Damo Mitchell? tell me what you think

[Cleansox]

8 hours ago, Antares said:

 

I am a little familiar with YuXian Pai methods (initial stage only) and there are NO sitting methods at the outset of practice. All exercises are quite dynamic but on later stage there is static exercise and from what I heared and if I am not mistaken the sitting is done at a much later stage.

Thanks for the description of that school. Could I insert here that just because one school does things in a certain way, that doesn't mean it is the only way? 

My school also focus on dynamic and static standing methods in a way similar to what you describe here, some of the static ones can be done in seated position as well but the seated versions are less time-efficient and not that relevant for a householder. 

8 hours ago, Antares said:

Also I would like to point out that all initial methods work with preheaven channels (not nourishing yuan qi yet).

So you are talking about opening the eight extraordinary meridians here? 

In Damo Mitchell's material, that is qigong/neigong. That which is specific for Zhong-Lu Nei Dan comes later, this is a process that comes before the four stages that you posted about some way back (or, depending on interpretation, the tongguan might be seen as the first step of the "laying the foundations", a step that overlaps between qigong and neidan). 

8 hours ago, Antares said:

I do not think I need to assert rights to correct methods here or to blame someone and to have argument with you. We are talking about Damo' teaching. 

It is a discussion forum, so we discuss ideas. That means that if you put forth an idea that I disagree with, I will question it in a way where you have a chance to go further in to it. If you can support it, I might change my mind. 

In this case, that didn't happen. 

 

I can agree that Damo seems to put an emphasis on seated practices in the imagery of his books, that doesn't mean it reflects his over all teaching (which I know nothing about since I am not a student of his). 

[Antares]

"in this case, this did not happen"

Let's say at this time you can not comprehend what chineese masters say. If you just disagree with them or with some of them then bring quotes from classic texts that support your idea. From my perspective as I already said in some northern schools or branches sitting can be practised at the very outset but you must be aware that sitting gives rise to Yin. 

Read here https://all-dao.com/dazuo-meditation.html

 

You disagree with this? 

Edited March 20, 2021 by Antares

[Antares]

6 hours ago, Vajra Fist said:

 

Just on this point, you probably won't get much of an answer here as Damo has requested students of the online school not discuss material from within the syllabus on public forums. I'd think though that you could probably get good answers to your questions (which are waaay over my head - I'm learning his taiji but not the neigong) from his book, or else drop him an email directly. 

 

I suppose that the rule of the thumb is to say name of your  teacher and school, but if person is even prohibitted to say this and also are prohibitted to read classic texts and discuss it, then it is something wrong with such the school

[Antares]

"in Damo Mitchell' material that is qigong/neigong"

the article about difference between qigong and neidan https://all-dao.com/difference-qigong-alchemy.html

[thelerner]

14 hours ago, Vajra Fist said:

 

Just on this point, you probably won't get much of an answer here as Damo has requested students of the online school not discuss material from within the syllabus on public forums. I'd think though that you could probably get good answers to your questions (which are waaay over my head - I'm learning his taiji but not the neigong) from his book, or else drop him an email directly. 

I see some wisdom there, in that you don't want pieces of information to get all 'telephone' game-  Spread out and mis-repeated or done in the wrong steps.  

 

Maybe its my American conceit, but I don't see anything wrong with using better English words to describe processes to English speakers.  Especially in the beginning and intermediate stages.  Some people seek the scholarly route and that's great, but for those looking to experience and learn a system, foreign words are less important than the teaching.  

[manitou]

On 2/12/2021 at 8:23 AM, forestofemptiness said:

I've noticed over the years here (way back when it was the Tao Bums) is that there is often a focus on unusual powers. But there are a number of ancillary questions one could ask:

 

1. Does X have unusual powers?

2. If X does, is X willing to teach others how to develop them?

3. If so, how much time and effort is required to develop them?

4. Have others followed this regime to the fruition?

5. Do I have the time and discipline to follow such a regime?

6. Is developing unusual powers worth the time and effort?

 

Actually, these might be worth considering in reverse order. 

 

 

 

 

 

Side roads, perhaps.

[Cleansox]

On 2021-03-20 at 7:26 AM, Antares said:

 

You disagree with this? 

I would say, as I have before in this thread, that just because Nei Dan tradition says that "daoists that sit in oblivion and Buddhists that die while in a state of samadhi will create a yin shen", that doesn’t say that it is not possible to work with a Ming method while seated. 

And when you use all-dao as a source, that only stands for their opinion, and I am eagerly awaiting a validation of this point of view from an independent source. 

 

Fun fact, Damo writes that overfocus on standing postures makes the practitioner too Yin (A comprehensive guide..., page 376).

The context is not yinshen vs yangshen though. 

 

Another reference, Yinshi zi jingzuo fa, in Wang Mu Foundations of internal alchemy, actually start from sitting in quiescence, getting a result that Wang Mu correllate to clearing the Breath and clearing the vessels. 

Edited March 22, 2021 by Cleansox
Added even more stuff.

[Antares]

On 21.03.2021 at 11:50 AM, Cleansox said:

I would say, as I have before in this thread, that just because Nei Dan tradition says that "daoists that sit in oblivion and Buddhists that die while in a state of samadhi will create a yin shen", that doesn’t say that it is not possible to work with a Ming method while seated. 

And when you use all-dao as a source, that only stands for their opinion, and I am eagerly awaiting a validation of this point of view from an independent source. 

 

What is "their opinion"? It' s not "their" but it is the excerpt from the book of "Teacher of Single Yang".  This is southern schools approach. As Damo says that he is adherer of a northern school then the approach can be quite different there and as we all already know they start off with Xing cultivation first. As for Wang Mu' description of the practice we need to understand what he is writing about. 

https://www.goldenelixir.com/jindan/wm_shangde_xiade.html

Quote

At the stage of ☞ "laying the foundations," there are differences of initial conditions, age, and physical constitution. The practices, therefore, differ according to each individual. With regard to this point, the alchemical texts distinguish between "superior virtue" (shangde) and "inferior virtue" (xiade). "Superior virtue" refers to childhood and young age; "inferior virtue" refers to adulthood and old age.

 

Here he says that "superior virtue" and "inferior virtue" correlate with Ming level of an individual 

 

Quote

According to the principles of alchemy, at a young age the human body grows like a young sprout. Borrowing a term from the Daode jing (Book of the Way and its Virtue), this is called "superior virtue." Spirit and Breath are abundant, and there is no need of performing any practice to build the foundations. After growth and maturity, Essence, Breath, and Spirit become consumed and should be replenished. In the alchemical practice, this is referred to as "inferior virtue": one must provide what is missing.

An alchemical poem says:

"Superior virtue has no doing," and you enter the practice of Xing (Nature):
is there any need of repairing or harmonizing what is damaged or full?

The Cantong qi says:

"Superior virtue has no doing":
it does not use examining and seeking.
"Inferior virtue does":
its operation does not rest.

 

INFERIOR VIRTUE DOES. Does means DOING. If you have not replenished your Ming your "no doing" sitting will be pointless and harmful. At least one needs to open up specific alchemical channels prior to sitting. There is the certain alchemical channel which is to be OPENED prior to sitting and this is described in southerns schools texts. You will not be able to open it while sitting and this comes from body/energy mechanics. If you know these practices in Damo' school then disclose it please. From what I read in his book and I repeat it again and again, Damo teaches sitting as main method combining it with qigong and dao yin which have small relation to neidan if any at all 

   

[MIchael80]

2 hours ago, Antares said:

 

What is "their opinion"? It' s not "their" but it is the excerpt from the book of "Teacher of Single Yang".  This is southern schools approach. As Damo says that he is adherer of a northern school then the approach can be quite different there and as we all already know they start off with Xing cultivation first. As for Wang Mu' description of the practice we need to understand what he is writing about. 

https://www.goldenelixir.com/jindan/wm_shangde_xiade.html

 

Here he says that "superior virtue" and "inferior virtue" correlate with Ming level of an individual 

 

 

INFERIOR VIRTUE DOES. Does means DOING. If you have not replenished your Ming your "no doing" sitting will be pointless and harmful. At least one needs to open up specific alchemical channels prior to sitting. There is the certain alchemical channel which is to be OPENED prior to sitting and this is described in southerns schools texts. You will not be able to open it while sitting and this comes from body/energy mechanics. If you know these practices in Damo' school then disclose it please. From what I read in his book and I repeat it again and again, Damo teaches sitting as main method combining it with qigong and dao yin which have small relation to neidan if any at all 

   

This is all true Antares ... BUT ...you as anyone else coming from the daode scholl is screaming "disclose this, show that" etc. BUT no one of daode has

disclosed  even a hundreths part of what Damo has disclosed.

Even the name "teacher of single yang " is a pseudonym for outsiders.

 

Why are these southern school and true ming methods almost extinct? 

Because of this ultra secrecy attitude. 

 

The daobum freeform (northern  method) has disclosed more in his posts here (while still keeping a lot secret) than daode ever has. (At least in english)

It is the Damo Mitchells, Wang Lipings, Nathan Brines that keep the northern method of alchemy alive and florishing.

 

With you daode guys even a conversation is not possible because everything is a secret.

Out of this will come only bad fruit.

[Cleansox]

3 hours ago, Antares said:

 

What is "their opinion"? It' s not "their" but it is the excerpt from the book of "Teacher of Single Yang".  This is southern schools approach.

No. Until you have a quote from another source not directly dependent on that lineage, it is just the opinion of one lineage, stated to provide support for that lineages methods. 

 

I am asking if you have any independent, preferably classic, sources that validates that view, so it can be seen as a generalised principle/truth. 

3 hours ago, Antares said:

 

INFERIOR VIRTUE DOES. Does means DOING. If you have not replenished your Ming your "no doing" sitting will be pointless and harmful.

I haven't disagreed with this. 

But you have not shown any support (see my point above) that the "doing" cannot be performed while seated. 

3 hours ago, Antares said:

At least one needs to open up specific alchemical channels prior to sitting. There is the certain alchemical channel which is to be OPENED prior to sitting and this is described in southerns schools texts. You will not be able to open it while sitting and this comes from body/energy mechanics.

Ah, now you are referring to a text 😁. 

Please, quote and a reference please. That would be really helpful! 

 

But, opening the channels are not the only aspect of the stage we are discussing, there is also the replenishing. Are you also saying that the replenishing cannot be done seated, or can it be done seated and this discussion has really only have been about the clearing the channels stage (which Damo Mitchell is discussing, using moving, standing, and seated methods) ? 

3 hours ago, Antares said:

If you know these practices in Damo' school then disclose it please.

Since I have no relation to this school, I do not know what they have on their curriculum. 

I cannot see these methods in Damo's public material, compared to what I do there is a gap in his method at about the stage I believe we are discussing, but that is not because he teaches seated methods (and he mentions moving and standing practices in his curriculum as well, so he should have his base covered). 

3 hours ago, Antares said:

From what I read in his book and I repeat it again and again, Damo teaches sitting as main method combining it with qigong and dao yin which have small relation to neidan if any at all 

Ah, this is the hard one. 

Who has the right to define what is Nei Dan" when traditions have branched out over more than a millennia? 

 

But if you refer to the reversal process coming from Zhan Boduans legacy, sure, you seems to be right. 

 

Question: Is there a universal agreement in daoist circles in China that this is the only true Nei Dan practice? 

I haven't read up on that so I would accept you knowledge of that subject. 

 

There seems to be a few teachers with lineages and stuff that use the term differently, but they might all be scammers and frauds. 

[Antares]

26 minutes ago, Cleansox said:

I haven't disagreed with this. 

But you have not shown any support (see my point above) that the "doing" cannot be performed while seated. 

 

All texts represent methods symbolically, not in plain words. You need to have destiny to find a knowlegeable teacher and question him. No one is going to prove you anything. And there is no need for that. Huge part of teaching is transmitted orally. As I already mentioned in some branches they can do sitting from the very outset but one must be aware that sitting gives rise to Yin and in this case the method is to let Yin culminate until the Yang is born. This path might have a lot of side effects and I personally would not practice such the method. But it has right to exist. Daosit have saying "it would be a shame to let the Yin culminate but not to have Yang born". 

Quote

The southwest is direction of Kun ☷, the land in which Fu  is reborn after the last day of the month, and in which Yin culminates and generates Yang.⁽¹⁾ In the human being, it is the time of the initial movement after quiescence culminates. This movement is the time of the emergence of the Great Medicine.

https://www.goldenelixir.com/jindan/texts_wuzhen_pian_7_comm.html

 

If you are familiar with any other sitting method which produces Yang then let us know provoding support for that statement that "sitting produces Yang". 

45 minutes ago, Cleansox said:

Since I have no relation to this school, I do not know what they have on their curriculum. 

I cannot see these methods in Damo's public material, compared to what I do there is a gap in his method at about the stage I believe we are discussing, but that is not because he teaches seated methods (and he mentions moving and standing practices in his curriculum as well, so he should have his base covered). 

 

In his book he writes that Neidan is done by sitting combining it with qigong and dao yin. I have never seen in texts that neidan is about practising qigong, dao yin and sitting. What does mean "so he should have his base covered"? So we have no texts to cover the idea that sitting and qigong ca be considered as Neidan practise. You always asking me to bring you classic texts but you provided zero texts from your side. 

 

[Wilhelm]

4 hours ago, Antares said:

In his book he writes that Neidan is done by sitting combining it with qigong and dao yin.

Nope 

 

He teaches Dao Yin and Qigong as prerequisites to Nei Dan, but not as part of Nei Dan.  I've got the books if you want to cross-reference the misquote

[Antares]

35 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

Nope 

 

He teaches Dao Yin and Qigong as prerequisites to Nei Dan, but not as part of Nei Dan.  I've got the books if you want to cross-reference the misquote

Ok. The sitting is only the method then. So is that the method for "Laying the foundation" stage?

[Wilhelm]

20 minutes ago, Antares said:

Ok. The sitting is only the method then. So is that the method for "Laying the foundation" stage?

The chapter on sitting isn't a method in itself, it's just teaching proper posture for sustained seated work, as well as various mudras.

 

To answer your question, where are you quoting 'laying the foundation' from?

[Antares]

21 hours ago, MIchael80 said:

This is all true Antares ... BUT ...you as anyone else coming from the daode scholl is screaming "disclose this, show that" etc. BUT no one of daode has

disclosed  even a hundreths part of what Damo has disclosed.

Even the name "teacher of single yang " is a pseudonym for outsiders.

 

Why are these southern school and true ming methods almost extinct? 

Because of this ultra secrecy attitude. 

 

The daobum freeform (northern  method) has disclosed more in his posts here (while still keeping a lot secret) than daode ever has. (At least in english)

It is the Damo Mitchells, Wang Lipings, Nathan Brines that keep the northern method of alchemy alive and florishing.

 

With you daode guys even a conversation is not possible because everything is a secret.

Out of this will come only bad fruit.

 

All that glitters is not gold. 

On my path I met dozens of people who considered themselves as teachers. They teach what they learned from their teachers who considered themselves teachers as well. And of course, all that was not costless. I payed money for that stuff and I spent time and I put my energy in that stuff. I will give you an example. When in Ireland I studied yoga, qigong, also I did Aikido, and I began exploring Daoism and questioned my Sensei about this and that. He laughed at me saying that I like asking question and that my mind is deceiving me because it wants to know this and that... He said "I gave you already everything... just do it". But in fact he teached corrupted neigong which he picked up in USA from taichi master who learned it in HongKong. I spent years for that stuff... No one from that group got any results. When I asked Sensei about Daode he laughed and said they want my money and that they deceive people. But he did not even know what is Ming and what is the method of Ming. But he teached openly without secrecy. Also he teached taichi forms without internal exercises.  Another story . I practised Bon  there and teacher (women from Tibetan lineage) showed me breath exercises and I did every day. When I started feeling bad (I felt pain in lungs) she said she cannot help me. She could not even see my energy. When her teacher came to our place to hold the seminar I asked him about Xing and Ming and he refused to answer question saying that he is very busy. And this is quite famous teacher in the West. I can tell you even more stories about such the "teachers". Now I personally just more attentive to what I learn and what I do. I am not "daode guy", you are mistaken. Chinese teaching is not Buddhism and not "yoga classes" where instructors teach you openly.  What is practical Daoism about? People want to get Immortallity. Chinese masters say: if you want to  be immortal you can come to us and probably you get something from us but may be not. That' westerners mindset philosofy that you can buy something in one click. Juat pay online, click the button and immortal master will answer all your questions online 24/7. 

Teacher of Single Yang came to Russia and many people saw him in China. The same for teacher of Yuxian Pai.

Here on Daobum was the ukranian guy Vitaly Lischina who took Daode materials and mixed it with qigong and sold it as Neidan. When Daode people started question him about methods he banned them on his forum and finally he went to London to teach people fake dao there. Now he is somewhere in USA teaching calisthenics and is starring in commercials. But in Ukraine and London he teached openly everyone. No one saw his teacher and no one knew him in China.

As for Freeform I see no problem with him. If he can answer questions and explain what he is doing and why.  

The issue is why you want to get more information? Probably you want  to get some ideas how to mix southern method with your own methods which you are already doing? Recently I got PM where a bum asked me how to get in touch with daode people. He wanted to ask them about something how... to mix his stuff with southern schools methods. So he just wanted to get info from them and mix it with something else. Of course, it does not work this way. All teaching is based on "heart to heart" transmission and you must be in close relations with your teacher. But many basics theroies can be shared openly and of course I am talking about basics.   

Edited March 28, 2021 by Antares

[Master Logray]

3 hours ago, Antares said:

Chinese teaching is not Buddhism and not "yoga classes" where instructors teach you openly.  What is practical Daoism about? People want to get Immortallity. Chinese masters say: if you want to  be immortal you can come to us and probably you get something from us but may be not. That' westerners mindset philosofy that you can buy something in one click. Juat pay online, click the button and immortal master will answer all your questions online 24/7.

 

It is very well said and true.

[Antares]

17 hours ago, Wilhelm said:

To answer your question, where are you quoting 'laying the foundation' from?

 

I provided the link already: https://www.goldenelixir.com/jindan/wm_laying_the_foundations.html

The expression "laying the foundations" is a metaphor often used in the alchemical texts. To build a house, one must first lay the foundations. Only when the foundations are stable and firm is it possible to set pillars and beams in place, and arrange bricks and tiles. Refining the Internal Elixir is based on the same principle.

 

The alchemical practice, however, is concerned with the human body. At the initial stage of the Neidan process, therefore, one should first replenish the basic constituents of the body, so that they conform to the requirements of the practice. Only then is it possible to undertake the stages of alchemical refinement proper. Until the basic constituents do not conform to those requirements, the body's functions should be restored and augmented by means of inner practices, so that Essence, Breath, and Spirit can reach a state of abundance. All this pertains to the stage of "laying the foundations."

Taoism deems Essence, Breath, and Spirit to be the major components of life, and the alchemical texts call them the Three Treasures (sanbao). If the Three Treasures are healthy and flourishing, the body is strong; if they are drained and depleted, illnesses develop. When the alchemical texts speak of refining the Elixir, they actually mean refining the Three Treasures. Chen Zhixu (1290-ca. 1368) says in his Jindan dayao (Great Essentials of the Golden Elixir):

Essence, Breath, and Spirit affect one another. When they follow the course, they form the human being; when they invert the course, they form the Elixir.

 

But I like this one more than the previous one: 

 

[Wilhelm]

13 minutes ago, Antares said:

 

I provided the link already: https://www.goldenelixir.com/jindan/wm_laying_the_foundations.html

The expression "laying the foundations" is a metaphor often used in the alchemical texts. To build a house, one must first lay the foundations. Only when the foundations are stable and firm is it possible to set pillars and beams in place, and arrange bricks and tiles. Refining the Internal Elixir is based on the same principle.

 

The alchemical practice, however, is concerned with the human body. At the initial stage of the Neidan process, therefore, one should first replenish the basic constituents of the body, so that they conform to the requirements of the practice. Only then is it possible to undertake the stages of alchemical refinement proper. Until the basic constituents do not conform to those requirements, the body's functions should be restored and augmented by means of inner practices, so that Essence, Breath, and Spirit can reach a state of abundance. All this pertains to the stage of "laying the foundations."

Taoism deems Essence, Breath, and Spirit to be the major components of life, and the alchemical texts call them the Three Treasures (sanbao). If the Three Treasures are healthy and flourishing, the body is strong; if they are drained and depleted, illnesses develop. When the alchemical texts speak of refining the Elixir, they actually mean refining the Three Treasures. Chen Zhixu (1290-ca. 1368) says in his Jindan dayao (Great Essentials of the Golden Elixir):

Essence, Breath, and Spirit affect one another. When they follow the course, they form the human being; when they invert the course, they form the Elixir.

 

But I like this one more than the previous one: 

 

Ok.  I think the meaning transfers over well, but generally wouldn't encourage dot-joining comparisons between Fabrizio Pregadio's work and Damo Mitchell's school simply on the basis that they're both speaking on Northern Daoism.  I know you have your own opinions about Northern Daoism but I feel the need to re-iterate that many different approaches come from this one tradition.  Wang LiPings methods - for example - look almost nothing like Damo's, at least at the foundation stages.

 

That said, Damo's methods for 'laying the foundations' of alchemy are contained both in the weekly program of his online course and a separate module called 'Foundations of Alchemy', which I am actually progressing through as we speak.  

 

Though all the methods are indeed seated (as I believe all true Nei Dan methods are), I also feel the need to re-iterate that they are taught within a wider spectrum of moving and standing exercises including Qigong, Dao Yin, and Internal Martial Arts.  I know these disclaimers might seem like a bit much, but I am already familiar with your thesis that 'Northern Daoism is only sitting and therefore is too Yin', so I am trying to actively avoid this point of conversation again 😅.

[damdao]

4 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

 

Though all the methods are indeed seated (as I believe all true Nei Dan methods are).

 

Not responding personally to Wilhem, but in order to widen the research framework for people who are reading this stuff for the first time it could be useful to keep in mind that there are northern lineages consisting only in moving neidan. In others lineages (some Longmen and Yuxian) you have moving, walking, sleeping and sitting exercises and even in others (southern) you have static yoga-like postures.  So, I think it is better not to restrict the neidan training to seated processes

.And we are only speaking about Quan Zhen offshoots here, Zhengyi uses alchemical exercises too but in a ritual context.

[Antares]

5 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

I know you have your own opinions about Northern Daoism but I feel the need to re-iterate that many different approaches come from this one tradition.  Wang LiPings methods - for example - look almost nothing like Damo's, at least at the foundation stages.

 

That said, Damo's methods for 'laying the foundations' of alchemy are contained both in the weekly program of his online course and a separate module called 'Foundations of Alchemy', which I am actually progressing through as we speak.  

 

Though all the methods are indeed seated

 

I suppose that both northern and southern schools have a lot of similarities but just making different emphasis in practice. On "Laying the Foundation stage" both Xing and Ming should be cultivated because they are interrelated indeed

I doubt it that seated methods have relation to Neidan if you talk about Dazuo or similar methods. The purpose of Dazuo is to sink heart-mind down and it is one of the preparatory method the same as tree stance or IMA stances. And by no any means seated methods should prevail over standing or dynamic ones. But I came across another definition of "Laying the Foundation"  stage here

https://www.goldenelixir.com/quotes/quote_44_lym.html

 

Quote

 

What is the meaning of laying the foundations for refining oneself? "Oneself" means your selfish desires, your egoism, and your selfhood. "Foundations" means having an actual ground, a root. . . .

Let me try to illustrate the essentials of "refining oneself" and of "laying the foundations." . . . Strengthening and fortifying the Yin essence and doing no harm to one's spirit and breath is laying the foundations. Casting away one's own person and seeing the self and the objects as empty is laying the foundations.

 

 In this case, yes, strengthening the Yin until it culminates 

[Wilhelm]

13 minutes ago, damdao said:

Not responding personally to Wilhem, but in order to widen the research framework for people who are reading this stuff for the first time it could be useful to keep in mind that there are northern lineages consisting only in moving neidan.

To be clear, do you mean to say there are schools that purport to complete the Dan itself using ONLY moving exercises?  Or were you saying that there are schools who only use moving methods, but that their aim is not to create the Dan (I.e. there are schools that practice moving Qigong but not seated work).  I have never heard this term moving Nei Dan, and so am confused (which happens a lot, as my knowledge on Daoism is very limited).  

 

9 minutes ago, Antares said:

I doubt it that seated methods have relation to Neidan if you talk about Dazuo or similar methods. The purpose of Dazuo is to sink heart-mind down and it is one of the preparatory method the same as tree stance or IMA stances. And by no any means seated methods should prevail over standing or dynamic ones. 

I don't know what Dazuo is, and I'm not sure if that was a typo but you seem to be saying seated methods have no relation to Nei Dan?

 

On the one hand I agree that seated methods alone can contain problems, but I'm not sure what you're basing your other points off of.

[Master Logray]

Moving/standing are mostly for beginning stage or at most medium stage.  Ultimately all Neidan schools must be using sitting the big majority of time.   The only alternative is perhaps lying down.  The main point is to maintain a static body for prolonged period.  Moving/standing are unstable and having too much distractions.   They are still being used to balance the body in the advanced stage in a very limited way. 

[Antares]

5 hours ago, Master Logray said:

Moving/standing are mostly for beginning stage or at most medium stage.  Ultimately all Neidan schools must be using sitting the big majority of time.  

Sitting is designed more for the final stage. At the beginning moving must prevail over sitting. Da Zuo is used for mind heart sinking and should be done no more than 20 minutes per day because sitting exhausts jing. Da Zuo is not Xing but xin cultivation. Read classics, what Wang Chongyang wrote about initial stages. (The Farther of the Northern Schools). He says that Ming cultivation is followed by Xing cultivation. If you do not have the basis how can you meditate?  From

The Teachings and Practices of the Early Quanzhen Taoist Masters

By Stephen Eskildsen 

Edited March 28, 2021 by Antares

[Cleansox]

On 2021-03-27 at 2:45 PM, Antares said:

 

If you are familiar with any other sitting method which produces Yang then let us know provoding support for that statement that "sitting produces Yang". 

Ah, but it is you who are voicing a specific claim, so the burden of proof is on you. Me, on the other hand, is open for the idea that there are more ways to do a practice than I know of. 

On 2021-03-27 at 2:45 PM, Antares said:

 

In his book he writes that Neidan is done by sitting combining it with qigong and dao yin. I have never seen in texts that neidan is about practising qigong, dao yin and sitting. What does mean "so he should have his base covered"?

No, but before doing Nei Dan (if that starts with the reversal) one should go through the process of tong guan, which according to Wang Mu is a houtian practice. 

Wouldn't the curriculum in Lotus Neigong be sufficient for this? 

 

Wasn't this what you were referring to earlier? 

Or am I missing where in the process this discussion were? 

On 2021-03-27 at 2:45 PM, Antares said:

So we have no texts to cover the idea that sitting and qigong ca be considered as Neidan practise. You always asking me to bring you classic texts but you provided zero texts from your side. 

See above, you are the one claiming that this stage cannot be practiced seated, so it is you that should provide support. 

 

I haven't had the time to check up the development of this thread, I will do that and see if you or anyone else have provided that support or if the thread at large has moved in another direction. 

[Antares]

1 hour ago, Cleansox said:

Ah, but it is you who are voicing a specific claim, so the burden of proof is on you. Me, on the other hand, is open for the idea that there are more ways to do a practice than I know of. 

I provided many links. If you can not comprehend it, it is no my problem