure that the carriers of said DNA grew up to pass along more DNA.

The man had similar evolutionary/survival reasons..

 

As a history major (if I am remembering correctly) were you presented with the information that much of the diet was typically supplied by the gatherers?

[Maddie]

4 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

The man had similar evolutionary/survival reasons..

 

As a history major (if I am remembering correctly) were you presented with the information that much of the diet was typically supplied by the gatherers?

 

Yes that is a good point and an oversight on my part. Hunting provided much of the protein, and gathering (a mostly female activity) provided most of the other nutrients and vitamins.

[Creation]

8 hours ago, ilumairen said:

This “need to possess” is the overly yang aspect of lust, lacking in it’s complimentary yin component imo..

 

I would be curious what you view as the yin aspect of lust.

 

I have observed plenty of women with the "need to possess" the object of their desire, it just takes a different form than it does in men. Less "I will confine you to the house", more "I will berate you for even looking at another woman".

[Maddie]

2 minutes ago, Creation said:

I would be curious what you view as the yin aspect of lust.

 

I have observed plenty of women with the "need to possess" the object of their desire, it just takes a different form than it does in men. Less "I will confine you to the house", more "I will berate you for even looking at another woman".

 

True but just to be fair there are jealous men as well.

[ilumairen]

15 hours ago, Creation said:

I would be curious what you view as the yin aspect of lust.

 

I have observed plenty of women with the "need to possess" the object of their desire, it just takes a different form than it does in men. Less "I will confine you to the house", more "I will berate you for even looking at another woman".

I am going to respond to your curiosity with a question. Does berating someone sound yin to you?
 

That sounds more imbalanced “protector” to me, with the (inner) protector being the spot of yang within yin. When in balance clear and reasonable boundaries are created, and the more dominantly yang partner can more readily express the receptive yin within their yang.