Reading/Study as a practice

[Maddie]

    In the past in my evangelical Christian days the notion of reading the bible as a practice in and of itself was a pretty big thing as having spiritual efficacy. 

    Later when I left Christianity I didn't think very highly of most things Christian so just sort of dropped this notion. But as after all break ups eventually one gets back on speaking terms with their ex and so I have been re-exploring this type of practice, by reading various sacred texts and scriptures slowly and mindfully and paying attention to any effects they might have energetically.  To my surprise they do seem to have an effect on an energetic level. I especially notice things going on in my upper chakras (not really that surprising). 

    The reason I am writing this post is because I wanted to know if other traditions teach that reading and studying the sacred texts and scriptures IS a practice, and if so what the effects are?

[doc benway]

My Daoist teacher was openly and explicitly opposed to reading and study. He actively discouraged it and considered it a waste of time that would be better spent in meditation or other non-academic pursuits. Along those lines, I've never seen or heard of any English translations of any writings in our system. That lack of access to scriptural resources may be a part of his position. The primary reason, however,  seems to be a recognition that most Westerners are far too much in their heads and concepts whereas the majority of personal growth in the Daoist arts he valued (primarily internal martial arts, qigong, and neigong) occurs through direct experiential training methods.

 

My Bön teachers have a very different mindset. In Tibetan culture education is highly respected and valued as are teachings, both written and verbal. Books are treated with reverence, as are teachers. Reading and studying, especially Dharma, are considered among the most blessed activities one can engage in. The effects are, of course, intellectual growth primarily. Practical benefits are also possible. All practitioners are encourage to engage in both intellectual and non-conceptual practices and the combination seems to be considered superior to either alone. The general instruction is that we need to hear the teachings from a qualified master, then put the teachings into practice in our day to day lives until we have some type of realization, then we need to check our own understanding and realization against what is present in the tantras and scriptures and make sure they agree. 

 

A third perspective comes from my, admittedly limited, exposure to Judaism. Much of the esoteric content and practices have been lost or abandoned in mainstream Judaism. One factor was the diaspora. Jews largely eschewed the mystical traditions in an effort to integrate into largely Chrisitan societies. Another factor is the long and obscene history of pogroms leading up to the holocaust which took many of the greatest teachers and their esoteric and practical knowledge from us prematurely. Consequently, Judaism tends to emphasize the intellectual. Reading and study are highly valued and have been elevated to a high art and science. Scriptures and texts are revered and studied on multiple levels using a variety of specialized techniques, such as gematria. On the other hand, while prayer and practical activity as a manifestation of the divine are important, many Jews feel that there is somewhat of a vacuum in Judaism when it comes to experiential practices. This was beautifully captured in the book The Jew in the Lotus by Rodger Kamenetz.

[Maddie]

28 minutes ago, steve said:

My Daoist teacher was openly and explicitly opposed to reading and study. He actively discouraged it and considered it a waste of time that would be better spent in meditation or other non-academic pursuits. Along those lines, I've never seen or heard of any English translations of any writings in our system. That lack of access to scriptural resources may be a part of his position. The primary reason, however,  seems to be a recognition that most Westerners are far too much in their heads and concepts whereas the majority of personal growth in the Daoist arts he valued (primarily internal martial arts, qigong, and neigong) occurs through direct experiential training methods.

 

My Bön teachers have a very different mindset. In Tibetan culture education is highly respected and valued as are teachings, both written and verbal. Books are treated with reverence, as are teachers. Reading and studying, especially Dharma, are considered among the most blessed activities one can engage in. The effects are, of course, intellectual growth primarily. Practical benefits are also possible. All practitioners are encourage to engage in both intellectual and non-conceptual practices and the combination seems to be considered superior to either alone. The general instruction is that we need to hear the teachings from a qualified master, then put the teachings into practice in our day to day lives until we have some type of realization, then we need to check our own understanding and realization against what is present in the tantras and scriptures and make sure they agree. 

 

A third perspective comes from my, admittedly limited, exposure to Judaism. Much of the esoteric content and practices have been lost or abandoned in mainstream Judaism. One factor was the diaspora. Jews largely eschewed the mystical traditions in an effort to integrate into largely Chrisitan societies. Another factor is the long and obscene history of pogroms leading up to the holocaust which took many of the greatest teachers and their esoteric and practical knowledge from us prematurely. Consequently, Judaism tends to emphasize the intellectual. Reading and study are highly valued and have been elevated to a high art and science. Scriptures and texts are revered and studied on multiple levels using a variety of specialized techniques, such as gematria. On the other hand, while prayer and practical activity as a manifestation of the divine are important, many Jews feel that there is somewhat of a vacuum in Judaism when it comes to experiential practices. This was beautifully captured in the book The Jew in the Lotus by Rodger Kamenetz.

 

This makes me think of the divide in Theravada between the village/scholar monks and the forest/meditation monks. 

The village monks tend to look down on the forest monks for having a shallow understanding of the dharma, while the forest monks tend to look down on the village monks for having a weak meditation practice. I tend to think of it as both are important and its not an either/or issue. 

[doc benway]

25 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

 

This makes me think of the divide in Theravada between the village/scholar monks and the forest/meditation monks. 

The village monks tend to look down on the forest monks for having a shallow understanding of the dharma, while the forest monks tend to look down on the village monks for having a weak meditation practice. I tend to think of it as both are important and its not an either/or issue. 

 

I agree and I also feel it is important for each of us to try and identify what we need to help us progress.

The right balance between the two for any given individual may not be an equal balance.

I know that I tend to be too much in my head, very much an intellectual, and I have progressed far more through experiential practice than through reading and study. I was very fortunate to encounter teachers in both Daoism and Bön who emphasized the experiential, allowing me to come to this realization. I'm told by both of them that over-intellectualization is a very common defect among Westerners, whereas the opposite tends to be the case in the East. I can't verify this but it makes sense and has been my personal experience.

PS - I suspect this is likely the case for anyone who is a frequent participant in online discussion groups!

 

[Sketch]

I'm not really capable of uncritical reading-this was what did the Bible in for me, so many inconsistencies even as a kid. 

 

I do read a lot of Taoist literature and related things with a sense of "keeping myself on track", in the same sense as reading a favorite poem for inspiration or listening to a rousing song to get psyched for the day. 

 

But liturgy as such may be just beyond my grasp.

[dwai]

I found that "reading" (i.e. studying formal texts and commentaries) was very important and necessary to take me to the next step vis-a-vis internal practices.

 

In the process of learning taijiquan and the temple style daogong/neigong paradigm, we are strongly advised to study the Dao De Jing and contemplate its meaning. We're also advised to study the Taijiquan Classics. 

 

Yoga practice recommends study and contemplation on the Sutras of Patanjali as a primary text. Vedanta is most heavily focused on the study, contemplation of Upanishads, and what they point towards.

 

[C T]

.... 

Edited February 17, 2021 by C T

[Limahong]

47 minutes ago, C T said:

....

 

 

The human psyche is essentially an ongoing locus of resistance

requiring continuous maintenance & monitoring. ~ R. S. 

 

 

[Maddie]

I think just based on my own personal experience is that to a lot of Westerners they are taught that Buddhism or what ever other method they are learning is "meditation" and there is not a lot of study or theory. What I came to realize as the problem with this is that the Buddha didn't just say "go and meditate" (he had already mastered meditation before he became enlightened). The Buddha taught the "Dharma" which involves a lot of things that need to be studied and realized and not just meditation. 

[liminal_luke]

One way to make reading a more embodied activity is to read aloud.  Bonus points if you take turns reading aloud with another person and discuss.

[C T]

For anyone keen on most excellent translations of profound Vajrayana Buddhist texts..... 

 

https://read.84000.co/section/all-translated.html

 

[Daemon]

On 17/02/2021 at 3:10 PM, dmattwads said:

  The reason I am writing this post is because I wanted to know if other traditions teach that reading and studying the sacred texts and scriptures IS a practice, and if so what the effects are?

 

 

Sometimes attendees at Quaker Meetings will read aloud passages of text from various sources.

 

The effect of the Silence of the meeting being filled with such sharing can be profound.

 

☮

 

[Maddie]

I've noticed lately that reading various religious texts affects my qi in different ways. Just the act of reading it, regardless if I understand it or not. The qi starts moving. Has anyone else noticed anything like this?

[manitou]

On 2/17/2021 at 11:09 AM, dmattwads said:

(he had already mastered meditation before he became enlightened). 

 

 

 

I don't think he would have done a true meditation, where he sits with still mind.  I think his mind was very active.  I think he was going into himself with the question 'Who am I?'  The realization of who he was is the moment of enlightenment.

[Omiiran]

On 3/29/2021 at 3:48 AM, dmattwads said:

I've noticed lately that reading various religious texts affects my qi in different ways. Just the act of reading it, regardless if I understand it or not. The qi starts moving. Has anyone else noticed anything like this?

I did experiences something similar to what you said, I guess religious texts and scripture have effect that's deeper and more profound than what I know but I don't honestly know what it is or how it works myself, maybe the why of it is enlightened master, sages, and saints are trying to help people with these texts.

 

The lotus sutra is very mysterious in it's function and wonder, that's anecdotally atleast for me .

 

I remember a dharma talk/excerpt from a Taiwan Buddhist Internet Forum,  edited by Dharma Teacher Ruying, written in November 27, 2003 The Ordinary Man, Translated by JC cleary(Clear View of Fundamental Mind_ - Yao-tsung, Wu )

Quote

Buddha Abides in the World Forever, the Teaching Assembly on Spirit Peak Is Still in Session and Has Not Dispersed

 

“Thus I have heard” [the phrase that begins each sūtra] shows that [the teachings that follow] are the special instructions Buddha gave to Ānanda in the teachings which he bequeathed.
Putting “Thus I have heard” at the beginning of a Buddhist sūtra shows the importance of the message. [...] In fact, [the phrase “Thus I have heard”] has a more important, more profound implication.

When practitioners recite a text or immerse themselves in a text, they rely on this “Thus I have heard” to enter into the teaching assembly. In [the phrase] “Thus I have heard,” the word “I” refers to the one reading the text, and you must think “Thus do I myself personally participate in the teaching assembly, which is heard personally by me.” “At that time” [the phrase that regularly follows “Thus I have heard” at the beginning of many sūtras] means at this precise moment, the Buddha is there (wherever that is), and the Buddha is manifesting the supernatural powers of the light of wisdom, enabling those participating in the teaching assembly and those “immersed in the sūtra” to suddenly cut off all defiled thoughts and afflictions and instantly enter the state where they may truly listen.
(The Buddha can only manifest supernatural powers when he is setting forth the teaching, using them to adorn the site where the teaching is being presented.)

After that, those who immerse themselves in the sūtras must rely on the meaning of the sūtras to visualize the teaching assembly going on, and reestablish the teaching assembly!
Many of the Buddhist sūtras proceed in a Question-and-answer format. They are like a play, so it is easy to reestablish the teaching assembly by visualizing it.
Only in this way can we find the true meaning of the Buddha’s teaching and experience the realms the Buddha explains.
Only in this way can it be called “visualizing the sūtras” – otherwise it is called “reading the sūtras.”

“To read the sūtras” means you are just a student reading stories from history. Then it is hard to enter into the teaching assembly, and hard to awaken to the realm which the Buddha is speaking of!

It is like a concert. If you read about it in the newspaper, or see it on television, this is nowhere near as real as when you personally go to the concert hall and experience the concert in person.

This experience [of a concert] is almost impossible to communicate in words – and all the more so when it comes to experiencing the realm the Buddha speaks of: this is even more impossible.
As for the spiritual powers displayed by the Buddha before he explains the teachings, only those who immerse themselves in visualizing the sūtras can experience them. Only then can you suddenly cut off afflictions and defiling thoughts, and then reach the state where you suddenly cut off the form “self” and the form “others” and the form “living beings” and the form “life.” You immediately enter the state where you are truly hearing and experiencing the Truth which has no teachings, where you
can leave behind all the dusts of [intellectual and emotional attachments to] the teachings, and awaken to Prajñā, to transcendent wisdom.
This is why the teaching assembly can be reestablished by “true visualization.”

Once we discover and acclaim the fact that the Buddha abides forever in the world, and that the three hundred and more teaching assemblies on Spirit Peak are now, after twenty-five hundred years, still in session and have not dispersed – this is truly a blessing for sentient beings who have completed the Truth to Truth.

Thus the Diamond Sūtra says: “Where the sūtras are, the Buddha must be present.” Wherever people are immersed in visualizing the sūtras, they must be adorning the mind of enlightenment.

 

 

[Maddie]

I suppose any replies to this will be mainly a matter of opinion but I was wondering if anyone feels that religious texts have any energy and power in and of themself? Like does having a copy on your table at energy to the room or does just reading it generate merit or have energy?

[Maddie]

I thought I would elaborate on my own question a little bit. Since asking that question the other day, for contrast I read the scriptures of a couple other traditions. I don't want to name names but the scriptures of the other traditions have more of a reputation for being more judgmental. What I found was after spending some time reading them I began to feel inexplicably irritable. This happened each day I read them. On the other hand when I read scriptures of a more eastern origin I began to feel peaceful and happy. It was as though the energy of the scriptures affects those reading them, and it seems to go beyond the intellectual understanding of the content. 

[forestofclarity]

Sometimes I wonder if books are just golden prisons for the mind. 

[manitou]

4 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

Sometimes I wonder if books are just golden prisons for the mind. 

 

 

I think they can be, if they pimp a particular mindset.  Any religious text, as I see it, that emphasizes that 'theirs is the only way' is by nature exclusionary and can't possibly be the Truth.  I think the Truth must encompass everyone and everything for it to be True North.  They can be a great conveyance, and I've read books of most all religions and philosophies, including Freemasonry - which will also get you 'there', but in an arduous fashion.

 

There is one little book that absolutely set my previous concept of 'a God' on its head.  It's The Impersonal Life, channeled by an anonymous person (later determined to be Joseph Benner, I believe he was a Jesuit priest).  An odd title, not real understandable until one sees what he means.  The words speak directly to your heart, and there is no doubt upon reading that the words ring true.  The book was written long ago, in the early 1900's.  The book is a small one, but the channelled words have an incredible amount of impact, I have bought this book over and over for different people over the years.  In fact, I'm re-reading it again right now - I usually read it once a year or so.  Since about 1982!

 

One caveat.  The book, in the first chapter, has a Christian feel to it - maybe because he's trying to bring Christians along further on their path, I don't know.  But this is quickly eliminated by the second chapter or so.  Another caveat - it's one of those great old books with kind of archaic and schmaltzy language.  Stick with it anyway.  This book laid out a non-dogmatic path that my particular soul took, because apparently it recognized the truth as spoken.  It takes you to the place of the I Am, the place where all paths sooner or later turn to the metaphysical truths common to all spiritual paths.  It is the path that takes you out of the vessel you came in on, if this is desirable to you.  For me, it is the answer to everything.

[forestofclarity]

10 hours ago, manitou said:

They can be a great conveyance, and I've read books of most all religions and philosophies, including Freemasonry - which will also get you 'there', but in an arduous fashion.

 

They may have a function, but I wonder if at a certain point they block you. It strikes me that many of us read books and simply replace one story with another. Sometimes this is a good thing, as one story may have a closer proximation than another, but it seems to me that any story has a distorting influence on story-less reality. 

 

Also, In my experience, "reality" tends to warp around whatever story one has. 

 

One of my teachers has deeply challenged me to go beyond my stories, especially my precious Buddhist ones. In so doing, I am finding a great deal of pressure from other Buddhists to NOT DO THAT. Of course, I trust my teacher, but I am a bit surprised. 

 

Of course, what 'there' means is widely variant. For some, 'there' means feeling relatively stress and anxiety free, but for others it means your body becomes incorruptible at death or dissolves into light. 

Edited November 4, 2021 by forestofemptiness

[manitou]

Personally, I think 'there' refers to knowing who you really are.

[Maddie]

5 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

One of my teachers has deeply challenged me to go beyond my stories, especially my precious Buddhist ones. In so doing, I am finding a great deal of pressure from other Buddhists to NOT DO THAT. Of course, I trust my teacher, but I am a bit surprised. 

 

Of course, what 'there' means is widely variant. For some, 'there' means feeling relatively stress and anxiety free, but for others it means your body becomes incorruptible at death or dissolves into light. 

 

If a book was written by a person and is giving advice, and your teacher is a person giving advice, what is the difference then?

[forestofclarity]

1 hour ago, dmattwads said:

 

If a book was written by a person and is giving advice, and your teacher is a person giving advice, what is the difference then?

 

I think books have a certain function, and for some people at certain times, they can be quite helpful. Obviously many advanced people have written books. 

 

The fundamental issue with a book is that it is always generic. The same words for every person, every time. A book doesn't personalize the teaching to fit you. A book doesn't answer questions. A book cannot clarify points. A book cannot tell you whether you misinterpreted it. You cannot check your understanding against a book. And finally, there is no non-verbal communication with a book, personal connection, or "warm hand" to take a hold of. 

 

I have found over the past years that for many people (and I include myself here) are just looking to exchange one set of stories for another. As I said, it appears to me that all concepts have a distorting effect. 

 

 

[Maddie]

1 hour ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

I think books have a certain function, and for some people at certain times, they can be quite helpful. Obviously many advanced people have written books. 

 

The fundamental issue with a book is that it is always generic. The same words for every person, every time. A book doesn't personalize the teaching to fit you. A book doesn't answer questions. A book cannot clarify points. A book cannot tell you whether you misinterpreted it. You cannot check your understanding against a book. And finally, there is no non-verbal communication with a book, personal connection, or "warm hand" to take a hold of. 

 

I have found over the past years that for many people (and I include myself here) are just looking to exchange one set of stories for another. As I said, it appears to me that all concepts have a distorting effect. 

 

 

 

Ok that is a decent point. 

[Encephalon]

Maybe Ken Wilber was quoting the Dalai Lama, or maybe they both came to this independantly, but they both say that reading is magnificent tool for eliminating doubt about the particulars of a chosen path.  I know that I would have been spared years of unnecessary anxiety if I had actually had this info shoring up my practice.