Female enlightened master Rajini Menon on attaining enlightenment by virtuous conduct

[Indiken]

@Lairg

 

Maybe you have knowledge on these topics:

 

1. What could be the purpose for UFO/flying saucer deliberately showing itself to a person ? Or maybe, seeing UFO does not have any or only a small significance for the person witnessing the UFO ?

 

2. What could be the purpose of sphere of light appearing in the person's room while he is sleeping and stopping the dream and producing clanking sound in the head with the images of computer program running(hex numbers in command line). The person affected feels pleasure at the center of the middle chest and center of forehead ?

 

Thanks.

[Lairg]

52 minutes ago, Indiken said:

@Lairg

1. What could be the purpose for UFO/flying saucer deliberately showing itself to a person ?

 

Such topics are outside mainstream (modern?) Daoist teachings.

 

Sometimes UFOs show by accident.  For example after WW2 quite a few UFOs crashed when they ran into high intensity radar beams.

 

You may recall from Sumerian writings that the Anunnaki went on strike and one of the results was the breeding of a slave race using Anunnaki genetics crossed with that of a hominid already on the planet.   Similar genetic programs still exist for other reasons.

 

There also management programs in which you may be a participant.   Some participants have booby traps - e.g. a program: if you remember this you will starve to death

 

I knew one such.  She was skeletal when I met her - as her digestive system had quit.

 

It is important to find one's spiritual source to escape such programs

 

 

 

52 minutes ago, Indiken said:

What could be the purpose of sphere of light appearing in the person's room while he is sleeping and stopping the dream and producing clanking sound in the head with the images of computer program running(hex numbers in command line). The person affected feels pleasure at the center of the middle chest and center of forehead ?

 

Spheres of light often appear in photos where they are called orbs.  Typically they are manifestations of energy bodies of non-physical entities.  I have not detected any adverse spheres of light, but I always test incoming entities no matter how pleasing their light.

 

It is common that some entities produce a tapping/knocking sound on approach.  Indeed patterns of stamps and knocks are used by various human groups to attract/alert spirits.  Perhaps the clanking was more a knocking on the vertical stream of light that enters your head - with some resonance in the stream.

 

Hex numbers.   Various contactees have had streams of numbers given to them.  Some of the crop circles contain binary code.

 

The stream of Light from On High passes through the head making a consciousness anchor in the middle of the head.  (In some cases of autism the brain is unsuited so that anchor moves to the back of the heart where it is useless)

 

The stream of Light anchors in the heart - looking like a flame.  The stream provides life force - and also divine intent that may be detected by a refined recipient.  Occasionally a visitor in human form has a second or third stream - perhaps producing an irregular heartbeat.  The additional streams are from other star systems or universes.

 

Strong pleasure in the heart is usually a good sign particularly if the attention is on the Light

 

Adverse entities, however, can induce physical pleasure/pain to manage their human assets.  Always test!

 

 

Edited February 26, 2022 by Lairg

[manitou]

7 hours ago, stirling said:

n my opinion being in alignment with the Way is precisely the same. Wu Wei is absolutely existence as "enlightened activity". Where there is "enlightened activity" there is no "self", there is alignment as some translations of Lao Tzu translate it. 

 

 

Chop wood, carry water.

[manitou]

On 2/25/2022 at 3:53 PM, Lairg said:

 

I like to think that the enlightened human has some functionality - as if some part of divine will has been delegated.

 

On the other hand there is supposed to be very good TV in heaven

 

 

 

 

I would guess that Gandhi was an enlightened one.  I remember when a reporter asked him about the movement of which Gandhi was a part, the reporter said 'you are certainly ambitious!', Gandhi said 'I hope not'.  I don't think the enlightened one needs to have a specific function, like instructing the world or anything.  I think the enlightened one finds that if he/she stays in their own lane, the things needing straightening out (usually by not-doing) come to him.  This is to be one with the current, not looking to change the stream's direction.

 

Divine will has been delegated.  That sounds dual to me.  We are divine will.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 27, 2022 by manitou

[Lairg]

1 minute ago, manitou said:

the things needing straightening out (usually by not-doing) come to him

 

Or her

 

Quite so

[Lairg]

26 minutes ago, manitou said:

Divine will has been delegated.  That sounds dual to me.  We are divine will.

 

An interesting proposition.   Obviously there are qualifications to do with the rights of other beings, often of much greater import than ourselves.

 

A friend once told me that a third degree initiate (first stage enlightenment) could (sometimes?) decide what would happen but not how.   At a further stage of enlightenment the initiate was entitled to decide how it should happen.  If true, this suggests that there are successive layers of functionality of divine will in the enlightened human.

 

What are the constraints on the personal will of a child in "the terrible twos"?   Hopefully quite a few.   

 

The personal will, while often destructive in its initial phase, forces the human to get its act together, control its bodies and environment to ensure survival.

 

 

Edited February 27, 2022 by Lairg

[manitou]

The terrible twos are when a child first becomes aware of itself as a person.  The ego has found form.

[stirling]

15 hours ago, manitou said:

I don't think the enlightened one needs to have a specific function, like instructing the world or anything.  I think the enlightened one finds that if he/she stays in their own lane, the things needing straightening out (usually by not-doing) come to him.  This is to be one with the current, not looking to change the stream's direction.

 

100% agreed. Enlightenment isn't ADDING something to a human, not an "attainment", but instead taking something away - the mistaken perspective that they were ever a "self" or separate from the fabric of what surrounds them. Being present where "they" are, and automagically acting with what wants to happen defined by the causes and conditions of this moment is all that needs to happen.

[Lairg]

2 hours ago, stirling said:

 

 Enlightenment isn't ADDING something to a human, not an "attainment", but instead taking something away -

 

So no extra light with enlightenment

[stirling]

Things become "luminous" but it doesn't exactly mean what you might think.

[Lairg]

17 minutes ago, stirling said:

Things become "luminous" but it doesn't exactly mean what you might think.

 

 

So if I want extra internal light I must look for a state other than enlightenment.  

 

Any hints?

[stirling]

1 hour ago, Lairg said:

 

 

So if I want extra internal light I must look for a state other than enlightenment.  

 

Any hints?

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "internal light". Perhaps if you explain it to me I can be helpful.

 

Enlightenment refers more toward the idea of realizing something, like when you might say "enlighten me" to someone who has more information about a situation. In this case the information is about just how amazingly flawed and incorrect ones everyday worldview and philosophical cosmology is, and the dawning of a new non-dual understanding that supersedes our illusory dualistic world view.

 

Enlightenment isn't something that comes or goes, so I wouldn't call it a state, rather I would say it is the underlying reality of everything. The understanding of the natural state of things obliterates all other knowing. It isn't just a clue about a new conceptual framework. Enlightenment is the realization that there aren't two sticks two rub together, or a you and I... there are no relationships between things, or indeed, any things at all... it is by its nature necessarily the end of questions. Cosmologies, practices, and hierarchies are all seen to be delusions... dead ends. It is the end of spiritual questing. 

[Lairg]

1 hour ago, stirling said:

like when you might say "enlighten me" to someone who has more information

 

The word information is what is called a reification - a quality or process is turned into an object and thus allegedly exists independently of actors.

 

When I have data (givens) it does not become information until I have used it to inform a decision. 

 

Thus the data from the other person may come into the form of my consciousness - informing the consciousness.   If the input is high quality (light) energy, then my consciousness may well be lightened by the receiving that energy.  The process of receiving light may be called enlightening.  

 

Where there is a permanent state of connection to the light of higher beings, the human may qualify as enlightened.

 

We see there that the  concept enlightenment regarded as a state is itself a reification of an on-going process that proceeds through unstable stages to stable stages.

 

 

Reification is very common in our society.  Perhaps education is not effective.   Educare - to draw out from within.  Mostly we  do training - to run along standard tracks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reification_(fallacy)

 

 

Edited February 28, 2022 by Lairg

[stirling]

2 hours ago, Lairg said:

 

The word information is what is called a reification - a quality or process is turned into an object and thus allegedly exists independently of actors.

 

When I have data (givens) it does not become information until I have used it to inform a decision. 

 

Thus the data from the other person may come into the form of my consciousness - informing the consciousness.   If the input is high quality (light) energy, then my consciousness may well be lightened by the receiving that energy.  The process of receiving light may be called enlightening.  

 

Where there is a permanent state of connection to the light of higher beings, the human may qualify as enlightened.

 

We see there that the  concept enlightenment regarded as a state is itself a reification of an on-going process that proceeds through unstable stages to stable stages.

 

 

Reification is very common in our society.  Perhaps education is not effective.   Educare - to draw out from within.  Mostly we  do training - to run along standard tracks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reification_(fallacy)

 

I would say that the conceptual ideas of "light', "energy", "higher beings", "humans", "stages", etc. are ALL reifications, as none of them have intrinsic reality of their own. There are ultimately no intrinsically separate things of any kind interacting. This is the underlying nature of reality.

 

In my experience non-duality does not (can not) have stages. It simply is. It is either seen, or it isn't. Non-duality is everywhere, always (which means NOW) and is free of physical or conceptual boundary. In absolute terms, it is all that there is. Seeing it is to perceive the "luminosity" of phenomena, and the reality that there is no-one seeing. All conceptual stories about it are false. It cannot be reified, since it is and always has been empty of "self" nature. To describe it is to hope to "fail well".

Edited February 28, 2022 by stirling

[Lairg]

1 hour ago, stirling said:

There are ultimately no intrinsically separate things of any kind interacting. This is the underlying nature of reality.

 

Why ever speak to other humans - other than to buy food?

[stirling]

9 hours ago, Lairg said:

Why ever speak to other humans - other than to buy food?

 

Some don't even do that. There are monks with realization that are supported by the delivery of food and other items in cultures where it is more common and the populace understands and values such pursuits. If you could bathe in the beauty of this moment and its interconnectedness you might not feel the need to get entangled in the drama of people and their stories of illusory things, or just as likely, you might find yourself compelled by your own liberation from suffering to help others find a way to ending theirs. Either way, there is eating, breathing, sleeping. The "will" that compels you isn't yours, it is the fabric of everything. Even intention arises and passes like all other phenomena, not belonging to an "I". 

 

As David Carse says:

 

Quote

"THERE IS ONLY ONE. There is not ever in any sense many, or even two. All perception of distinction and separation, of duality, and therefore of what is known as physical reality, is a mind-created illusion, of the nature of a dream. What you think you are, a separate individual entity, is part of this illusion. You are not the doer of any action or the thinker of any thought. Events happen, but there is no doer. All there is, is Consciousness. That is what You truly are." -  David Carse, "Perfect Brilliant Stillness"

 

[Lairg]

7 hours ago, stirling said:

you might not feel the need to get entangled in the drama of people and their stories of illusory things, or just as likely, you might find yourself compelled by your own liberation from suffering to help others find a way to ending theirs.

 

This is a topic of some interest as it touches on any purpose that might exist for the human race.  Options include:

 

- humans only/mainly exist to provide bodies so that spirits/souls can have dense plane experiences

- humans are decorative and provide play time for higher beings

- humans, individually or as groups, have functionality/purpose in the cosmos

- the existence of a human species is illusory like a video game 

- human existence is a once-only code

- etc

 

The mind within the human personality, by its nature, may be unable to prove or disprove these or other options. 

 

If the human had faculties that transcended the personality (persona = mask) those might unveil the cosmic (or trivial) nature of the human race.

 

 

[stirling]

One aspect of having non-dual understanding that is hard to grasp is that the very nature of it makes the underlying reality flat, meaning time, space and self. How is this expressed?

 

• Time is understood to be NOW. The past and future are thoughts appearing in the mind, but always happening now. See Eckhart Tolle.

• Space is understood to be non-dimensional. The supposed universe of objects and separateness were always a delusion. Appearances have a dreamlike quality to them. It is possible to see both the world of objects, and underlying them, their luminosity as empty.

• Self is an illusion caused by the thinking mind cobbling together experiences. Thinking mind generates a phantom world of self and other. Phenomena is seen and understood to arise and pass where it is with no label or qualities, and are not attributed to a personal being or objects with intrinsic reality. 

 

As meditator/researcher (and arhat) Daniel Ingram describes the features of perception and self there is:

 

Quote

 

1) Utter centerlessness: no watcher, no sense of a watcher, no subtle watcher, no possibility of a watcher. This is immediately obvious just as color is to a man with good eyesight as the old saying goes. Thus, anything and everything simply and obviously manifest just where they are. No phenomena observe any others and never did or could.

 

2) Utter agencylessness: meaning no agency, no sense of doing, no sense of doer, no sense that there could be any agent or doer, no way to find anything that seems to be in control at all. Whatever effort or intent or anything like that that arises does so naturally, causally, inevitably, as it always actually did. This is immediately obvious, though not always the forefront of attention.

 

3) No cycles change or stages or states or anything else like that do anything to this direct comprehension of simple truths at all.

 

4) There is no deepening in it to do. The understanding stands on its own and holds up over cycles, moods, years, etc and doesn't change at all. I have nothing to add to my initial assessment of it.

 

5) There is nothing subtle about it: anything and everything that arises exhibits these same qualities directly, clearly. 

 

 

Filling in the blanks of these points, those closest your possible might be:

 

Quote

- the existence of a human species is illusory like a video game

 

...except that the illusory quality extends to the existence of ALL phenomena you might imagine have their own existence. Ultimately the subject/object relationship is seen to be a mistaken assumption. The apparent data is the same, but without conclusions drawn as to it's ultimate past cosmology, or future due to seeing through the illusion of time.

[Lairg]

Long ago I did a course in Transcendental Meditation.   At the end of the course there were some questions.  One was:

 

- What does the person say that has experienced pure consciousness?    

 

The answer provided in the course was:  I am!

 

The human has experienced existence beyond created worlds and therefore states without qualification, context,  or received teaching:  I am!

Edited March 1, 2022 by Lairg

[stirling]

3 hours ago, Lairg said:

Long ago I did a course in Transcendental Meditation.   At the end of the course there were some questions.  One was:

 

- What does the person say that has experienced pure consciousness?    

 

The answer provided in the course was:  I am!

 

The human has experienced existence beyond created worlds and therefore states without qualification, context,  or received teaching:  I am!

 

Absolutely!

 

Only it is Self (not-two), rather than self (conceptual thinking mind) that is being discussed, and the realization is not intellectual - it is experiential. It is the difference between reading the recipe and imagining the cake versus having baked the cake, knowing its aroma, the texture of it, the color of it. The knowing "I am" is not a momentary experience, but a moment to moment one that never fades. 

[Lairg]

So when the Oneness manifested Existence, did it have a purpose?

[freeform]

9 hours ago, stirling said:

non-dual understanding

since all roads seem to lead to the non-dual teachings these days… how does the non-dual understanding see virtuous conduct. Does it play any role in cultivation?

[stirling]

10 hours ago, Lairg said:

So when the Oneness manifested Existence, did it have a purpose?

Oneness only manifests now.

 

The best place to look for this answer is in meditation when the mind is quiet and empty. Notice Oneness manifesting in this moment. Can you experience Oneness or being present in any other moment? Without a past or future, is purpose possible?

[stirling]

8 hours ago, freeform said:

since all roads seem to lead to the non-dual teachings these days… how does the non-dual understanding see virtuous conduct. Does it play any role in cultivation?

 

IMHO, when seen from the relative perspective, practicing virtuous conduct (depending on what that means) dissolves obscurations. From the absolute view virtuous conduct arises out of prajna (Wisdom) naturally.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prajñā_(Buddhism)

 

The trainings in virtuous conduct that I personally think are most likely to drop obscurations are: 

 

• Following the precepts - https://tricycle.org/magazine/the-five-precepts/

 

• Metta and/or Tonglen practice: https://www.lionsroar.com/how-to-practice-metta-for-a-troubled-time/  -   https://www.lionsroar.com/how-to-practice-tonglen/ 

 

• 7 Point Mind Training - https://www.amazon.com/Great-Path-Awakening-Commentary-Mahayana/dp/0877734208 or Norman Fischer's more "Western" version: https://www.amazon.com/Training-Compassion-Teachings-Practice-Lojong/dp/1611800404

 

The precepts do not come from the perspective of their being behaviors that are "wrong", but from preventing behaviors that cause residue/karma that you carry with you - essentially creating "self" around your behavior.  

 

Metta practice reduces "self" cherishing and encourages an outward loving kindness toward the world. Tonglen deprecates our self preservation, and encourages us to take on the suffering of others. 

 

7 Point Mind Training is complex, but does the above as well as slowly but deftly shifts our "me"-centric worldview to a more expansive way of relating to things. Amongst practices of this type it is unparalleled, IMHO. 

 

All told, the move is not moving from a bad person to a virtuous person, but from a self-centered person to a alignment with what wants to happen, and loving kindness toward all appearances. 

[doc benway]

9 hours ago, freeform said:

since all roads seem to lead to the non-dual teachings these days… how does the non-dual understanding see virtuous conduct. Does it play any role in cultivation?

 

There is a Tibetan saying from the non-dual teachings, ‘the view should be as vast as the sky and the conduct as fine as barley flour.’

 

The thing about non-duality is that it does not entail cultivation. It is not possible to cultivate non-duality, only to optimize conditions for it to blossom. Resting in the natural state is comparable to wu wei. There is no interference with the spontaneous manifestation from the source. Whatever is needed in any given moment is already there. 

 

On the other hand, if we are honest with ourselves we find that we are very often distracted/disconnected from the fundamental essence and in these circumstances it is very beneficial to practice virtuous conduct.

 

When the non-dual teachings refer to conduct it is often described “flexible” rather than virtuous. This refers to non-interference, wu wei. The advice is to continuously be present and undistracted. Consequently there are no expectations and no patterned or anticipated responses. The flexibility reflects spontaneity and non-interference.