Sugriva’s Atlas - 14000 years back

[dwai]

On 2/14/2021 at 3:38 PM, Nungali said:

 

 

out of one rabbit hole of deflection into another  

 

Or , was the OP and the OP video about Indian ancient history   off topic and this thread was about colonialism  all along ?

There cannot be a reasonable discussion of ancient Indian history without putting to rest the issue of colonial impact on ancient Indian history. The topic of colonialism comes up because people don’t know/understand/acknowledge that colonial narratives from 18th and 19th centuries still inform the “modern” narratives of ancient Indian history.

[dwai]

13 hours ago, Apech said:

 

That's distasteful.  I didn't say anyone should get over anything - so don't twist my words.  As a moderator you are supposed to be an example to others in posting.  So I suggest you think about your conduct.

 

 

It was implied in your posts — “get over the colonial impact because there is no longer a British Empire”. I was just showing you how distasteful it is for Indians to hear that - and so used the Holocaust as an example. The colonial impact on the colonized nations and people was no less reprehensible than the Holocaust. 

[dwai]

19 hours ago, Nungali said:

But nowhere like India does  ...  India is more rife with it  -  hence ' the Indian problem '    in  HISTORY  circles  - they don;t have a 'Jewish problem'  - actually the 'Jewish problem' , in history is that some try to deny the recent  obvious  history .

Maybe it is because india has a big problem at hand. The fact that people jump through such hoops to deny Indians the control of their own narrative, and deny them a place at the table which they should rightfully be at, is indicative of it.

 

No, it is not revisionism for the sake of revisionism. It is done so because our internal narrative (and yes, there are more than one) say something different from the European one. 
 

Also, looking at the difficulty you and others have in acknowledging the impact of colonialism on Indian history — that speaks volumes. For many Indians, this is not about winning  an  argument with some random people, but about our heritage and our own story. I think what is distasteful is the way in which it is contested with such vehemence. Let there be proper research and let the chips fall where they do.

And FYI, I do think that the history of the world needs serious reconsideration— most of it is from an Eurocentric perspective. For instance, “America had to be discovered”, “Africa had to be civilized”, and so on. The list of distasteful things go on and on.
 

But no, let us get back to the OP instead when it gets “uncomfortable”, right? 
 

As far as I’m concerned, there is nothing more to discuss about History with people who don’t acknowledge/recognize the impact of colonialism on how said history was manipulated to conform to the colonizers’ benefit.

 

Show me how this is being reconciled in the post-colonial world — I don’t see any change on the ground. Just tap dancing around the subject. I agree with you, but not with “x” - rather with “y”... X doesn’t have the credentials to tell us something new and worthy of consideration. 

Edited February 16, 2021 by dwai

[Nungali]

Beating a dead horse here  .... t so I will finish with ;

 

the above post is not what I am contesting here .   I cite my previous posts .

 

What I am contesting is   woo woo you tubes ,  and that  ilk ,  that even  Indian historians and the  new head of the Indian Council for Historical Research criticise  as a detriment to establishing their own history .  On this I also cite my previous  posts .

 

One can accept , acknowledge and respect the process that Indian historians and the  new head of the Indian Council for Historical Research have to undertake , but that does mean one has to accept woo woo theories that those very people discourage us from accepting .   And Oak was named as one of them .

 

Simple as that .

[dwai]

22 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Beating a dead horse here  .... t so I will finish with ;

 

the above post is not what I am contesting here .   I cite my previous posts .

 

What I am contesting is   woo woo you tubes ,  and that  ilk ,  that even  Indian historians and the  new head of the Indian Council for Historical Research criticise  as a detriment to establishing their own history .  On this I also cite my previous  posts .

 

One can accept , acknowledge and respect the process that Indian historians and the  new head of the Indian Council for Historical Research have to undertake , but that does mean one has to accept woo woo theories that those very people discourage us from accepting .   And Oak was named as one of them .

 

Simple as that .

Agreed on the woo woo part. I don’t think Oak qualifies as woo woo. As such I don’t have any issues with his theory being disproved. I’m not invested in it. I only found it interesting as a theory. He’s not a kook — has solid credentials with a graduate degree in engineering and an MBA.

 

Subhash Kak (another guy I shared a video of) is Regents Professor of computer science in oklahoma state university. Many of these guys were maliciously labeled as kooks because they didn’t belong to the “in” group of academics who control indology. 
 

Similarly there are many such researchers who are multi-disciplinarians and I dare say, genius level intellectuals. They do serious research, don’t need a degree in Sanskrit or indology studies from Harvard or Oxford, as they are natives with solid background in Sanskrit and traditional texts, astronomy etc. These guys are leagues above the Wendy Donigers of this world in sheer intellectual ability, as well as native “information”. These are the native experts, the Emic scholars, so to speak. 

[Apech]

11 hours ago, dwai said:

It was implied in your posts — “get over the colonial impact because there is no longer a British Empire”. I was just showing you how distasteful it is for Indians to hear that - and so used the Holocaust as an example. The colonial impact on the colonized nations and people was no less reprehensible than the Holocaust. 

 

It was a light hearted comment which you laughed at - so I am fairly sure you didn't take it in that way when you first read it.

[dwai]

2 hours ago, Apech said:

 

It was a light hearted comment which you laughed at - so I am fairly sure you didn't take it in that way when you first read it.

I did think you were kidding around initially. And then you equated the Indian history & colonialism issue with the Roman invasions from 2000 years ago, and your perspective on this matter (colonial impact) comes across (to me) as a denial of colonial impact.

 

Glad you clarified that you were only joking, and that you do agree that colonial forces distorted Indian history, especially ancient Indian history. We are on the same page then...
 

So with that in mind, perhaps we can also agree that new ideas and hypotheses need to be introduced in the world of indology, and perhaps ancient world history in its entirety? 

Edited February 16, 2021 by dwai

[Apech]

1 minute ago, dwai said:

I did think you were kidding around initially. And then you equated the Indian history & colonialism issue with the Roman invasions from 2000 years ago, and your perspective on this matter (colonial impact) comes across as a denial of colonial impact.

 

Glad you clarified that you were only joking, and that you do agree that colonial forces distorted Indian history, especially ancient Indian history. We are on the same page then...
 

So with that in mind, perhaps we can also agree that new ideas and hypotheses need to be introduced in the world of indology, and perhaps ancient world history in its entirety? 

 

If you want to continue discussion you will have to stop imputing all sorts of meaning and states of mind onto the other person.

 

 

[RobB]

9 hours ago, dwai said:

He’s not a kook — has solid credentials with a graduate degree in engineering and an MBA.

 

As a point of reference, as someone who works in top-tier academia (but is not an academic), I'd like to note that you can have multiple academic credentials and still be mad as a hat.

Edited February 16, 2021 by RobB

[dwai]

1 hour ago, RobB said:

 

As a point of reference, as someone who works in top-tier academia (but is not an academic), I'd like to note that you can have multiple academic credentials and still be mad as a hat.

 Agreed. That doesn't automatically imply that as a rule of thumb  

[dwai]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

 

If you want to continue discussion you will have to stop imputing all sorts of meaning and states of mind onto the other person.

 

 

What do you think happens in discussions? A says something, B infers something about A's position vis-a-vis the subject based on it.

I didn't suggest that such was your state of mind, but rather,  what I inferred/understood/what seemed to me, from your statements.

 

Just as likely possible that my statements might have made you (and others) think that I was supporting "woo woo" history, or worse. Such labels have often been applied to Native indic scholars by members of the academia, just as a way to dismiss them. Again, I'm not suggesting that you did actually think that way...but I understand that such a scenario is quite plausible. 

 

Happy to learn that I was wrong in my inference -- hence, my previous post clarifying the matter. 

 

[Daemon]

2 hours ago, Apech said:

 

If you want to continue discussion you will have to stop imputing all sorts of meaning and states of mind onto the other person.

 

 

A few other useful tips.

 

 

☮

 

[Nungali]

15 hours ago, dwai said:

Agreed on the woo woo part. I don’t think Oak qualifies as woo woo. As such I don’t have any issues with his theory being disproved. I’m not invested in it. I only found it interesting as a theory. He’s not a kook — has solid credentials with a graduate degree in engineering and an MBA.

 

 

 

Then he should stick to commenting about engineering  .   How does a degree in engineering enable one to be an 'Indic Scholar ' ?

 

What if I had a degree in engineering and started using that as a qualification to interpret Vedas  .... you would be outraged !

 

 

 

Quote

 

Subhash Kak (another guy I shared a video of) is Regents Professor of computer science in oklahoma state university. Many of these guys were maliciously labeled as kooks because they didn’t belong to the “in” group of academics who control indology. 

 

 

 

No, it was because they did things like  things like  claimed  that the Taj Mahal was once a Shiva temple

 

Now you are going to divide up THE INDIAN scholars  into the ones that dont agree with your kooky youtubes as  the nasty 'in group',  sell-outs to western culture .  And  the ones with a degree in a totally another field, that make kooky youtubes ... that YOU happen to like ....  as valid scholars   ?

 

 

Way to go  ! 

 

Quote

Similarly there are many such researchers who are multi-disciplinarians and I dare say, genius level intellectuals. They do serious research, don’t need a degree in Sanskrit or indology studies from Harvard or Oxford, as they are natives with solid background in Sanskrit and traditional texts, astronomy etc. These guys are leagues above the Wendy Donigers of this world in sheer intellectual ability, as well as native “information”. These are the native experts, the Emic scholars, so to speak. 

 

 

'Native experts'    'Emic scholars '    ....   who claim  that the Taj Mahal was once a Shiva temple ?

 

You added 'so to speak' which is a way of saying 'I am going to fudge on the following meaning' .

 

Etic is scholastic approach ;   study the group from an outside perspective  (  previous writings and research,  various studies like genetics, linguistics, archaeology,  etc . )

 

Emic is to have an inside approach ; study the people and what they think ,  " How they perceive and categorize the world, their rules for behaviour, what has meaning for them, and how they imagine and explain things. "  ....   so the scholar gets a different view on what these people think  ... it is not just accepting the view of those people as truth or accurate  as part of the research ... the natives are not  doing or making the research .  So there are not  ' Emic scholars '   Emic isn't a scholar it is a type  of field research and ways of obtaining results .

 

"The emic approach investigates how local people think…".^[2] How they perceive and categorize the world, their rules for behavior, what has meaning for them, and how they imagine and explain things. "The etic (scientist-oriented) approach shifts the focus from local observations, categories, explanations, and interpretations to those of the anthropologist. The etic approach realizes that members of a culture often are too involved in what they are doing... to interpret their cultures impartially. When using the etic approach, the ethnographer emphasizes what he or she considers important. "

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emic_and_etic

 

...  so to speak .

 

 

 

.

 

Edited February 16, 2021 by Nungali

[Nungali]

P N Oak is a classic example ;

 

Purushottam Nagesh (P. N.) Oak (2 March 1917 – 4 December 2007) was a historical revisionist from India.^[1]

Among his prominent claims were that Christianity and Islam are both derivatives of Hinduism; that Vatican City, Kaaba, Westminster Abbey and the Taj Mahal were once Hindu temples dedicated to Shiva; and that the Papacy was originally a Vedic Priesthood. Their reception in Indian popular culture have been noted by observers of contemporary Indian society. He ran an 'Institute for Rewriting Indian History' in the 1980s which published a quarterly periodical called Itihas Patrika dedicated to fringe causes; he had also written numerous books, some of which have even lead to court cases in a bid to alter the mainstream history narrative

 

In 2000 India's Supreme Court dismissed Oak's petition to declare that a Hindu king had built the Taj Mahal by saying he had a "bee in his bonnet" about the Taj.^[10] Till date, as of 2017, several court cases about Taj Mahal being a Hindu temple have been inspired by Oak's theory.^[2][3] In August 2017, Archaeological Survey of India stated there was no evidence to suggest the monument ever housed a temple

 

( Indian Supreme Court is  also part of 'in group that controls Indology'   now  ? )

 

" Srinivas Aravamudan notes Oak to be a 'mythistorian' whose work resorted to exploiting comparative philology in the generation of delusional etymologies—associating Sanskrit sound-alikes with foreign terms such as Vatican=vatika (hermitage), Christianity=Krishna-niti (the way of Krishna), Abraham as an aberration of Brahma -- to purvey an Islamophobic and anti-Christian agenda under the covers of Hindutva."

 

" Oak's theories have been noted to have found a popular following among right-wing Hindu factions in a bid to wage politico-religious battles.^[22][23][24]Tapan Raychaudhuri has referred to him as "a 'historian' much respected by the Sangh Parivar."^[25] Incidentally, one of his books "Some Blunders in Indian Historical Research" was banned from the Parliament's library by the Speaker of the Lok Sabha.^[26]"

"

 

India is rife with them !

 

 

 

[Nungali]

And to show those who dont know  ... this isnt just my opinion ... India is rife with it !

 

 

New Delhi—The most widely discussed talk at the Indian Science Congress, a government-funded annual jamboree held in Jalandhar in January, wasn't about space exploration or information technology, areas in which India has made rapid progress. Instead, the talk celebrated a story in the Hindu epic Mahabharata about a woman who gave birth to 100 children, citing it as evidence that India's ancient Hindu civilization had developed advanced reproductive technologies. Just as surprising as the claim was the distinguished pedigree of the scientist who made it: chemist G. Nageshwar Rao, vice-chancellor of Andhra University in Visakhapatnam. "Stem cell research was done in this country thousands of years ago," Rao said

 

His talk was widely met with ridicule. But Rao is hardly the only Indian scientist to make such claims. In recent years, "experts" have said ancient Indians had spacecraft, the internet, and nuclear weapons—long before Western science came on the scene. "

 

 

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/02/hindu-nationalists-claim-ancient-indians-had-airplanes-stem-cell-technology-and

 

 

 

I just dont understand why  some Indians , who are rightfully proud and patriotic of their country , ruin their  real history with this woo woo history ?

 

The real issues confronting Indian history

 

Why not concentrate on  the  genuine advances ancient India contributed in

 

  "  ... mathematics, astronomy, town planning, water management, agriculture or medicine (including surgery)? Why does no Indian university offer a degree or PhD programme in history of science? With very few exceptions, Indian historians have ignored this wealth of intellectual and material developments, yet claim to give us a faithful picture of India—an India which, they would have us believe, failed to produce any useful knowledge. But such was precisely the assertion of nineteenth-century colonial historians!  "

 

" Epigraphy and manuscriptology are languishing too: in a generation or two, no one in India will be able to read any of the millions of manuscripts dealing with every topic under the tropical sun. In fact, history as an academic discipline in India is in poor health: few talented students are drawn to it, the average competence of teachers at school or college is unsatisfactory, and there are major problems with both content and pedagogy. It is not just the rote learning plaguing most of our schooling; it is also the undue emphasis on dates, kings, wars and dynasties rather than on a genuine understanding of India’s past, society and culture. Uninspiring and often outdated textbooks haven’t helped; in my view, education must move away from textbook-centric pedagogy to shift the focus back on the teacher. It is for her or him to keep abreast of recent developments, find innovative methods of teaching, offer multiple viewpoints and perspectives, use old ballads, dramas, multimedia material (including films and games), involve the students in mini research projects or take them on a trip to some museum, monument or heritage site. This is the biggest challenge facing history in India: to show students what a fascinating field it is—because history is ultimately about understanding ourselves."

 

https://www.dnaindia.com/analysis/column-the-real-issues-confronting-indian-history-2088702

 

 

[dwai]

The fact that you're raising the very bogeys that I've already highlighted speaks volumes. PN Oak is not the same as Nilesh Oak. They are not related -- kind of like Joseph Smith and Huston Smith are not related either.  

 

Yes, there are kooks out there -- that doesn't mean every independent researcher is one. As to why someone might be qualified to research their own history and civilization? Do I need to say any more? I'd venture to say that my Sanskrit professor in highschool knew more/better Sanskrit than most of the Sanskrit PhDs in Harvard and Oxford. 

 

Just as emic scholars might be accused of (in many cases, falsely) of not being unbiased in their work, etic scholars (such as has been seen right from the beginning of western Indology studies) have deliberately and maliciously distorted their own studies -- due to imperialist agendas. This is a proven fact.  Also what happens consequently is an entire chain of erroneous studies being churned out, based on very wrong data to start with. Take AIT for example -- the fact is, that until recently, AIT was very aggressively defended by the "etic" group -- and only after new evidence came out which they couldn't possibly deny, they grudgingly changed their tune to AMT. Now, with newer discoveries happening in the field of archaeology, Geology, etc, they will have to either change their theory again -- there's now "not a mass migration, but many gradual migrations. The proof is there for anyone with an open mind to see that even AMT doesn't hold water.

 

Yes, so there are all kinds of revisionists -- to simply cast aside all researchers, as a result, is kind of silly. In any case, many of these researchers are being recognized by the Indian government for valuable work -- to simply reject revision because it threatens to put the entrenched group of academics out of business, is not logic or science, it is a basic survival instinct. The field of Indology has been extremely vitiated due to the very interferences I've mentioned earlier in other posts. This is indeed a political battle, as much as it is an ideological one. 

 

 

[Nungali]

They are related  .... they are brothers in woo woo .

 

Of course it is silly to cast aside all researchers  .  Who was doing that ?

 

I cited qualified Indian researchers on their opinion of some  researchers  and the whole issue of research in India - by Indians  .

 

 

 

 

 

On Sunday morning, a small group of acutely embarrassed Indian scientists and research scholars gathered at the Indian Institute of Science in Bengaluru to protest against the irrational statements made by some speakers at the Indian Science Congress underway in Punjab.

On Friday, Andhra University vice-chancellor G Nageswara Rao claimed at one session that the Kauravas from the Mahabharata were test-tube babies, that Ravana, from the Ramayana, possessed 24 aircraft and that Sri Lanka at the time had airports. Rao is a professor of inorganic chemistry.

 

At the same session, KJ Krishnan, a scientist at a centre in Tamil Nadu , said that Isaac Newton and Albert Einstein were both wrong and that gravitational waves would soon be rechristened “Narendra Modi waves”, reported The Times of India.

 

Recent editions of the Indian Science Congress have witnessed similarly unfounded claims. But this time, the irrationality has “gone beyond all limits”, said Prajval Shastri, a retired professor from the Indian Institute of Astrophysics who joined the protest on Sunday.

 

https://scroll.in/article/908392/chauvanistic-claims-embarrassed-indian-scientists-protest-irrational-comments-at-science-congress

 

 

Indian scientists embarrassed after academics at a national science event made bizarre claims like ancient Hindus invented stem cell research

 

https://www.businessinsider.in/indian-scientists-embarrassed-after-academics-at-a-national-science-event-made-bizarre-claims-like-ancient-hindus-invented-stem-cell-research/articleshow/67431288.cms

 

 

How many pseudoscientists does it take to embarrass India?

https://sabrangindia.in/article/how-many-pseudoscientists-does-it-take-embarrass-india

[dwai]

I already agreed that there are crazies out there. I bet there that sort everywhere. Certainly in the US we saw our share of such worthies in the recent past. 
 

But don’t try to paint everyone with the same brush. You’ll get mighty tired, as they are legion  
 

In any case, have you read about the new excavations going on in Sinauli in North India? 
 

The video is in Hindi, but slides/text are in English. Sinauli was discovered around 2006 and full fledged excavations started in 2018. Copper weapons, chariots etc have been found dated between 5000-4000 years ago. 
 

 

[Nungali]

I have been following he ASI research for some time . Its regularly reported on history forum

 

here is an English update

 

 

 

 

This is around the same time  of the Harrapan  colony / 'trading post'   in Central Asia .   They also mined lapis lazuli  and some of it ended up all the way over in Egypt ,  perhaps by a sea route on Harrapan trading vessels .  I doubt such a venture could be successful without  large organisation  and protection ie  ;  a complex society and 'warriors' .

[dwai]

28 minutes ago, Nungali said:

I have been following he ASI research for some time . Its regularly reported on history forum

 

here is an English update

 

 

 

 

This is around the same time  of the Harrapan  colony / 'trading post'   in Central Asia .   They also mined lapis lazuli  and some of it ended up all the way over in Egypt ,  perhaps by a sea route on Harrapan trading vessels .  I doubt such a venture could be successful without  large organisation  and protection ie  ;  a complex society and 'warriors' .

Will be interesting to see what materializes from this.  

 

There's a new documentary show (in Hindi) on Discovery India that covers this specific site. Trying to get access to it -- isn't available in the US yet. 

[Apech]

52 minutes ago, Nungali said:

I have been following he ASI research for some time . Its regularly reported on history forum

 

here is an English update

 

 

 

 

This is around the same time  of the Harrapan  colony / 'trading post'   in Central Asia .   They also mined lapis lazuli  and some of it ended up all the way over in Egypt ,  perhaps by a sea route on Harrapan trading vessels .  I doubt such a venture could be successful without  large organisation  and protection ie  ;  a complex society and 'warriors' .

 

 

2000 BC note.

[Nungali]

1 minute ago, Apech said:

 

 

2000 BC note.

 

 

Wot  ?  

[Apech]

1 minute ago, Nungali said:

 

 

Wot  ?  

 

I'm fairly sure we were told this was 7000 BC - but hey.

 

A site like this makes perfect sense really.

 

 

[Nungali]

2 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

I'm fairly sure we were told this was 7000 BC - but hey.

 

Not by  ASI   ?    ( Archaeological Survey of India   project )

 

The dates I have seen range from 3,800 to 4,000  ya . 

 

2 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

A site like this makes perfect sense really.

 

 

 

 

 

Why ? 

 

 

IE   invasion chariots   ? 

 

 

 

 

.... just joking        

[dwai]

9 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

I'm fairly sure we were told this was 7000 BC - but hey.

 

A site like this makes perfect sense really.

 

 

7000-7500 BCE is for some early Harappa sites.