Karma of prostitution

[Nuralshamal]

I would like to ask people about their ideas; what is the karma for prostitution?

1) What caused the prostitute to become a prostitute?

2) What karma does the prostitute get from selling sexual services?

3) What karma does the people who buy sexual services from a prostitute get?

[Toni]

prostitution is natural for the human being. It is the natural way of sex for both women and men, be it directly or indirectly

[Nuralshamal]

I've consulted my most preferred "saint" on the science of karma, the Danish mystic Martinus.

He lived from 1890-1981.

In the 60s, during the sexual revolution and culmination of hippie-sex culture, someone actually asked him at a Q&A in Sweden.

It was in 1968 in Varnhem Sweden.

Here is the original transcript, I'll put an English translation below:
 

"SPG: Er prostitution godt for seksuelt hungrende mennesker?

SVAR af MARTINUS: ”Ja, det er det sikkert… [stor latter]”
”Ja, jeg ville nu ikke gøre det… [fortsat stor latter]”
”Nej, men øh.. prostitution… jaaa.. kan man sige.. øhh”
”Hvis denne prostitution, hvis den, øh, ikke berører andre mennesker end de to personer selv, øh, hvis den ikke skaber sorg og lidelser hos andre mennesker osv, så, og det ikke er gift, det ikke er et menneske der bryder troskab osv, så kan jeg jo ikke se at, øh, andet end de må selv om det”
”At de tager penge for det, det må de jo så selv bestemme [latter]”
”Hvis ikke prostitutionen var, så mange, mange, ja mange, normale… hvad kan man sige..  pæne kvinder ikke kunne eksistere, så ville der være voldtægter, en hel masse, jaa, jeg mener det er en meget stor sikkerhedsventil alt sådan noget, med prostitutionen.”
”Og det er jo sikkert en nødvendighed for tiden, det må være nødvendigt, men det er jo ikke noget jeg kan anbefale man skal give sig til at være [latter]”
 

Here is the English translation:
"Question: Mr Martinus, is prostitution good for the people who crave sex?"
"Answer: Yes, most probably... [everyone erupts into enormeous laughter]"
"Well, yes, I myself wouldn't do it" [everyone continues laughing]"
"If this prostitution, if it doesn't touch the lives of others than to two people actually doing it... If it doesn't create hurt and suffering among other people.. E.g. if one is married or in committed relationship... As long as people are not breaking vows, promises or cheating on a spouse or partner... I can't say anything else, than it's simply a matter between these two people"
"And if they decide to charge money.. Well, that's up for them to decide! [everyone laughs]"
"If there was no prostitution, with all our beloved, devoted and innocent women... I'm afraid there would be massive rape.. I actually think prostitution is a big safety valve for the society":
"I guess it's probable a necessary evil in this day and age, it must be a kind of necessity in our societiy.."
"However, it's not something I would recommend! [everyone laughs]"

Martinus was an elderly gentleman of about 70 years at this point. Hence the great laughter. Everyone found it suprising that a respectable elderly man, who taught spirituality, could be so humorous about such a serious topic. Also to be said, is that in that period in Denmark (the 60s), there was no woman trafficking like there is today (with women from Eastern Europe, Africa and Asia being trafficked and taken advantage of by pimps and criminals under threat of violence). Therefore the prostitutes were of a different kind, not being beaten, sold, threatened, used or controlled using violence. They chose it of their own free will, as an easy way to make money.

Personally, these are my own thoughts:

1) Why does a woman become a prostitute?
If she is caught, threatened and forced into making money for someone else, she has herself in a previous lifetime used and forced others. This could be slavery, or simply people living in primitive societies with maids or servants working under very bad conditions.

If she chooses it of her own free will, it's simply because she feels it's an easy way to make money.

2) The karma a prostitute gets for selling sexual services
Her desire for sex will over time morph. If done for many decades, this could cause her to have an unusually high sex drive in the next life time.
Further, it could make her become to speculative and manipulating about making money, using contacts etc in either this or the next life.
However, if she gives out pleasure and satisfaction physically, she is karmically bound to receive that. However, with money being charged, that equalizes it somewhat.

3) The karma for visiting a prostitute
The person visiting the prostitute, is using the prostitute's somewhat disadvantaged situation (she needs to sell her body for money), in order to satisfy his own physical desire. If there was no money involved, she would not of her free will have sex with him.

Therefore, the karma must be, that the person visiting prostitutes will in the future encounter a similar situation. He/she will be in a disadvantaged situation, where someone else will use this disadvantaged situation, to extract something they want from them, even though they would never give this thing of their own free will.
 

Edited February 27, 2021 by Nuralshamal

[Nuralshamal]

I just searched for "Martinus and sex", and I found a very interesting post on Quora

According to this, prostitutes must fall under the "B - category" of people.

Which type do you think they are?

I think the people visiting prostitutes could be both B, C D, and E people. Of course the F and G people could also visit prostitutes. But H, I, J and K people... I don't think they could ever visit a prostitute.

Edited July 30, 2022 by Nuralshamal

[silent thunder]

Sex between consenting adults does not concern me one iota, nor can it seem relevant to anyone but those involved... (unless one is interested in voyerism, in which case... we're back to consenting adults).

 

Leave consenting adults to their own process. 

Why bother about it? 

[anshino23]

Martinus is pretty cool. Has a bench in Dyrehaven named by him. Incredible energy at that place. Ever been? Are you danish yourself? If so, rart at møde dig!  

[liminal_luke]

5 hours ago, Nuralshamal said:

I would like to ask people about their ideas; what is the karma for prostitution?

1) What caused the prostitute to become a prostitute?

2) What karma does the prostitute get from selling sexual services?

3) What karma does the people who buy sexual services from a prostitute get?

 

Are you a prostitute or considering prostitution as a career path?  Are you a current or prospective john?  If so, the questions you pose are indeed worthy of careful consideration.  If this is the case, I applaud your conscientiousness.  

 

Still, this inquiry pricks my shame radar.  Discussions of karma can be a way of shaming people and I´d like to avoid that.  Nobody appointed me the karma police, so who am I to judge?  In general, I agree with @silent thunder who recommends leaving "consenting adults to their own process."  That said, I think there´s more to the ethics of sex than mere consent.  When considering my own behavior, it´s important to me not to be sexual in a way that hurts other people.  People often censent to self-injurious actions.  I have, for instance, willingly consumed Coca-Cola on numerous occasions  Sometimes people consent to sexual activity that is similarly self-injurious, and this is where I think an a little extra diligence goes a long way.  

Edited February 27, 2021 by liminal_luke

[manitou]

It seems to me that we're approaching prostitution as a good or a bad thing.  It's an 'is' thing.  The ability of non judgment is something that is highly desirable for personal awakening.

[liminal_luke]

2 hours ago, manitou said:

It seems to me that we're approaching prostitution as a good or a bad thing.  It's an 'is' thing.  The ability of non judgment is something that is highly desirable for personal awakening.

 

I intuitively sense the rightness of this position.  It does us little good to judge sex workers or their clients.  In fact, I´m open to the possibility that for some sex work is a freely chosen and rewarding job.  Likewise, some people may benefit from employing a sex worker. (I´m thinking of a severely disabled person who employs a knowledgable sex surrogate to facilitate an erotic experience that otherwise wouldn´t be possible.)  If only I hadn´t watched that Netflix documentary about pimps in LA last night!  The show painted a grim picture of brutalized women.  

 

So I´m left with a question: is it possible to maintain a what-is-is attitude while still working to put pimps behind bars?  Can I make firm ethical decisions about my own behavior while maintaining a "what is is" attitude?  How do we balance equanimity and righteous outrage?

Edited February 27, 2021 by liminal_luke

[dwai]

A very interesting parable -

https://mohanjiparables.wordpress.com/tag/morality/

Spoiler

In Bengal, in the early 1900s lived a Yogi called Liladhar. He was quite introverted and unassuming. He used to give lectures on Bhagawad Gita and other scriptures to the villagers. He used to teach students and thus earn his livelihood. He led a very humble life. He cooked his own food, washed his own clothes, cleaned the house himself, and he shared his food with anyone who came hungry while he prepared his food. His needs were very limited. He lived in a single room near the river. People revered him and respected him. Thus, he lived a quiet life, till about 40 years of age.

There was a brothel about 500 meters away from his house, in the same street where he lived, which used to be visited by many people from the village as well as from the neighboring villages. One day, people saw, with great surprise, Liladhar visiting this brothel. All were surprised as well as shocked. Yet, nobody dared to ask him anything. They were even more shocked when they saw him visiting the brothel again, the next day, after sun set. This went on, day after day – every night he visited the brothel and spent the whole night there, with one particular young woman, who had just been brought into this brothel. This seeming weakness of his, steadily tarnished his image. He fell in the eyes of the villagers. They stopped attending his classes. They refused to send their children to him. He became jobless and penniless. For a few days, he did some odd jobs in the locality. Soon, people stopped giving him any job. He went around begging, and somehow, everyday, he made just enough money to spend the night at the brothel with this woman. Even if he could not buy food, he religiously visited this woman. He did not forfeit his habit at any cost. Finally, when nobody even gave him alms in his village, he went to the neighboring town every morning, earned his money through odd jobs or begging in the streets, and came back in the evening to visit this particular woman at the brothel. Some youngsters even beat him, destroyed his one-room house, and even threatened to kill him, because they decided that he was not doing something that befitted a spiritual man. They decided that he was violating the moral consciousness of the society. Some people of the village tried to expel him from the village by force. But, it was effectively aborted by some elderly villagers who explained to them that “his karma will take care of him”. 

ome others who used to frequent this brothel became curious about this woman. Nobody ever saw her, because Liladhar used to occupy her room, before others arrive. They even bribed the woman who was running the brothel and offered her much higher pay, for one night with this

mystery woman. Each time someone tried this, the brothel woman blackmailed Liladhar and extracted higher pay for the prescribed night with this woman. He toiled more and more for this extra money which the owner woman increasingly extorted day by day.

Still, he did not change his ways and this practice went on for about five or six years until one day, the woman whom he used to visit fell sick, vomited blood, and was hospitalized. On the same evening, she passed away. There was no one to claim her body. No one wanted to claim the body of a prostitute. The wise, morality conscious society was very clear about that!!!. Liladhar received her body, found enough money and arranged a proper funeral for her.

After the funeral, on the same night, he prepared to leave the place. He gave his house, even though partially damaged by the morality conscious society, to an old woman who was homeless, abandoned and lonely. Any shelter was better than no shelter for that old woman. She was well pleased. She blessed him for his kindness. While he was leaving, the old woman asked: “My son, you are a kind man, but you have suffered a lot in silence – without complaining, because of your weakness for one woman. She is dead now. Tell me, what made a balanced person like you, to undergo so much pain and trouble for the sake of a prostitute?”

 

Liladhar smiled and said: “That was my wife from my last life. She craved for physical relationship with many men in her last life, and she became a prostitute in this life. But, she never wanted to prostitute in this life. She was forcefully sold to this brothel by her relatives, because her destiny was such. She wanted to escape from there, but was quite helpless. Since she did not have enough money to buy freedom, nor did I have sufficient money to rescue her, I gave her company every night till she died. The whole night, I taught her various scriptures and words from the divine Masters. We never slept. She slept in the morning while I worked to earn money, to meet her in the evening. Day by day, she became spiritually evolved and attained liberation at death. I sacrificed my sleep and reputation for a noble cause. It was more important to serve a helpless woman than a thankless society reeling in inhibitions and non-understanding. I never even touched her once. This helped her to remain chaste and get liberation in this life. Because she served me sincerely in her last life as my wife, I returned the service and thus equalized the karmic debt. This will help my liberation too. Now, I have nothing more to do here. So, I am leaving for Himalayas. The time for my final liberation is at hands reach.”

He walked away, without looking back. After he left, this story started spreading from mouth to mouth and the villagers started feeling guilty for torturing a noble man. Some even went searching for him in the neighboring places to bring him back. It was too late. He never left any address behind for anybody to find him.

 

[Nuralshamal]

Thank you everyone for sharing your thoughts, feelings and commentaries!

Don't anyone feel like analysing the karmas for both the prostitute and client?

Don't be shy, it's nothing about shaming, judging or telling others what to do, or what's right or wrong, it's simply a neutral, curious and intellectual analysis of the laws of the universe  what we send out we shall again receive, that's the law of karma.

1) What caused the prostitute to become a prostitute?

2) What karma does the prostitute get from selling sexual services?

3) What karma does the people who buy sexual services from a prostitute get?

[dwai]

3 hours ago, Nuralshamal said:

1) What caused the prostitute to become a prostitute?

 

There can be many reasons. One cannot generalize without understanding any individual’s circumstances and/or past. 

3 hours ago, Nuralshamal said:

2) What karma does the prostitute get from selling sexual services?

3) What karma does the people who buy sexual services from a prostitute get?

 

 

.

Karma is not a thing one earns, karma means action. What is called the law of karma is actually the law of causality. Do good in the world, the consequences are usually good. Do bad in the world, and the consequences are usually bad.

 

In the transactional world, things can be understood as follows — 

 

Energetically and psychologically, result of such activities is usually negative. Why? In general promiscuity is not a good thing — every person we interact with leaves an imprint on our subtle body, as do we on theirs.  
 

The more “intimate” the interaction, the stronger the imprint. These imprints form seeds for future causality, across lifetimes. Having multiple sexual partners causes pretty strong psycho-energetic imprinting. Intimacy without emotional/spiritual connections can cause a vicious cycle of addiction — both for purely sexual gratification, as well as other subconscious things like addiction to a certain personality type and so on.  So, caveat emptor — buyers beware! 
And sellers beware too. 

[thelerner]

I'm not qualified to speak about karma, but in big cities, there is certainly a dark side to prostitution where young woman with few resources are conned and/or controlled into it.  A bad scene where the money goes to pimps, and the women are abused and at high risk for violence and disease.   Its not always that way, and I suspect there'd be less of it, if prostitution was legalized and had some regulations.  

 

Question 2, when done right, the prostitute gets money, usually much more than they'd get working 9 to 5 retail jobs.  In the best cases the prostitute is a sex worker, giving services and consolations beyond just sex.  

 

3.  I suppose it depends on the person and mutual respect in the act.  Whether either party sees it as degrading or a professional transaction.  If a woman is being controlled, shamed and taken advantage of then the people using her are should be ashamed (&stop) for their part in contributing to it.  Similar, imo, to drugs, ie good or bad, some contribute to horrible cartel violence where they're grown and shipped.  Thus users bare some responsibility.   

 

So.. to me much depends on the individuals, their motives and true consent.

Edited February 28, 2021 by thelerner

[liminal_luke]

3 hours ago, Nuralshamal said:

1) What caused the prostitute to become a prostitute?
 

 

Student loans.

[idquest]

In the place I live, selling sex is legal. At the same time, buying sex is illegal. Even though this seems to be ludicrous and contradictory, if you think a bit there is a lot of sense in it.

 

The person selling sex most often does this because of difficult life situations. Whereas a person buying sex acts as a sexual predator feeding on those more disadvantaged in life. 

 

Rather than putting blame on prostitutes, it would be more accurate to think of those who push them and encourage them.

[ilumairen]

4 hours ago, Nuralshamal said:

Don't anyone feel like analysing the karmas for both the prostitute and client?

 

Not really. Most of the active longer term members are more interested in looking inward than outward. It seems to be a shared karmic tendency..

 

4 hours ago, Nuralshamal said:

Don't be shy, it's nothing about shaming, judging or telling others what to do, or what's right or wrong, it's simply a neutral, curious and intellectual analysis of the laws of the universe  what we send out we shall again receive, that's the law of karma.

 

Shyness would have little to nothing to do with it, although experientially derived differences in understanding of what the word karma refers to just might. 

 

4 hours ago, Nuralshamal said:

 

1) What caused the prostitute to become a prostitute?

2) What karma does the prostitute get from selling sexual services?

3) What karma does the people who buy sexual services from a prostitute get?

My own karmic tendencies give me enough to investigate, understand, and unravel - without having to look outward to some personally crafted ideas regarding individuals who buy or sell sex, and what would certainly amount to my personal judgements on what karma compelled them into such transaction, and what karma would/could possibly be accrued by said transactions.

 

Although, if you would like to discuss how wonky I feel society is regarding sex in general, I may have a bit more to say regarding “shared and inherited karma” - or not.

[ilumairen]

22 hours ago, dwai said:

That was my wife from my last life. She craved for physical relationship with many men in her last life, and she became a prostitute in this life. But, she never wanted to prostitute in this life. She was forcefully sold to this brothel by her relatives, because her destiny was such.

I don’t like this.

 

It still makes being sold into prostitution the fault of the individual who has been sold (owing to wickedness in a supposed past life), still denigrates the woman for being sexual and having had sexual desires (in the purported past life), and then tidily wraps it all up with such being her “destiny,” while the male protagonist of the tale is “elevated” and deemed “good” based solely on the tale he wove of her sexual wickedness in a past life he was supposedly the only one privy to knowing of, and the karma of which he (in all his piety) “saved” her from.

 

 

Edited February 28, 2021 by ilumairen

[liminal_luke]

 

Sex has a sticky quality.  It´s this stickiness that makes it so helpful for cementing (consumating) relationships; people who have sex with each other tend to stick together -- energetically, karmically, emotionally.  If you want to entwine your life with someone elses, sex is often the best tool for the job.  But what if we don´t want to entwine with another person?  Often there´s an impulse to connect physically while at the same time holding back psychologically or spiritually.  It´s a little bit like pressing on a cars gas pedal and brakes at the same time: not good for the engine.  

 

My personal experience is that sex is best when the different dimensions of my being -- physical, psychological, spiritual -- are all aligned and pointed in the same direction.  If part of me is going one way and another part somewhere else, sex is likely to be bad, sometimes very bad.  Disjointed sexual experiences fragment the spirit.  

 

I believe it´s hard to have sex for money that feels like soulful communion.  (But more power to ya if you can manage it!)  So it seems to me that most prostitution is harmful for both buyer and seller.  Still, I try to hold this belief lightly.  I try to remember the many instances where I´ve been wrong in life.  To remember that it´s unwise to extrapolate from my own limited experience to all of humanity.  Your milage may indeed vary.

Edited February 28, 2021 by liminal_luke

[dwai]

2 hours ago, ilumairen said:

I don’t like this.

 

It still makes being sold into prostitution the fault of the individual who has been sold (owing to wickedness in a supposed past life), still denigrates the woman for being sexual and having had sexual desires (in the purported past life), and then tidily wraps it all up with such being her “destiny,” while the male protagonist of the tale is “elevated” and deemed “good” based solely on the tale he wove of her sexual wickedness in a past life he was supposedly the only one privy to knowing of, and the karma of which he (in all his piety) “saved” her from.

 

 

It’s a perspective. Can’t anachronistically apply today’s social norms on something that’s supposedly happened120 years ago. 

[Nungali]

On 27/02/2021 at 11:02 PM, Nuralshamal said:

I would like to ask people about their ideas; what is the karma for prostitution?

1) What caused the prostitute to become a prostitute?

 

There are all different reasons .  You didnt think there was just one , did you ?

 

 

Quote

2) What karma does the prostitute get from selling sexual services?

 

Different types of karma depending on what how and when said services where sold .

 

Eg  ,  I sell you a good car at a cheap price to help you out  ... or I sell you a dud to pass on my troubles elsewhere ,

 

Quote

3) What karma does the people who buy sexual services from a prostitute get?

 

Similar as above .  Did you give her a bit extra money to help her out .

 

Or did you treat her bad and throw her a coin  ?

 

 

 

Life aint black and white ya know .   Think analogue and not digital  or you might become biased and prejudiced

 

Pre   -  judice   - making a judgement without considering the specific facts at hand .

 

 

 

 

Edited February 28, 2021 by Nungali

[Nungali]

On 28/02/2021 at 7:01 AM, liminal_luke said:

 

I intuitively sense the rightness of this position.  It does us little good to judge sex workers or their clients.  In fact, I´m open to the possibility that for some sex work is a freely chosen and rewarding job.  Likewise, some people may benefit from employing a sex worker. (I´m thinking of a severely disabled person who employs a knowledgable sex surrogate to facilitate an erotic experience that otherwise wouldn´t be possible.)  If only I hadn´t watched that Netflix documentary about pimps in LA last night!  The show painted a grim picture of brutalized women.  

 

So I´m left with a question: is it possible to maintain a what-is-is attitude while still working to put pimps behind bars?  Can I make firm ethical decisions about my own behavior while maintaining a "what is is" attitude?  How do we balance equanimity and righteous outrage?

 

 

The pimps and all the nasty side of prostitution seems to have come from its prohibition , like alcohol and everything else .

 

When  'sex work ' was legal and government supported and instituted as a THERAPY  no such problems arose  ;  Wilhelm Reich's Socialist sex party had great success ,  sex advice , therapists and workers touring around in vans , visiting factories and other places . The factory owners loved it !  (excuse the pun)  , becasue workers sick days dropped and productivity increased . 

 

 

Wilhelm Reich: the man who invented free love .

 

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2011/jul/08/wilhelm-reich-free-love-orgasmatron

 

 

 

 

 

 ....   Peeps be havin so many hangups nowadays     

[ilumairen]

18 minutes ago, dwai said:

It’s a perspective. Can’t anachronistically apply today’s social norms on something that’s supposedly happened120 years ago. 

Yeah.. let’s leave the damnation of women over sexuality alone..

 

In a thread about prostitution no less.. 

 

 

:bowing out:

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, ilumairen said:

I don’t like this.

 

It still makes being sold into prostitution the fault of the individual who has been sold (owing to wickedness in a supposed past life), still denigrates the woman for being sexual and having had sexual desires (in the purported past life), and then tidily wraps it all up with such being her “destiny,” while the male protagonist of the tale is “elevated” and deemed “good” based solely on the tale he wove of her sexual wickedness in a past life he was supposedly the only one privy to knowing of, and the karma of which he (in all his piety) “saved” her from.

 

 

 

Agreed . I put it into, that rather primitive  way , of interpreting karma  'basket ' . That basket contains all sorts of nasties  judgements and inequalities falsely created and justified by 'karma ' .

 

If I am rich and you are poor , I won't help you because that is 'your karma ' .   

 

Dog bite ?    You kicked me in a past life when I was a dog       

 

When what the Law of Karma  IS about is more like  .... you crap in your water ... you get crappy water .   You pollute the air , the air is unclean ... and that might cause  a health problem  and other issues  .... you Karma for THAT bad health was you polluting the water .. Or we all get bad health (and heaps more 'knock on ' effects  ) for our 'new world culture ' polluting the oceans . 

 

Its NOT   to    explain prostitution by suggesting that someone's wife in a past life was horny for other men .

 

Although I expect the traditionalists here to cite   tradition   against my views .

[dwai]

3 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

Yeah.. let’s leave the damnation of women over sexuality alone..

 

In a thread about prostitution no less.. 

 

 

:bowing out:

It’s a story — I’m sure it could have been that she was a man in her previous life, and due to his insatiable lust he became a prostitute. Parables are meant to express a specific kind of meaning, and not to be taken literally. What I got from that story was that an unfortunate woman, with the help of a spiritual master gained liberation against severe odds. And that one shouldn’t judge another based on appearances. 

But I AM sorry it affected your feelings, my friend.  

 

[liminal_luke]

I hate it when there´s conflict, especially between wonderful people who don´t mean to hurt each other´s feelings.  Sometimes sex discussions suck.