Is it accurate to say that the Buddhist and Taoist differences in approach to practice lies in psychological work vs energy cultivation?

[Oneironaut]

I’m still trying to get a handle on this...

 

Correct me if I’m wrong but it appears that Buddhism works more on the psychological level but Taoism seems to go past that and work with things on the energetic level. At least as a general rule with a few minor exceptions here and there.

 

For example, the Tibetan dream yogas have a strong foundation on psychological work ranging from consistently conditioning the mind to see all of life as a dream, to setting mental intentions during specific times in a full wake cycle to remembering nightly dreams and setting up broken sleep rhythms to better the chances of becoming consciously aware in the dream state. The main induction technique is visualizing a lotus in the throat chakra (and some work with Lung/Prana). 

 

For me this is a very “fire” practice and it has a clear, structured, step by step framework on which one could work with. I’m finding it’s similar in yoga nidra where there’s a lot of passivity and “hand-holding” and you’re guided towards a mind-awake/body asleep state. I’ve been told that the training wheels come off once the person familiarizes themselves with their biology as they’re falling asleep. 

 

With Taoism on the other hand all the techniques for yogic sleep and conscious dreaming are purely based on energy work. If you have no energy sensitivity you can forget all about this. 

 

Another example is in Theravada Buddhism where anapanasati is more formulaic and logically laid out for you but in rinzai Zen I don’t think you’re expected to progress in any particular order in regards to the four tetrads. Zen as a whole is more of a method-less method when it comes to its teachings and doesn’t believe in having to explain things. For some odd reason this reminds me of classical music where one is expected to play everything perfectly off of sheet music whereas in jazz there’s more emphasis placed on ear training and improvisation. 

 

I’m sure there are many other examples but would I be correct in coming to this conclusion?

Edited January 26, 2021 by Oneironaut

[Master Logray]

4 hours ago, Oneironaut said:

I’m still trying to get a handle on this...

 

Correct me if I’m wrong but it appears that Buddhism works more on the psychological level but Taoism seems to go past that and work with things on the energetic level. At least as a general rule with a few minor exceptions here and there.

 

For example, the Tibetan dream yogas have a strong foundation on psychological work ranging from consistently conditioning the mind to see all of life as a dream, to setting mental intentions during specific times in a full wake cycle to remembering nightly dreams and setting up broken sleep rhythms to better the chances of becoming consciously aware in the dream state. The main induction technique is visualizing a lotus in the throat chakra (and some work with Lung/Prana). 

 

For me this is a very “fire” practice and it has a clear, structured, step by step framework on which one could work with. I’m finding it’s similar in yoga nidra where there’s a lot of passivity and “hand-holding” and you’re guided towards a mind-awake/body asleep state. I’ve been told that the training wheels come off once the person familiarizes themselves with their biology as they’re falling asleep. 

 

With Taoism on the other hand all the techniques for yogic sleep and conscious dreaming are purely based on energy work. If you have no energy sensitivity you can forget all about this. 

 

Another example is in Theravada Buddhism where anapanasati is more formulaic and logically laid out for you but in rinzai Zen I don’t think you’re expected to progress in any particular order in regards to the four tetrads. Zen as a whole is more of a method-less method when it comes to its teachings and doesn’t believe in having to explain things. For some odd reason this reminds me of classical music where one is expected to play everything perfectly off of sheet music whereas in jazz there’s more emphasis placed on ear training and improvisation. 

 

I’m sure there are many other examples but would I be correct in coming to this conclusion?

 

Very well said.  To simplify, Buddhism is all about mind, while Taoism is about mind/body(or energy) in varying proportions.

[Maddie]

5 hours ago, Oneironaut said:

I’m still trying to get a handle on this...

 

Correct me if I’m wrong but it appears that Buddhism works more on the psychological level but Taoism seems to go past that and work with things on the energetic level. At least as a general rule with a few minor exceptions here and there.

 

For example, the Tibetan dream yogas have a strong foundation on psychological work ranging from consistently conditioning the mind to see all of life as a dream, to setting mental intentions during specific times in a full wake cycle to remembering nightly dreams and setting up broken sleep rhythms to better the chances of becoming consciously aware in the dream state. The main induction technique is visualizing a lotus in the throat chakra (and some work with Lung/Prana). 

 

For me this is a very “fire” practice and it has a clear, structured, step by step framework on which one could work with. I’m finding it’s similar in yoga nidra where there’s a lot of passivity and “hand-holding” and you’re guided towards a mind-awake/body asleep state. I’ve been told that the training wheels come off once the person familiarizes themselves with their biology as they’re falling asleep. 

 

With Taoism on the other hand all the techniques for yogic sleep and conscious dreaming are purely based on energy work. If you have no energy sensitivity you can forget all about this. 

 

Another example is in Theravada Buddhism where anapanasati is more formulaic and logically laid out for you but in rinzai Zen I don’t think you’re expected to progress in any particular order in regards to the four tetrads. Zen as a whole is more of a method-less method when it comes to its teachings and doesn’t believe in having to explain things. For some odd reason this reminds me of classical music where one is expected to play everything perfectly off of sheet music whereas in jazz there’s more emphasis placed on ear training and improvisation. 

 

I’m sure there are many other examples but would I be correct in coming to this conclusion?

 

I think this is a good question but also a vague question which makes answering it difficult. Had you asked me this question ten years ago I would have just said yes. In a very very general way I would say yes still, but its much more complicated than that. Let's break down your thesis and then proceed.

 

Taoism-  energy work

 

Buddhism- psychology

 

Ok so yes that is one way of looking at it, and this is how I also saw it before I went to TCM school. There I noticed there were roughly two general categories of TCM students which were the westerners and the Asians. When asking the westerners about Taoism they would say that its about doing qigong and neidan and cultivating and reading the DDJ. When I would ask the Asian students they would say it was about doing to the temple now and then and offering the gods some incense and chanting and ceremonies and honoring the dead. As a westerner you might imagine what went through my recently disillusioned with church mind, (oh so like going to church). Many of the Asians knew nothing of qigong or cultivation. To be fair when I would ask the Asian Buddhists the same question I basically got the same answer, Buddhism was about rituals and ceremonies and going to the temple. 

 Later on I eventually did run into a few of the Asian students and teachers that seemed to be a little more in the know about these things and they more or less explained it like this. The distinctions of Taoist or Buddhist were less important than the cultivation method one chose to approach these things. There was the scholar approach, the yogic approach, the medical approach and the devotional approach. Most of what is discussed here would fall under the yogic approach of qigong, meditation, and alchemy. They also shared how for since the beginning of time each approach tended to condescend to the other approach as "quaint". So unfortunately for the purposes of your question I don't think there really is an easy cut and dry answer. 

 

So maybe more like:

 

Taoism- scholarly 

                yogic

                medical

                devotional

 

Buddhism- scholarly 

                    yogic

                    medical

                    devotional

 

 

 

 

Edited January 26, 2021 by dmattwads

[freeform]

It's not that Daoism is not about 'mind'.

 

It's just the vehicle to working on the mind is through Qi.

 

Qi is the quintessentially Daoist principle... For the Daoists everything has Qi - ignorance is a type of Qi, mindfulness is a type of Qi.

 

Every state of consciousness and every physical manifestation of anything has an underlying 'energetic' substance to it. The Daoists think that working with these substances is the correct way to cultivate.

 

Much of what one may think of as psychological or spiritual is addressed indirectly through Qi... Many of the Daoist lineages have very indepth meditative systems of practice. But they don't stop at the experience of states of consciousness... they take the substance at the seat of this state and work with it through alchemical methods to produce permanent transformation.

[forestofclarity]

How would you work on the mind without qi, and how would you work on qi without mind? 

 

[thelerner]

.. Is it accurate to say that the Buddhist and Taoist differences in approach to practice lies in psychological work vs energy cultivation?

 

While not the whole truth, I think there may be something to that.  From a Western viewpoint Buddhism has much psychological work, plus a whole lot more.  Similarly Taoism has many energy practices, plus a whole lot more too.  

[Limahong]

1 hour ago, forestofemptiness said:

How would you work on the mind without qi, and how would you work on qi without mind?

 

 

Don't forget the body ~ jing  <=> qi <=> shen.

 

 

1 hour ago, thelerner said:

From a Western viewpoint Buddhism has much psychological work, plus a whole lot more.  Similarly Taoism has many energy practices, plus a whole lot more too.

 

 

When Buddhism and Taoism are embraced as philosophies ~ there are a whole lot more...

 

(a) each on its own.

 

(b) both combined.

 

 

 

[Oneironaut]

12 hours ago, freeform said:

It's not that Daoism is not about 'mind'.

 

It's just the vehicle to working on the mind is through Qi.

 

I'm still having difficulties wrapping my mind around this. Qi cultivation and learning how to work with these energies can actually create profound and tangible changes in mind? 

 

I'm more used to direct ways of training or exercising the mind. It may be more "yang" but working with Qi to create tangible changes in mind is a very foreign concept to me. Mystical even. 

 

12 hours ago, freeform said:

 

Qi is the quintessentially Daoist principle... For the Daoists everything has Qi - ignorance is a type of Qi, mindfulness is a type of Qi.

 

Every state of consciousness and every physical manifestation of anything has an underlying 'energetic' substance to it. The Daoists think that working with these substances is the correct way to cultivate.

 

Much of what one may think of as psychological or spiritual is addressed indirectly through Qi... Many of the Daoist lineages have very indepth meditative systems of practice. But they don't stop at the experience of states of consciousness... they take the substance at the seat of this state and work with it through alchemical methods to produce permanent transformation.

 

I briefly tried the "fake it till you make it" approach when it comes to Qi sensitivity and cultivation. Do you think some people just aren't meant to experience Qi or how to work with it?

[freeform]

4 hours ago, Oneironaut said:

I'm still having difficulties wrapping my mind around this. Qi cultivation and learning how to work with these energies can actually create profound and tangible changes in mind? 

In eastern thought everything is Mind... The meridians are like the way the mind extends into and ‘creates’ the body...

 

In essence your Qi is your mind (though not the mind you identify with - it’s deeper than that).

 

The Daoist thinking is - that using the mind to work with the mind is close to impossible... like trying to control fire with more fire... for instance if you identify something in your mind as a problem - by the very fact you identified it as a problem, it has entrenched it even deeper... the identification itself adds another layer of illusion to the existing disharmony - and now it’s harder to let go of.

 

So Daoists work on the underlying Qi mechanics... patterns of Qi are hard to attach to - hard to form any emotional reaction to something without any inherent emotional content... on the level of the Qi, a trauma simply “looks” like a stuck splodge... not particularly emotionally captivating... and simply doing your practice will eventually unbind and release the splodge without you even noticing. No catharsis, no struggle, no identification - it simply drops off like an old scab.

 

4 hours ago, Oneironaut said:

I briefly tried the "fake it till you make it" approach when it comes to Qi sensitivity and cultivation. Do you think some people just aren't meant to experience Qi or how to work with it?

Qi sensitivity is overrated. 
 

When Qi really wakes up, it’s pretty hard to ignore.
 

If it’s super subtle, then you’re best off paying attention to your body, not trying to find the Qi. Most genuine practices start with working on the body directly. Have a look at Damo Mitchell’s academy - from what I’ve seen people are making great progress. Which surprised me as I’m not into online training... but seems it works...

[Master Logray]

22 hours ago, dmattwads said:

 

So maybe more like:

 

Taoism- scholarly 

                yogic

                medical

                devotional

 

Buddhism- scholarly 

                    yogic

                    medical

                    devotional

 

 

Then most religions have these 4 aspects.  But we can't say all of them are the same.

 

[Wilhelm]

On 26/01/2021 at 4:41 AM, Oneironaut said:

With Taoism on the other hand all the techniques for yogic sleep and conscious dreaming are purely based on energy work. If you have no energy sensitivity you can forget all about this. 

 

4 hours ago, freeform said:

Qi sensitivity is overrated. 

 

When Qi really wakes up, it’s pretty hard to ignore.

Just wanted to double up on this point.  I also thought feeling the Qi would be important right away, but it doesn't seem to be.  Based on my own understanding so far, Qi seems to do its thing according to how you've set your mind and body when performing the exercises.

 

A much more useful focus turned out to be (in my case) how to find the ideal mind state (initially one that doesn't interfere with the Qi) and the correct body principles (ones that enhance the conductivity of Qi).  Initially when you assume the correct body principles, you'll be so danged focus on keeping those correct that you'll stop worrying about Qi altogether!  (Or at least that's what happened to me)

 

And I think that's fine.  I wanted to run before I could crawl, when starting these arts.  All the shortcuts were just delays

 

Getting the body right and the mind right took a long time, but it probably would've been most efficient to JUST worry about that initially.

 

Then when your Dan Tien wakes up (which you could easily do within a year, and probably earlier), all bets are off!  You'll stop worrying about whether Qi is real and start worrying about whether you're going to smack your head into the coffee table from all the ways the Qi is pulling you 😅 (which is just a stage called Zi Fa Gong which helps you clear out a whole bunch of energetic debris then settles)

 

Edit: also, not to create a diversion - but I've heard Buddhism has plenty of energetic practices that just didn't filter into the West

Edited January 27, 2021 by Wilhelm

[Maddie]

34 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

 

Just wanted to double up on this point.  I also thought feeling the Qi would be important right away, but it doesn't seem to be.  Based on my own understanding so far, Qi seems to do its thing according to how you've set your mind and body when performing the exercises.

 

A much more useful focus turned out to be (in my case) how to find the ideal mind state (initially one that doesn't interfere with the Qi) and the correct body principles (ones that enhance the conductivity of Qi).  Initially when you assume the correct body principles, you'll be so danged focus on keeping those correct that you'll stop worrying about Qi altogether!  (Or at least that's what happened to me)

 

And I think that's fine.  I wanted to run before I could crawl, when starting these arts.  All the shortcuts were just delays

 

Getting the body right and the mind right took a long time, but it probably would've been most efficient to JUST worry about that initially.

 

Then when your Dan Tien wakes up (which you could easily do within a year, and probably earlier), all bets are off!  You'll stop worrying about whether Qi is real and start worrying about whether you're going to smack your head into the coffee table from all the ways the Qi is pulling you 😅 (which is just a stage called Zi Fa Gong which helps you clear out a whole bunch of energetic debris then settles)

 

Edit: also, not to create a diversion - but I've heard Buddhism has plenty of energetic practices that just didn't filter into the West

 

I just want to make sure I am understanding this correctly. Are you saying just make sure you are doing the forms correctly and the qi will take care of itself?

 

[Wilhelm]

58 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

 

I just want to make sure I am understanding this correctly. Are you saying just make sure you are doing the forms correctly and the qi will take care of itself?

 

Hmmm... It could be, if I have your meaning right!

 

In case an analogy might be more helpful, maybe it could be said that the principles create the blank 'canvas' that can then be 'patterned' with Qi through movement to create 'pictures' (effects), depending on which form you are practicing.  Each form will paint a different picture, but without the blank canvas the Qi has nothing to 'stick to' and so there's no lasting picture.

 

Edit: so then to answer your question (which I seemed to have forgotten to do 😅) - as far as I know - the Qi is taken care of by maintaining the correct principles while you assume the static posture or go through the movement exercise.  If you try to move the Qi directly, it may or may not do so for the duration of the exercise, but this will stop as soon as you stop the exercise.  So it's more efficient to just set up the conditions for it to take care of itself, because those results will last beyond your practice session.

 

There's a couple problems with this analogy though, one of which being that through continued practice your canvas changes and then the same forms end up creating entirely different pictures.

 

So doing the forms correctly doesn't mean copying the external movements - it means adopting the correct principles and then following the instructions within the bounds of your current 'canvas'. 

 

I might tried too hard to be poetic, here!  Does that make sense?

Edited January 27, 2021 by Wilhelm

[Maddie]

6 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

Hmmm... It could be, if I have your meaning right!

 

In case an analogy might be more helpful, maybe it could be said that the principles create the blank 'canvas' that can then be 'patterned' with Qi through movement to create 'pictures' (effects), depending on which form you are practicing.  Each form will paint a different picture, but without the blank canvas the Qi has nothing to 'stick to' and so there's no lasting picture.

 

There's a couple problems with this analogy though, one of which being that through continued practice your canvas changes and then the same forms end up creating entirely different pictures.

 

So doing the forms correctly doesn't mean copying the external movements - it means adopting the correct principles and then following the instructions within the bounds of your current 'canvas'. 

 

I might tried too hard to be poetic, here!  Does that make sense?

 

No.... sorry, but no lol

[Wilhelm]

18 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

 

No.... sorry, but no lol

Oh.  That's too bad!  I was becoming fond of the analogy lol.

 

I'm sure (or rather I hope) that freeform will come and bail me out before too long

Edited January 27, 2021 by Wilhelm

[C T]

Indeed, there are quite a few *energetic* practices related to Secret Mantra/Vajrayana, but on a practical level, the simple yet profound yantra yoga, or just a daily routine of prostrations for an extended period (of years), is more than sufficient to bring about mind/body balance, alignment and flow. 

[freeform]

My favourite analogy for how qigong works is gardening related.

 

What we want to do is dig a channel for the water to flow of its own accord.
 

‘Digging the channel’ is working on quite physical (though unusual) aspects of the body.
 

What you know of as meridians are actually running along a ‘riverbed’ of physical soft tissue channels (akin to fascia) - which are the Jing Jin lines.

 

So we start qigong by working on clearing, strengthening and interconnecting these river beds so that the water (Qi) flows down the correct routes smoothly and of its own accord.

 

No need to push or pull the water itself... just clear the channel and the water will move by it’s self, at it’s own pace.

 

So yes - the answer is doing the forms ‘correctly’.

 

Though ‘correctly’ means different things to different teachers.
 

There are nuanced internal mechanics and principles we must follow to do it actually correctly.

 

You'll often see someone doing pretty simple, easy looking movements - but they’re dripping in sweat and their body trembling with the effort... that’s often an indication that the correct principles are being put into action.

 

If you simply imitate the movements you can see on the outside, but using none of the principles - you’d just be doing (really boring) choreography... and no internal work would be happening.
 

The channels wouldn’t be dug - you’d just be getting an extremely light mobility workout.
 

The vast majority of what I see the well known teachers teaching is just this type of choreography sadly. 
 

But these days, more and more genuine teachers are surfacing and indeed teaching the real methods - which is great.

Edited January 27, 2021 by freeform

[Wilhelm]

38 minutes ago, freeform said:

My favorite analogy

Spoiler

Gardening over painting??!?

 

38 minutes ago, freeform said:

The channels wouldn’t be dug - you’d just be getting an extremely light mobility workout.

Right on! 

 

Qigong with principles is the best exercise that I know of (though IMAs with principles are really good too).  

 

Given that all that science has measured from Qigong without principles (or without having dug the channels, as freeform said) are things like:

"Qigong is good for balance."

"Qigong may improve circulation and lymphatic flow"

It seems like you'd almost be better off taking a brisk walk!  😭

 

Edited January 27, 2021 by Wilhelm

[Oneironaut]

14 hours ago, freeform said:

My favourite analogy for how qigong works is gardening related.

 

What we want to do is dig a channel for the water to flow of its own accord.
 

‘Digging the channel’ is working on quite physical (though unusual) aspects of the body.
 

What you know of as meridians are actually running along a ‘riverbed’ of physical soft tissue channels (akin to fascia) - which are the Jing Jin lines.

 

So we start qigong by working on clearing, strengthening and interconnecting these river beds so that the water (Qi) flows down the correct routes smoothly and of its own accord.

 

No need to push or pull the water itself... just clear the channel and the water will move by it’s self, at it’s own pace.

 

So yes - the answer is doing the forms ‘correctly’.

 

Though ‘correctly’ means different things to different teachers.
 

There are nuanced internal mechanics and principles we must follow to do it actually correctly.

 

You'll often see someone doing pretty simple, easy looking movements - but they’re dripping in sweat and their body trembling with the effort... that’s often an indication that the correct principles are being put into action.

 

If you simply imitate the movements you can see on the outside, but using none of the principles - you’d just be doing (really boring) choreography... and no internal work would be happening.
 

The channels wouldn’t be dug - you’d just be getting an extremely light mobility workout.
 

The vast majority of what I see the well known teachers teaching is just this type of choreography sadly. 
 

But these days, more and more genuine teachers are surfacing and indeed teaching the real methods - which is great.

 

Once you clear these channels and allow the water to flow how much are you able to "control" these energies for healing or for achieving advanced meditative practices such as suspension of thought?

 

Once you learn how to work with these energies are you "locked in" to a specific system or can you sort of reverse engineer how other systems move energy to achieve specific goals?

 

 

[freeform]

3 hours ago, Oneironaut said:

Once you clear these channels and allow the water to flow how much are you able to "control" these energies for healing or for achieving advanced meditative practices such as suspension of thought?

Control is a funny word... For instance controlling water - you certainly can’t control it in the same way as you could control a brick for instance.

 

You want a brick on your table? You pick it up and move it. You want it under the table? You pick it up and put it there.

 

Try doing that with water...

 

With water everything you do is indirect... you work on plumbing, you work on containers - and you always let water do it’s own thing.
 

So it’s similar with Qi. 
 

For stilling the mind for instance - you don’t need to do anything... simply clearing the river beds will calm the mind (remember Qi is the higher mind). Once you’ve created the ‘container’ for the Qi in your belly... once you’ve cleared the path for it to sink, your mind will naturally quiet down of its own accord.

 

When you’re full of Qi it feels like you’re just back from a long holiday - completely relaxed, vital, full of good mood and nothing bothers you.

 

Most people are meditating while stressed, depleted, anxious and addicted to stimulation... and when they look inside they find even more garbage - and the stress increases.

 

Secondly Qi can act as a sort of fuel... instead of reaching a kind of nihilistic emptiness in advanced meditation, with Qi, one reaches a stillness out of which radiates a bright light...

 

Healing in yourself usually happens automatically with long term practice. Sometimes you need extra help.
 

When you’re advanced, you can emit Qi from your hands and heal others.

 

3 hours ago, Oneironaut said:

Once you learn how to work with these energies are you "locked in" to a specific system or can you sort of reverse engineer how other systems move energy to achieve specific goals?

To achieve any of the above, you need to be following a genuine system. A genuine system will contain everything from beginning to enlightenment and beyond.

 

Trying to reverse engineer things generally gets you nowhere. And often it’s dangerous. These things are developed by thousands of great minds over many hundreds of generations, carefully refining the process generation after generation... Are you smarter and more insightful than that? Can you reverse engineer the whole of physics? Or the whole field of mathematics?  I certainly am not  

 

So although you’re not ‘locked in’ to anything - trying to make your own path to enlightenment is like taking your own made up route to the top of the Everest... 

 

[Maddie]

20 hours ago, freeform said:

If you simply imitate the movements you can see on the outside, but using none of the principles - you’d just be doing (really boring) choreography... and no internal work would be happening.

 

The channels wouldn’t be dug - you’d just be getting an extremely light mobility workout.
 

The vast majority of what I see the well known teachers teaching is just this type of choreography sadly. 

 

 I think this is the reason I eventually fell out with qigong. I began to feel like I was doing nothing more than fancy calisthenics. 

 Then when I was in Acupuncture school there was another student who was a self-proclaimed Qigong master and seemed to have a group of mainly female disciples following him around that he would teach Qigong to or something to. So anyway when I was struggling with the question of am I just doing calisthenics I went up and asked him as he was being swooned by his disciples what's the difference between Qigong and calisthenics and the blank look on his face told me he didn't really know the answer and that's kind of when I dropped it.

 

On an unrelated note I don't really know what he was doing but he was doing something cuz I've never seen a pack of women follow a guy around like that outside of cults.

[anshino23]

19 hours ago, freeform said:

You'll often see someone doing pretty simple, easy looking movements - but they’re dripping in sweat and their body trembling with the effort... that’s often an indication that the correct principles are being put into action.

 

If you simply imitate the movements you can see on the outside, but using none of the principles - you’d just be doing (really boring) choreography... and no internal work would be happening.

 

Said another way... if you're not entering a state where the energy starts to course its way through and "replaces" the physical blueprint with a subtle blueprint - the yang qi rising and burning through all the energetic blockages - then you are not progressing! Even if it is immense sweating, itching, burning, heat, cold, these are all signs of progress! If you are sitting or standing there in dullness and not having any transformation - that's a huge mistake. Unfortunately so many fall into this trap... 

 

I imagine that's why people think meditation and qigong is so easy  

 

"You just wave your hands around" or "You just sit? I do that on my vacation...Seems pretty easy" 

 

Ha ha... Right. 

[Maddie]

1 minute ago, anshino23 said:

 

Said another way... if you're not entering a state where the energy starts to course its way through and "replaces" the physical blueprint with a subtle blueprint - the yang qi rising and burning through all the energetic blockages - then you are not progressing! Even if it is immense sweating, itching, burning, heat, cold, these are all signs of progress! If you are sitting or standing there in dullness and not having any transformation - that's a huge mistake. Unfortunately so many fall into this trap... 

 

I imagine that's why people think meditation and qigong is so easy  

 

"You just wave your hands around" or "You just sit? I do that on my vacation...Seems pretty easy" 

 

Ha ha... Right. 

 

I remember years back when I started doing ZZ briefly I couldn't believe how much I was sweating from just standing there and I thought maybe something was wrong.

[freeform]

19 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

I think this is the reason I eventually fell out with qigong. I began to feel like I was doing nothing more than fancy calisthenics.

 

When Qi really moves it's anything but subtle

 

 

Eventually when this sort of reaction stops happening - the Qi that creates these movements is still coursing through you on the 'inside' - and doing even simple movements feels extremely powerful on the inside.

 

The sweating that's experienced at the start of ones Qigong journey is usually due to the stabiliser muscles being worked very hard through standing. It's usually not Qi. (though sometimes it is)

 

The sweating that comes about after the zifagong stage - is the result of Qi flow meeting internal resistance in the body (and mind)... as the resistance is cleared, the channels are opened more, then the sweating generally stops - and it feels like the movements 'do themselves'... it's like there's no effort and your limbs just float through their movements... You drop your weight to your foot - and your arms rise up and do the correct movements by themselves. It's a very pleasant stage (but it must be moved past quickly)

 

Past this stage, you're meant to Song more into that floaty feeling - releasing a further layer of tension - the qi goes deeper - and more sweating and sometimes pretty painful internal stretches start happening. With this stuff you always feel a little sore and wrung out... you actually start to miss that feeling if you havent had the opportunity to train for a while

 

If none of this is happening - usually it's just choreography or something very light designed for the frail.

 

When they say something is 'internal' - in one way it means that a lot more stuff is moving on the inside than is moving on the outside.

[Maddie]

26 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

When Qi really moves it's anything but subtle

 

 

Eventually when this sort of reaction stops happening - the Qi that creates these movements is still coursing through you on the 'inside' - and doing even simple movements feels extremely powerful on the inside.

 

The sweating that's experienced at the start of ones Qigong journey is usually due to the stabiliser muscles being worked very hard through standing. It's usually not Qi. (though sometimes it is)

 

The sweating that comes about after the zifagong stage - is the result of Qi flow meeting internal resistance in the body (and mind)... as the resistance is cleared, the channels are opened more, then the sweating generally stops - and it feels like the movements 'do themselves'... it's like there's no effort and your limbs just float through their movements... You drop your weight to your foot - and your arms rise up and do the correct movements by themselves. It's a very pleasant stage (but it must be moved past quickly)

 

Past this stage, you're meant to Song more into that floaty feeling - releasing a further layer of tension - the qi goes deeper - and more sweating and sometimes pretty painful internal stretches start happening. With this stuff you always feel a little sore and wrung out... you actually start to miss that feeling if you havent had the opportunity to train for a while

 

If none of this is happening - usually it's just choreography or something very light designed for the frail.

 

When they say something is 'internal' - in one way it means that a lot more stuff is moving on the inside than is moving on the outside.

 

Thank you, that is good stuff.

 

I think I feel a bit lost lately.

 

First Christianity said this is the way it IS, but then later I thought "alright but this doesn't really make sense".

 

Then I try qigong, but after a while I feel like I'm just flapping my arms around.

 

Then Buddhism says no this is the way it IS, but then I'm like hmmm I'm not sure.

 

So now I'm scratching my head a bit and trying to find something verifiable.

 

** Interestingly enough I just remembered I had some kind of dream last night about yin and yang.

Edited January 28, 2021 by dmattwads