Sugriva’s Atlas - 14000 years back

[Nungali]

40 minutes ago, dwai said:

I didn’t see that awareness come across in your posts.

 

'takes one to see one '  

 

 

 

Quote

 

 

Maybe we can drill down into it. 

 

Only if it can be a process that has more lineal logic and  actual response to actual queries and not a whole lot of made up stuff and ignoring, game and word play

 

 

 

Quote

That is certainly possible, or maybe because of the fact that I straddle both “worlds”, I am aware of the subtle inherent conditioning I referred to.  

 

Then if you ARE aware of such conditions , you should be more careful of whose youtubes you pay attention to . There are much better main stream Indian scientists around  than wacky youtube guy .

 

 

Let's look at some trends in recent Indian  science  ...

 

oh wait ... are you going to claim   'cow tailing ' to the west      ?

 

The new head of the Indian Council for Historical Research wants to re-examine established notions about the country's history

 

Politics has always used history as a tool and agent. The move is reminiscent of the appointment of Murli Manohar Joshi as human resources development minister in Atal Bihari Vajpayee’s Bharatiya Janata Party government. Joshi made a number of appointments in crucial academic positions that were criticised by academic historians at the time as attempts to saffronise the curriculum and position Hindu scriptural dicta as academic thought.

 

When prime minister Narendra Modi mentioned India’s “slave mentality of 1,200 years” in the Lok Sabha, he was asserting that it was not only during the 200 years of British dominion that Indians were enslaved, but in the preceding 1,000 years of Muslim-rule as well. The 1,000-year number is incorrect in any case; Muslim monarchs of various dynasties controlled Delhi for about 600 years, and even less in other parts of the subcontinent.

 

In January, Hindutva adherents on Twitter created a furore over Tipu Sultan being featured on Karnataka’s Republic Day float. A number of Indian historians have championed Sultan as one of the few kings who refused to submit to England’s military advantage.

 

An extreme version of the efforts to delegitimise rulers of this age is found in the works of historian PN Oak (quoted often by a member of the BJP, Subramanian Swamy). Oak claims that the Taj Mahal was once a Shiva temple named “Tejo Mahalaya” that the Mughals simply took over, changing the name slightly.

 

Religious history, in itself, is a useful field given how society is shaped by faith. Archaeologists like BB Lal and SR Rao have even sought to determine the truth of events related in the Mahabharata through their research.

Unfortunately, much of this work has been literalist in approach, reminiscent of the Biblical archaeology movement. This perception is reinforced by the treatment that Wendy Doniger’s work on Hinduism has received. Dinanath Batra, the senior RSS member who ensured Doniger’s publishers pulped her book, advised the previous BJP government on education policy.

 

 

When the BJP was last in power, bitter squabbles arose over whether Hindutva ideologue Veer Savarkar’s picture should go up in Parliament or not. Nehru – a fond target of the Hindutva right – will probably come under more attack, and his more conservative contemporary Vallabhbhai Patel will be championed.

Yet, even as the RSS makes strenuous efforts to refashion history to suit its own needs, it must be pointed out to anybody excessively alarmed (or pleased) by this, that official histories have a pretty small role to play in today’s world. For example, the current set of history textbooks published by the National Council for Educational Research and Training are truly well-written, with little political interference and featuring the latest research. Most politically aware Indians, though, simply ignore them and pick such history off the Internet, that best fits their preconceived notions.

 

Moreover, most of the primary research is now done outside India. More academics in India seem to be keeping away from the hard grind of primary-source research, an attitude that American Sanskrit scholar Sheldon Pollock has described as “cultural genocide”. That, perhaps, is something we should be worrying about more.

 

https://scroll.in/article/669435/five-things-hindutva-historians-are-obsessed-with

 

and 

 

' Is Indian Civilization a Myth?'  by  Sanjay Subrahmanyam.   2013

 

 

( Sanjay Subramanyam is the son of K. Subrahmanyam and his wife Sulochana.^[2] His father, K. Subrahmanyam, was a prominent expert on strategic affairs. Sanjay has an older sister and two older brothers, namely Subrahmanyam Jaishankar, who retired from the Indian Foreign Service as its head, and serves now as India's Minister of External Affairs; and S. Vijay Kumar, who followed their father into the highly prestigious Indian Administrative Service.^[3] Subrahmanyam is married to a UCLA historian of modern France, Caroline Ford.

Sanjay Subrahmanyam did his BA and MA in economics from the University of Delhi. He received his PhD in 1987 in economics from the Delhi School of Economics on the topic of "Trade and the Regional Economy of South India, c. 1550–1650".^[1

 

Subrahmanyam taught economic history and comparative economic development at the Delhi School of Economics till 1995. He then moved to Paris as Directeur d'études in the École des hautes études en sciences sociales, where he taught history of the Mughal empire, and the comparative history of early modern empires till 2002.^{[citation needed]} In 2002, Subrahmanyam moved to Oxford as the first holder of the newly created Chair in Indian History and Culture. In 2004 he became the Navin and Pratima Doshi Chair in Indian History at UCLA, and a year later, in 2005, he became the founding Director of UCLA's Center for India and South Asia.^[2] In 2014 he was appointed to the Irving and Jean Stone Endowed Chair in Social Sciences at UCLA.^{[citation needed]}

 

In 2012, Subrahmanyam was awarded the first Infosys Prize in Humanities, for his 'path-breaking contribution to history'.^[4] He also served as a Humanities jury member for the prize from 2019.^[5]

He was elected to the American Academy of Arts and Sciences in 2009 and as a corresponding fellow to the British Academy in 2016. Bryn Mawr College in Pennsylvania selected Dr. Subrahmanyam as the 2009 Mary Flexner Lecturer. In 2012, he won the Infosys Prize for humanities for his "path-breaking contribution to history". He was elected professor and to the chair Histoire Globale de la Première Modernité at the Collège de France in 2013.

On 67 February 2017, Subrahmanyam received an honoris causa doctorate from the Université catholique de Louvain.^[6]

The Martine Aublet Prize for 2018 was awarded to Subrahmanyam for his book, L'inde sous les yeux de l'Europe: mots, peuples, empires (Alma Editeur, 2018), by the Musée de Quai Branly.^[7]

In February 2019, Sanjay Subrahmanyam was awarded the Dan David Prize for History (jointly with Kenneth Pomeranz, Chicago).^[8]

Historian Srinath Raghavan wrote of Subrahmanyam in 2013,^[9]

 

^{NOW   what are the credentials of Niesh Oak}

 

Nilesh Oak holds BS & MS in Chemical Engineering and Executive MBA. He is interested in Astronomy, Archeology, Geology, Genetics, Quantum Mechanics, Economics, Ancient narratives and Philosophy.

 

....   '  interested in  '

 

He published his first book, ‘When did the Mahabharata War Happen?:The Mystery of Arundhati’ in 2011

 

He published his second book, ‘The Historic Rama – Indian Civilization at the end of Pleistocene’ in 2014. ]

 

On 'Is Indian Civilisation a Myth' ;

 

" In the book, I argued that an obsession with the idea of a “civilisation” in India (or for that matter, in any part of the world) quickly becomes a claim about the fixity of certain relationships and cultural values. The rhetoric of “clash of civilisations” used by Samuel Huntington and others stemmed directly from this conception. And as such, it is ahistorical or not useful for the purposes of the historian most of the time. I was especially influenced by an essay by the American historian David Ludden, called ‘History outside Civilization’, about the importance of mobility for South Asia. Basically, my point is that when people talk of “civilisation” they immediately fall into the trap of constructing a Golden Age from which we have deviated. They become fundamentalists defending that Golden Age. This is the same problem we see in some parts of Europe today, where people like Alain Finkielkraut or Éric Zemmour imagine that there was a pure European civilisation which is now being contaminated. As it happens, there is a dangerous alliance between some of these elements in Europe and similar elements in India. On the other hand, I have no problem with a word like “culture”, which allows for historical change and is far more flexible in its connotations "

Edited February 14, 2021 by Nungali

[dwai]

The Big Scandal of Indology 

— 

 

this covers all the major issues I’ve raised. enjoy  

Spoiler

 

 

[Nungali]

 

Another video      this time one and a half hours long !  

 

Here is a shorter one  .... a pity  I cant  read  the script I can only get a visual idea  that the  'fake history of India ' is even mocked by Indians .

 

This is from India Media Group ;   ITG  ( includes  ' India today'  with  that publication alone having a readership of  around 8  million . )

 

 

[dwai]

39 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

Another video      this time one and a half hours long !  

 

Here is a shorter one  .... a pity  I cant  read  the script I can only get a visual idea  that the  'fake history of India ' is even mocked by Indians .

 

This is from India Media Group ;   ITG  ( includes  ' India today'  with  that publication alone having a readership of  around 8  million . )

 

 

The India today group was tamed  

[Nungali]

Interesting .

 

'Tamed' from what , and into what , and by whom ?

[Apech]

I'm itching to read Wendy Doniger and find out why she sooooo bad.

[dwai]

3 hours ago, Apech said:

I'm itching to read Wendy Doniger and find out why she sooooo bad.

Because she’s  doesn’t really know Sanskrit, and yet claims to be a Vedic scholar 🤷‍♂️

[Apech]

16 minutes ago, dwai said:

Because she’s  doesn’t really know Sanskrit, and yet claims to be a Vedic scholar 🤷‍♂️

 

Because she has written a book which upsets the Hindu right-wing nationalists.

 

 

[dwai]

11 hours ago, Nungali said:

Interesting .

 

'Tamed' from what , and into what , and by whom ?

For that one has to be knowledgeable and aware of Indian politics. 

 

So india today was a very vocal critic of the current government for its first term. When they won in 2019 with an even larger mandate than in 2014, many of these journalists decided to really investigate what the reason was. What they found was that the government was actually doing real work on the ground, and the poor were suddenly not so poor anymore — millions got bank accounts, access to the digital economy, universal healthcare and insurance, cooking gas in their homes.
 

Prior to 2019, mainstream media in India almost unanimously rained vitriol and hatred on the government, the ruling party and of course the Prime Minister (like the ridiculous caricatures like in that video).
 

After 2019, many a hardcore critic finally accepted that they had missed what was happening on the ground, because they didn’t step out of their ivory towers to actually realize why this government got a clear mandate again. (and I daresay they will do so at least another term in 2024). So we find them to be far more reasonable now, than they were before 2019. 
 

The phenomenon of hating on this government and the Prime Minister is another symptom of the colonized mentality of many of the English educated people in India - especially until my generation (pre-internet) -  a very terrible kind of chauvinism that masks itself as an intellectual position vis-a-vis society. There is a conditioning that’s been built in that, everything naturally Indian/traditional is also less worthy than the “imported” stuff — things, ideas, personalities even. That is the same phenomenon which is responsible for the way in which Indian history has been treated by Indian academics (as discussed in that video session by Prof. Kak). 

 

[dwai]

14 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

Because she has written a book which upsets the Hindu right-wing nationalists.

 

 

No, because she is ignorant in the field she claims to have scholarship on. The basic requirement to be able to study Vedas is a knowledge of Sanskrit, which she doesn’t. Most of these academics rehash translations done in the 18th and 19th centuries. 

[dwai]

And before we go down the rabbit hole of “Hindu nationalism” deflection, let’s go back to the impact of colonialism —

 

 

 

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, dwai said:

For that one has to be knowledgeable and aware of Indian politics. 

 

So india today was a very vocal critic of the current government for its first term. When they won in 2019 with an even larger mandate than in 2014, many of these journalists decided to really investigate what the reason was. What they found was that the government was actually doing real work on the ground, and the poor were suddenly not so poor anymore — millions got bank accounts, access to the digital economy, universal healthcare and insurance, cooking gas in their homes.
 

Prior to 2019, mainstream media in India almost unanimously rained vitriol and hatred on the government, the ruling party and of course the Prime Minister (like the ridiculous caricatures like in that video).
 

After 2019, many a hardcore critic finally accepted that they had missed what was happening on the ground, because they didn’t step out of their ivory towers to actually realize why this government got a clear mandate again. (and I daresay they will do so at least another term in 2024). So we find them to be far more reasonable now, than they were before 2019. 
 

The phenomenon of hating on this government and the Prime Minister is another symptom of the colonized mentality of many of the English educated people in India - especially until my generation (pre-internet) -  a very terrible kind of chauvinism that masks itself as an intellectual position vis-a-vis society. There is a conditioning that’s been built in that, everything naturally Indian/traditional is also less worthy than the “imported” stuff — things, ideas, personalities even. That is the same phenomenon which is responsible for the way in which Indian history has been treated by Indian academics (as discussed in that video session by Prof. Kak). 

 

 

 

Nice diversion .... but rather 'revealing'  about your 'position '       

 

...  but let's go back a bit .  ASIDE from Indian politics  ... did the Indian PM make those blunders relating to INDIAN HISTORY depicted in that video     OR NOT   ?

 

The video isnt criticising   what you are outlining is it ?    Which is a totally different subject, that is ; The Indian acknowledgement that obvious BS is said by Indians (some in important positions ) about Indian history .

 

This whole dance over 4 pages  has been  rather 'transparent '        

 

 

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, Apech said:

 

Because she has written a book which upsets the Hindu right-wing nationalists.

 

 

 

Ooooo ! I'm gonna have to read her too  ! 

 

You know,  the way I first heard about  Marjia  Gimbutas   

 

(   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Europe_(archaeology)

 

- which opened up a whole new page on history for me in Europe and led to an education in things like a  different view on early  pre IE societies , matriarchy and that ancient Euros ( and nearly all of 'us ' ) where 'black' - dark skinned  - )

 

was, I was on history forum and  some Indian guys where 'doing the usual' and one started ranting about  ' that bitch  Marja Gimbutas '  and the other responded  ' she is a real s**t ' . I had never heard of her and wondered what on earth she could have done for some Indians to obviously hate her so much .    Apparently she had dared to suggest  IE came from somewhere other than India .  Both of them where immediately expelled .

 

The history site has acknowledged it has a problem in the Asian area with ' The Indian problems ' . It seems  fuelled by  politics , nationalism , strongly affirmed religious beliefs , issues about tribe, territory caste , etc  and  arguments about things like if   Jats are regarded as Kshatriyas, while others assign Vaishya or Shudra varna to them -  such discussions are now banned  there .

 

Edited February 14, 2021 by Nungali

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, dwai said:

And before we go down the rabbit hole of “Hindu nationalism” deflection, let’s go back to the impact of colonialism —

 

 

 

 

 

out of one rabbit hole of deflection into another  

 

Or , was the OP and the OP video about Indian ancient history   off topic and this thread was about colonialism  all along ?

[Nungali]

Which by the way , I already said  I agree with you on .

 

I dont think anyone here is arguing with you about the shitful things the British Empire has done  - especially in India and China . - just like no one was suggesting the whole planet was covered with ice during the ice age 

 

Also lets not forget the horrible things other Euro Empires did to eastern countries and the Indigenous the world over . . . . shameful !

Edited February 14, 2021 by Nungali

[Apech]

11 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Which by the way , I already said  I agree with you on .

 

I dont think anyone here is arguing with you about the shitful things the British Empire has done  - especially in India and China . - just like no one was suggesting the whole planet was covered with ice during the ice age 

 

Also lets not forget the horrible things other Euro Empires did to eastern countries and the Indigenous the world over . . . . shameful !

 

In England we haven't recovered from those f**king Romans with their straight roads and hypocausts.

 

 

[Nungali]

16 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

In England we haven't recovered from those f**king Romans with their straight roads and hypocausts.

 

 

 

Damn those hypocausts!  I cant stand people   who put on a false appearance of virtue or religion .

[dwai]

3 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

 

Nice diversion .... but rather 'revealing'  about your 'position '       

 

...  but let's go back a bit .  ASIDE from Indian politics  ... did the Indian PM make those blunders relating to INDIAN HISTORY depicted in that video     OR NOT   ?

I don’t know 🤷‍♂️ 

so what if he did? He’s not a historian. 

Quote

 

The video isnt criticising   what you are outlining is it ?    Which is a totally different subject, that is ; The Indian acknowledgement that obvious BS is said by Indians (some in important positions ) about Indian history .

 

This whole dance over 4 pages  has been  rather 'transparent '        

 

 

The video I posted actually points to something more insidious. Doesn’t require a genius to understand the motivations of  conquering parasitic entities like the European colonizers - what they did for the economy and industry, they also did with history and the education system. 

So are you saying that there was no such malicious activity done during the colonial period? And that it’s effects are just a figment of the Indian collective imagination? 

 

Edited February 15, 2021 by dwai

[dwai]

2 hours ago, Apech said:

 

In England we haven't recovered from those f**king Romans with their straight roads and hypocausts.

 

 

You’ve had 2000 years. 

 

India has barely had 72.

 

By that token the Jewish people should get over the Holocaust too? 

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, dwai said:

I don’t know 🤷‍♂️ 

so what if he did? He’s not a historian. 

 

Neither is Oak .   

 

2 hours ago, dwai said:

The video I posted actually points to something more insidious. Doesn’t require a genius to understand the motivations of  conquering parasitic entities like the European colonizers - what they did for the economy and industry, they also did with history and the education system. 

 

Yep .   Now India , Africa and South East Asia , etc   have their own  well  qualified scientists  and researchers , educated in heir own universities  .   Thats why I like  Subrahmanyam  ... but not Oak .

 

Or prefer Toby Wilkenson over  Graham Hancock    .

 

or Carl Sagan over Eric Von Daniken    .

 

 

2 hours ago, dwai said:

So are you saying that there was no such malicious activity done during the colonial period? And that it’s effects are just a figment of the Indian collective imagination? 

 

Honestly Dwai !  I have no idea how you get these assumptions from what I have written . I have even cleared them up previously .

 

But you just keep making them . 

 

< Ahem >  ... NO , I am NOT saying   there was no malicious activity done during the colonial period? And that it’s effects are just a figment of the Indian collective imagination.

 

 Go back and read my comments about THAT subject  ( the oppression of India by British Empire )  ,  I have agreed with you several times - cited 'evidence based research '   AND Indian scholars on the subject .  See above , I am not going to rehash it all again .

 

I just dont agree with some of the theories  that some Indian 'scriptural scholars'  (and some of them not even that ! )   put forward , and I have pointed out that some other Indians dont agree with them  either , from any reason to do with them being an academic or belonging to some group or following some individual with a different scriptural interpretation .

 

You talked  before about a person not being able to validly comment on or study Vedas without understanding  Sanskrit , yet I have  followed ( for a while ) many a debate and / or  argument  between Indians on the Vedas who have variant translations and meanings of Sanskrit passages.   I think Sanskrit  is a difficult language, especially Vedic Sanskrit . 

 

 

[Nungali]

20 hours ago, dwai said:

You’ve had 2000 years. 

 

India has barely had 72.

 

By that token the Jewish people should get over the Holocaust too? 

 

 

A distasteful  comparison . But anyway ,    let's then extend your comparison .

 

  First   NO   -   Indians , nor the Jews, should  NOT  just  'get over' the atrocities committed against them ( and neither should the Aboriginals )  .

 

The Jews also have a strong scriptural  tradition .  A strong 'scriptural historical ' tradition and some good scientists and a lot of interesting archaeology .   They have published some interesting research but also have some  'bent'  , alternate  and wacky  'interpreters'  that go against all the modern mainstream science there .

 

But nowhere like India does  ...  India is more rife with it  -  hence ' the Indian problem '    in  HISTORY  circles  - they don;t have a 'Jewish problem'  - actually the 'Jewish problem' , in history is that some try to deny the recent  obvious  history .

 

Let's look at Australia in a similar way ; the similar situation with the Aboriginals ; have a VERY strong  spiritual tradition, have a 'spiritual history' (oral and in art ) , have had atrocities enacted against them ,   have had a fake history projected on to them ,  have had some professionals (historians, anthropologists, archaeologists, etc  )  support them and in many cases back up their oral history , but in other cases dismiss it .   And 'this area between the two '   - between 'mythological history ' and 'modern history ' (for want of better terms )  likewise  taken advantage of to make suspect claims ;

 

 

yes, its the OOA Theory   ( oh look Evan has a new suit !  ... I liked their old look better 

 

      ) 

 

 

- a smatterin' of books and youtubes , but nothing like the popularity of   ' rad nutty stuff'  like in India .

 

There is no 'Aboriginal problem'   either on history forum . Someone did dig these guys up  and asked about validity of the idea ... I contributed by giving a little expose history of the type of BS these guys and their cronies where pushing in Australia . 

 

However , it does make a worse problem for the Aboriginals themselves  and makes their real  history ( that is trying to combat fake western history )  sometimes doubted  .

 

You increase the 'ga-ga' and the real history that is replacing the 'censored history'  is impacted   - credibility suffers .  A plethora of 'suspect declarations  based on scripture ' but not enough 'primary research ' .

 

Like the new head of the Indian Council for Historical Research( quoted above )  observed ;  " Moreover, most of the primary research is now done outside India. More academics in India seem to be keeping away from the hard grind of primary-source research, an attitude that American Sanskrit scholar Sheldon Pollock has described as “cultural genocide”. That, perhaps, is something we should be worrying about more. " 

Edited February 15, 2021 by Nungali

[Apech]

9 hours ago, dwai said:

You’ve had 2000 years. 

 

India has barely had 72.

 

By that token the Jewish people should get over the Holocaust too? 

 

That's distasteful.  I didn't say anyone should get over anything - so don't twist my words.  As a moderator you are supposed to be an example to others in posting.  So I suggest you think about your conduct.

 

 

[Daemon]

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

 

☮

 

[Apech]

1 hour ago, Daemon said:

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

 

☮

 

 

Hibera feles.

[Daemon]

Lynx pardinus? 😯

 

Spoiler

 

☮