Differences on Dan Tien location(Damo Mitchell)

[salaam123]

Hi, why does Damo Mitchell say in the MC Orbit video series that the (lower) Dan Tien  is between Chi Hai and Ming Men in the middle of the body above perineum, and in his book, A Comprehensive Guide to Daoist Nei Gong, he pictures it at the level of Chi Hai in the middle of the body above perineum. It's a subtle difference but in my eyes a quite major one, at least for me it feels different. 

I'm guessing that Damo Mitchell hasn't changed his opinion and both are correct, am I right? If so, what is their difference?

 

[salaam123]

Actually there was one sketch in the videos as well which showed the other location, I just remembered. 

I have watched all but the two last ones in the series.

[Cleansox]

40 minutes ago, salaam123 said:

Actually there was one sketch in the videos as well which showed the other location

If you post the two locations, it would open up for a discussion. 

[Creation]

2 hours ago, salaam123 said:

Hi, why does Damo Mitchell say in the MC Orbit video series that the (lower) Dan Tien  is between Chi Hai and Ming Men in the middle of the body above perineum, and in his book, A Comprehensive Guide to Daoist Nei Gong, he pictures it at the level of Chi Hai in the middle of the body above perineum. It's a subtle difference but in my eyes a quite major one, at least for me it feels different. 

Is the subtle difference you are referring to that the ming men point is slightly higher than the qi hai point, so that the first location you describe is slightly higher?  If so, directly behind qi hai is the right instruction, "ming men" referred to "between qi hai and ming men" is more of a region than a point.

[anshino23]

From the book: 

 

Almost every system of internal work from within the Daoist tradition will, at some point, discuss the importance of the lower Dan Tian. It is generally the start point for all other energy practices and considered to be the first aspect of the energy body that a person should learn to work with. This sounds easy enough in theory – placing the awareness on the lower Dan Tian – but it is generally more challenging than that. A great number of practitioners fall down in the earliest stages of their development, either because they don’t know how to locate the lower Dan Tian, or they work with it in the wrong manner. If you miss the lower Dan Tian with either your body mass or, later, the mind, then this will obviously slow down the practice, and if you focus on it incorrectly, it can lead to the development of internal stagnation.

 

The exact location of the lower Dan Tian will vary a slight amount from person to person. This is partly due to body shape and also due to people’s energetic nature. Within textbooks it is usually said to be a few centimetres below the navel, when in fact it is a little more complex than this. In order to locate the lower Dan Tian, we need to follow a few steps.

 

We first use two key acupuncture points as references to locate the lower Dan Tian. These points are Qi Hai () (Ren 6) and Hui Yin () (CV 1). Qi Hai sits in the front midline of the body, two fingers’ width below the lower border of the umbilicus. Hui Yin sits on the base of the body between the opening of the anus and the edge of the genitalia. Figure 4.20 shows how these two points can be used as a cross-reference for locating the lower Dan Tian’s location.

 

Alongside the diagram is the Chinese character for Tian, as in Dan Tian. Looking at the character, we can see a nod to cross-referencing these two points in order to locate the lower Dan Tian. The point at which these two lines cross each other gives the rough location for the centre point of the lower Dan Tian. From here, we then need to move our awareness around a little until we find the exact location.

 

When attempting to understand how far back in the body the lower Dan Tian is located, remember that it sits directly upon the line of the vertical branch of the Thrusting channel. This channel travels like an upright bar through the core of the body. This is why the lower Dan Tian sits directly above the Hui Yin (CV 1) acupuncture point. The majority of Qi Gong practitioners I have met actually place their mind too far forward within the body and so miss the Dan Tian by quite some distance. The awareness is a curious thing, as it likes to have certain locations to ‘grab onto’. If you ever try to put your awareness into a single point within a large space, you will see what I mean. Those of you with enough internal sensitivity to know where your awareness actually is will find that it quickly seeks to attach itself to a physical point of reference within that space if there is one. If you want an easy experiment, just extend your index finger and then try to focus on the air an inch or two from its tip. What you will find is that, in the majority of cases, your awareness is very keen to shift across onto the tip of the finger, and only a focused level of concentration will keep it where it is. If your mind wanders for just a second, your awareness will be on the fingertip. Locating the lower Dan Tian can be similar, as within the space of the lower abdomen you basically have two points which the mind will be able to attach itself to. The first is the true lower Dan Tian and the second is the false Dan Tian. These two points are shown in Figure 4.21. The false Dan Tian corresponds with the Qi Hai (Ren 6) meridian point.

[anshino23]

I haven't found any discrepancies in what Damo has taught, it's pretty clear based on the above for me? But maybe because I've already activated my LDT? Can you explain a bit more about what your confusion is? I'm not sure I quite understand. 

[salaam123]

Here is the other one of Dan Tiens, which is not an exact line at the level of Chi Hai, as it is said in anshino23:s quote. Also there can't be a horizontal line between Chi Hai and the Ming Men, since they are not at the same level, I think.

 

sorry I made two posts by mistake. The photo is below.Zoom to see more clearly.

Edited February 27, 2021 by salaam123

[salaam123]

[Cleansox]

23 minutes ago, salaam123 said:

Here is the other one of Dan Tiens, which is not an exact line at the level of Chi Hai, 

There are two issues here:

1) Every attempt to tell where it is, is just an aproximation, just like one of the posts above say. 

 

2) There are two distinct spaces in that general area which are called "the lower dantian".  Some traditions recognize this, other don't, and then we can argue if there is a relevant point in having this distinction. 

[salaam123]

4 hours ago, Creation said:

Is the subtle difference you are referring to that the ming men point is slightly higher than the qi hai point, so that the first location you describe is slightly higher?  If so, directly behind qi hai is the right instruction, "ming men" referred to "between qi hai and ming men" is more of a region than a point.

thanks, yes, the other one is slightly higher.  but even if the ming men is a region, surely it should have a center point from which the line should be drawn to qi hai?

Edited February 27, 2021 by salaam123

[Creation]

18 hours ago, salaam123 said:

thanks, yes, the other one is slightly higher.  but even if the ming men is a region, surely it should have a center point from which the line should be drawn to qi hai?

For cultivating the ming line, yes, but that is not the same as the "crosshairs" lines used to locate the dantian. That's my understanding at least. At any rate, it shouldn't actually matter - in the diagram you posted, the cauldron itself is a region not a point. If you have such precise focus that you can zoom in on the slight difference in these heights, you've practicing wrong .

Edited February 28, 2021 by Creation

[salaam123]

8 minutes ago, Creation said:

For cultivating the ming line, yes, but that is not the same as the "crosshairs" lines used to locate the dantian. That's my understanding at least. At any rate, it shouldn't actually matter - in the diagram you posted, the cauldron itself is a region not a point. If you have such precise focus that you can zoom in on the slight difference in these heights, you've practicing wrong .

 

But I get different reactions when I focus on these different heights, which should I choose? It could also be, that I have located the qi hai incorrectly.

[dwai]

A very interesting observation from Wang Liping on the location of the lower dantien —

 

Spoiler

The conclusions at which Master Wang has arrived through his own personal experience in training ( he has practiced in different parts of the world and felt this), is that the exact location of the lower elixer field varies according to the geographical location of the individual. In Chinese people, it is between 1.2 -1.5 inches below the navel; in people who live nearer to the equator, the lower elixer field is closer to the navel; while in people who live further away from the equator, the lower elixer field is further from the navel".

 

[Creation]

1 hour ago, salaam123 said:

 

But I get different reactions when I focus on these different heights, which should I choose? It could also be, that I have located the qi hai incorrectly.

I've given you my beginner's understanding, I not qualified to advise you more on this.

[salaam123]

5 hours ago, Creation said:

I've given you my beginner's understanding, I not qualified to advise you more on this.

Im a beginner as well. I think I located my qi hai too low and thus located my real dan tien too low. Today when I focused just a little bit higher than before, what I thought would be on the level of qi hai, I started to get sensations of sparkling type of energy in the place of focus and pleasant lively sensation(like something is activated) in the k-1 points.

 

About the ming line: I thought today that when the lower abdomen is deflated, then it could be that the ming line goes to the dan tien actually during that time.

Edited February 28, 2021 by salaam123

[Cleansox]

On 2021-02-27 at 1:56 PM, salaam123 said:

Hi, why does Damo Mitchell say in the MC Orbit video series that the (lower) Dan Tien  is between Chi Hai and Ming Men in the middle of the body above perineum, and in his book, A Comprehensive Guide to Daoist Nei Gong, he pictures it at the level of Chi Hai in the middle of the body above perineum. 

And if you open that book at page 271-274, you will see a model where the LDT is situated right on the perineum itself (p. 272). 

 

He makes a very good point at p. 273: "both are correct, it just depends upon what your aims are in the practice".