Female enlightened master Rajini Menon on attaining enlightenment by virtuous conduct

[Indiken]

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Edited February 6, 2023 by Indiken

[freeform]

4 hours ago, Indiken said:

So if a person in truly ‘spontaneous’ manner starts to beat the pregnant lady instead of letting her to sit, he is a sage and does a positive effect on the pregnant lady's Ming or Karma ?

Yes - I suppose if the lady was on fire it would be virtuous to pat out the flames  

 

Spontaneous virtue looks like normal virtue - it’s just unconditional.

 

Its a good word - unconditional. 
 

It’s both unconditional (like parental love) and unconditioned - in that it’s not based on habitual patterns.

 

Many people act ‘nice’ because they’re driven by fear. They want to be inoffensive and unthreatening to others.

 

Some people are nice because they’re driven by greed. They want something in return.

 

Some people act nice because they want to be admired or respected by others.

 

Some do it to get sex.

 

Some do it because that’s what they’ve always done.

 

Much of our behaviour is driven by conditioned habitual tendencies and patterns of reacting.

 

A sage who acts spontaneously isn’t driven to act by unconscious tendencies.

A sage just acts - and the impulse for the action comes not from the conditioned aspect of self - but from a divine aspect.

 

In this way a sage’s action is the action of the divine.
 

Sage in Daoism usually means something specific - a Sage has a perfectly still and harmonious nature. Like a lake without ripples (this is not just the stillness of mind, but the still point that sits at the perfect balance of the 5 elemental aspects of our nature).

 

There are 5 key virtuous qualities in Daoism (beating pregnant ladies is not one of them). 

[dwai]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

Yes - I suppose if the lady was on fire it would be virtuous to pat out the flames

Nicely done!  

But “beating” out the flames? How big does that fire have to be?!? 😱

 

P.S. the previous laughemoji was in appreciation of your quick wit (as highlighted in the quoted portion here) 

Edited February 24, 2022 by dwai

[manitou]

On 2/23/2022 at 10:48 AM, freeform said:

Though I don’t think we agree on what ‘enlightenment’ means - there’s a point where one transitions from self identification to something else - and that’s where you and the pregnant lady are the same.

 

 

I am speaking of the removal of conditioning when I use that word.  Once enlightenment is found, the rest of our lives are spent learning all the ramifications of that, and wearing this new robe that we have.

 

The pregnant lady will also have manifested her beating.  The beater still has some work to do on herself, lol.

[Lairg]

There are 3 major stages of enlightenment for humans:

 

- purified control of higher mind and hence on-going contact with the soul

- purified control of the heart and hence direct perception without intervening thought

- purified control of the will (atma) and hence transparency to the localized intent of divinity

 

But who among us can measure/test such states?

 

[manitou]

On 2/23/2022 at 10:28 AM, Indiken said:

 

What do you mean - that we are straw dogs, or that choices are made for us, or something else ?

 

 

When ?

 

 

In the DDJ, it is said that we are as ceremonial straw dogs.  What that says to me is that there is no 'personal' god or being that much cares about who gets what, who gets punished or saved, who does seeming good or seeming bad.  It is an impersonal presence that dwells within us, within animals, within lizards, within everything.  There is nothing out there that 'cares' for us.  Love is indwelling, and when personal identity has been removed it is spontaneous.  It doesn't care about the pregnant lady, either.  It doesn't care about the bus driver.  When a person prays, who or what in the world are they praying to??  A dual, separate god that lives in the ethers that goes by separate names depending on where a person was born?

 

Interesting question you pose, about whether choices are made for us or not.  When one takes into consideration that linear time is a construct of our minds, that there wouldn't be time if the planets weren't rotating - if that is the case, then whatever it is that's of concern has already happened!  It's all Now.  Trying to get our heads around that is next to impossible, but I do find it rather comforting to know that something that appears 'fearful' has already played out.  That sort of takes the punch out of it.

 

As to when the judging is done, there is no judging, as I see it.  We judge ourselves.  Unresolved karma will dictate how our life and how our death will go.  We are currently at a phase, that's all.  How often we recycle is completely up to us.

[manitou]

22 hours ago, Lairg said:

There are 3 major stages of enlightenment for humans:

 

- purified control of higher mind and hence on-going contact with the soul

- purified control of the heart and hence direct perception without intervening thought

- purified control of the will (atma) and hence transparency to the localized intent of divinity

 

But who among us can measure/test such states?

 

 

 

One who surrenders to what is.

[Lairg]

32 minutes ago, manitou said:

 

 

One who surrenders to what is.

 

I like to think that the enlightened human has some functionality - as if some part of divine will has been delegated.

 

On the other hand there is supposed to be very good TV in heaven

 

 

[stirling]

4 hours ago, Lairg said:

 

I like to think that the enlightened human has some functionality - as if some part of divine will has been delegated.

 

On the other hand there is supposed to be very good TV in heaven

 

The enlightened human doesn't exist. It bears repeating:

 

Quote

"There are, strictly speaking, no enlightened people, there is only enlightened activity." - Shunryu Suzuki

 

An enlightened being is in complete alignment with happening and creates no friction. This is the Dao.

[Lairg]

35 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

The enlightened human doesn't exist. It bears repeating:

 

Proof indeed.  Thus is there nothing to which a human can aspire?

[stirling]

3 minutes ago, Lairg said:

 

Proof indeed.  Thus is there nothing to which a human can aspire?

 

A human has relative perspective. A human can aspire to have absolute perspective. It is only with absolute perspective that the understanding of only "enlightened perspective" is available. 

[Lairg]

It may be of use to consider after the 3 stages of enlightenment for the human,  there are supposed to be 7 spiritual paths beyond the planet.    Some humans transfer to the devic kingdom in which there are many more layers of unfoldment.   Others may pass via the Flaming Star.

[stirling]

23 minutes ago, Lairg said:

It may be of use to consider after the 3 stages of enlightenment for the human,  there are supposed to be 7 spiritual paths beyond the planet.    Some humans transfer to the devic kingdom in which there are many more layers of unfoldment.   Others may pass via the Flaming Star.

 

This is based on what tradition(s)? I am basing my posting on the Mahayana Buddhist teachings. My intention is not to declare one more accurate than another.

[Lairg]

14 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

My intention is not to declare one more accurate than another.

OK

[stirling]

20 minutes ago, Lairg said:

OK

 

Why so suspicious?

 

Traditions come and go. The Buddhas teachings had 3 turnings of the wheel of dharma... Daoism survives many interpretations of its own... what is another? All conceptual interpretations of any kind of development are false anyway. One moment there is ignorance, in another there is understanding. That's it.

Edited February 26, 2022 by stirling

[Cleansox]

6 minutes ago, stirling said:

One moment there is ignorance, in another there is understanding. That's it.

What about the babysteps when one believe that one have understanding, just to find out that it was partial understanding, slightly more expanded than the contacted view one started up with? 

[Lairg]

I am more into experiments than traditions

[stirling]

8 minutes ago, Cleansox said:

What about the babysteps when one believe that one have understanding, just to find out that it was partial understanding, slightly more expanded than the contacted view one started up with? 

 

Sure, obscurations drop over time - these are positive steps to realization and feel like progress, but the difference between understanding and not understanding is literally another earth and "self" understanding of how things truly are. Time, Space and Self are seen to be conceptual constructs that can never be believed again. All of the nonsense of attaining, doing, goals, and agency are seen to be illusory. It makes a nonsense of "your" goals, and "your" ambitions.

 

Complete understanding is NOT incremental. No "person" has EVER understood the Dao/Emptiness/Dependent Origination in its wholeness. Understanding is the realization that there ARE no people to understand. Even asking how this is makes sense, or what it means could precipitate understanding. 

[freeform]

6 hours ago, stirling said:

The enlightened human doesn't exist. It bears repeating:

6 hours ago, stirling said:

"There are, strictly speaking, no enlightened people, there is only enlightened activity." - Shunryu Suzuki

 

Interestingly it’s kinda the opposite in Daoism.
 

There’s not even a word for enlightenment - or for the  ‘enlightened’ quality.

 

There are only various labels for the one that attains these things.

 

In fact one of the attainments can be translated as ‘True Human’.

[doc benway]

On 2/24/2022 at 7:42 PM, Lairg said:

There are 3 major stages of enlightenment for humans:

 

- purified control of higher mind and hence on-going contact with the soul

- purified control of the heart and hence direct perception without intervening thought

- purified control of the will (atma) and hence transparency to the localized intent of divinity

 

But who among us can measure/test such states?

 

 

Every one of us, but only ever for ourselves really. 

[-_sometimes]

3 hours ago, freeform said:

Interestingly it’s kinda the opposite in Daoism.

3 hours ago, freeform said:

There’s not even a word for enlightenment - or for the  ‘enlightened’ quality.

 

Honestly for me this has felt like a breath of fresh air. I feel like much of the spiritual things you see out there are quite neurotic, and can build what I now see as an unhealthy obsession with some 'ideal state/place/no state'. The idea of no self, no progress, etc can be quite stressful if you're not 'there', and if you're more neurotically inclined, it really can emphasise that side of you. When you look at daoism and discover that it starts all at the body, getting in touch with yourself, building profound physical and mental health, and then building on that - the fact that daoism doesn't even place much emphasis on seeing your true nature as the ultimate end, that really it's just the start, not pushing away the idea of training and development, it's a quite a relief

 

I heard Damo Mitchell saying in an interview how the most harmful advice he received was about no self, and that it tainted the way he saw things for long time, and I kind of agree.

 

How can you possibly expect to get anywhere when, the vast majority of the time, you don't even know you have a body?? Not quite on topic I know, but I remember being very much into zen, with the no development, you are already there mindset, and honestly it just hurt my brain and gave me headaches lol

[stirling]

6 hours ago, freeform said:

Interestingly it’s kinda the opposite in Daoism.

 

In my opinion being in alignment with the Way is precisely the same. Wu Wei is absolutely existence as "enlightened activity". Where there is "enlightened activity" there is no "self", there is alignment as some translations of Lao Tzu translate it. 

 

Enlightenment is a Western term. The Pali and Sanskrit terms are vague. The most common one is Budh meaning "awaken", but really implies the bud of a plant opening. Buddha then is an "awakened" one... but from what? Terminology in all traditions seems vague, which makes sense since the realization itself is an understanding that the subject/object duality of the universe is in fact a misunderstanding. How do you describe something that has no qualities? All non-dual traditions "point at the moon", for this reason. Daoism does a great job with this, I agree.

 

Quote

In fact one of the attainments can be translated as ‘True Human’.

 

 In the Advaita Vedanta tradition it is the Self that is awakened to. The understanding is the same, IMHO.

Edited February 26, 2022 by stirling

[freeform]

31 minutes ago, -_sometimes said:

The idea of no self, no progress, etc can be quite stressful if you're not 'there'

In my experience none of the adherents of the non-dual, no-self doctrines have been ‘there’… or even close.
 

And I’ve met many.

 

(But that’s just my experience of course.)

 

It’s one of those models that can easily be manipulated by the mind and co-opted into an identity.
 

Because of the solvent like properties of this doctrine, you can use it very creatively to entrench your self identity and weave a shield of ignorance that quickly dissolves any inner or outside attempt to investigate the reality of the situation.

 

To be fair none of the people (from any tradition) who have implied or said implicitly that they’re enlightened have been what I consider enlightened (based on my 3 main teachers’ explanations anyway).

 

It’s just the non-dual doctrines have been used by the modern neo-spiritual gurus - so it’s become a common teaching.

 

Yet it’s also probably the highest teaching…

 

Just that very very few have reached the heights where this teaching is applicable.

 

[freeform]

In Daoism we often step back to step forward.

 

Thats why we go ‘back’ to the body to affect the Qi… or separate Yin and Yang before merging Yin and Yang.

 

 

[Lairg]

I was trained in science:  Observation, deduction, hypothesis, experiment, peer review.

 

It is possible to apply these principles to all aspects of life including spiritual development and inner planes activities.   

 

I remember many years ago, I was living in a spiritual community that focused on communion with Nature.   At that time I was engaging in mental conversations with one or more entities.

 

So there was a woman in the community who was right into space brothers who had a very nice photo of a Haunebu on her wall.  I was there to fix a problem that she had.   Her nylon nightdress kept creeping up while she slept.

 

I found that the phase and neutral wires were reversed for the house and that the earth wire was not connected.  She had only simple devices and it did not stop them running.  The electrical problems seemed to me to be highly symbolic - as if she were not properly connected to the higher power source.

 

So I asked the voice(s) in my head what was going on.  They said that she did not really belong to the community.  

 

I said:   Interesting!  Prove it!

 

And they said, you will observe that there are no plants up against her house, despite it being a nature-based community.   

 

So I looked, and out of perhaps 50 buildings in the community, hers was the only one without plants against the dwelling.

 

This seems an important principle to me.  There must always be an experiment to test a proposition.