Variances in energy bodies based on lineages

[David W]

Hello friends — I just became a member so please let me know if I should reorient this post in any way, and thanks for such a wonderful community! 

Having spent some time as a researcher of various traditions, I seem to have discovered that the resulting subtle bodies produced via internal alchemical processes does actually differ, even within one religion. What’s more, is that the destination of these consciousness transferring vehicles are often celestially oriented differently between one practitioner to the next practitioner. A specific spiritual projection or the celestial spatial locale of the internal energetic body is often determined by the beings whom rule the practitioners pantheon of gods. Most people now commonly accept that this variance of gods within a system is often a variance of stellar bodies the practitioner is drawing on. (I.E. certain internal systems differ because the stars they work with differ) 
 

Specifically pinpointing the differences in religious hierarchies and how that impacts the resultant internal energy body used for the afterlife is most interesting to me. As such, my question is what are the primary differences between energetic bodies built up within the various lineages, and what differences in underlying pantheons exists within Daoist magical systems?

Edited March 26, 2021 by David W

[dwai]

18 minutes ago, David W said:

Hello friends — I just became a member so please let me know if I should reorient this post in any way, and thanks for such a wonderful community! 

Hi David,

 

Welcome to TDB. 

18 minutes ago, David W said:

Having spent some time as a researcher of various traditions, I seem to have discovered that the resulting subtle bodies produced via internal alchemical processes does actually differ, even within one religion. What’s more, is that the destination of these consciousness transferring vehicles are often celestially oriented differently between one practitioner to the next practitioner. A specific spiritual projection or the celestial spatial locale of the internal energetic body is often determined by the beings whom rule the practitioners pantheon of gods. Most people now commonly accept that this variance of gods within a system is often a variance of stellar bodies the practitioner is drawing on. (I.E. certain internal systems differ because the stars they work with differ) 
 

Can you give some examples? It is true that conceptually, different traditions might have different perspectives on how things are categorized. But does that necessarily translate into different "subtle bodies"? My experience tells me that is not the case. For example, some traditions might consider the body having 3 aspects -- physical, subtle and causal. Others might categorize as 5 aspects -- physical, energetic, mental, intellectual and blissful and so on, or others might call these "physical, astral, causal, light, etc",  but these are more categorizations that have significant overlap and have to do with a conceptual framework being employed, imho. 

18 minutes ago, David W said:

 

Specifically pinpointing the differences in religious hierarchies and how that impacts the resultant end game internal energy body is most interesting to me. As such, my question is what are the primary differences between energetic bodies built up within the various lineages, and what differences in underlying pantheons exists within Daoist magical systems?

 

[David W]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

Hi David,

 

Welcome to TDB. 

Can you give some examples? It is true that conceptually, different traditions might have different perspectives on how things are categorized. But does that necessarily translate into different "subtle bodies"? My experience tells me that is not the case. For example, some traditions might consider the body having 3 aspects -- physical, subtle and causal. Others might categorize as 5 aspects -- physical, energetic, mental, intellectual and blissful and so on, or others might call these "physical, astral, causal, light, etc",  but these are more categorizations that have significant overlap and have to do with a conceptual framework being employed, imho. 

 

Hi there -- It would be something requiring tremendous evidence to start from ground zero, however if you are not familiar with specific examples I can perhaps provide some basic information for your consideration. Regardless I personally do not think it is a hard case to make that the internal practices of alchemists have differed somewhat throughout time. Also, obviously the 3 aspects are found in every culture and agree with you about those initial concepts.

 

But no, I do think it is reasonable to say that the energetic model and the internal practices that different practitioners used over the years have evolved significantly. A specific example of this would be to study how the spiritual temples changed throughout time and place. Can you explain to me why the priests at Angkor Wat aligned with such emphasis towards Draco, (no doubt linking it to their afterlife and inner practices), would differ from the internal alchemy alignments with Ursa Major and the 9 Star practices of the Daoists? Do you think that all of these religions end with the same afterlife then?  Maybe a clearer question for me to ask is, how it is that you think the inner structures of their energy bodies have remained the same when the symbolism and pantheons of practices can change so much...

Edited March 25, 2021 by David W

[Ursus mellifera]

I don't understand a word of this, but it sounds fascinating.

[RiverSnake]

Excellent question. Different systems work with different channels. It's very common in Taoist Energetics to focus on channels such as the MCO. Yet there are more specialized systems as well which activate different channels and cause different effects. 

 

Depending on the "temperament" of the creator...different methods will be emphasized.  

 

Trying to make a catalogue of all these different approaches....i'll leave that work to another. 

[Creation]

I don't know about the connection between stars and pantheons, but I agree that different paths develop the higher bodies in radically different ways, and this affects the place in the etheric realms that you go when you die, that you will go to be with others who have developed their higher bodies similarly through the law of resonance.

[Sketch]

 

[Bindi]

8 hours ago, David W said:

Hello friends — I just became a member so please let me know if I should reorient this post in any way, and thanks for such a wonderful community! 

Having spent some time as a researcher of various traditions, I seem to have discovered that the resulting subtle bodies produced via internal alchemical processes does actually differ, even within one religion. What’s more, is that the destination of these consciousness transferring vehicles are often celestially oriented differently between one practitioner to the next practitioner. A specific spiritual projection or the celestial spatial locale of the internal energetic body is often determined by the beings whom rule the practitioners pantheon of gods. Most people now commonly accept that this variance of gods within a system is often a variance of stellar bodies the practitioner is drawing on. (I.E. certain internal systems differ because the stars they work with differ) 
 

Specifically pinpointing the differences in religious hierarchies and how that impacts the resultant end game internal energy body is most interesting to me. As such, my question is what are the primary differences between energetic bodies built up within the various lineages, and what differences in underlying pantheons exists within Daoist magical systems?

I believe all people have the same potential energy body, and that there is a fundamental energy body blueprint that desires to be manifested,  but accessing that blueprint is almost impossible. I think that some of these fundamental blueprint outcomes are recorded in the Daoist and neidan literature, but these outcomes are mostly practised as the method, using mental intention. These intentions, having been produced at various times by various people’s normal minds, are so random that the result is inevitably an energy body that is incomplete or lopsided or odd in some way. For me I see evidence in some of the Daoist/neidan literature of someone or some people Millenia ago who were in possession of the authentic blueprint,  which as far as I’m concerned lends credibility to many of the principles of Daoism. 

[David W]

2 hours ago, Sketch said:

 

 

Well said, indeed. Decisions, decisions...

[David W]

4 hours ago, RiverSnake said:

Excellent question. Different systems work with different channels. It's very common in Taoist Energetics to focus on channels such as the MCO. Yet there are more specialized systems as well which activate different channels and cause different effects. 

 

Depending on the "temperament" of the creator...different methods will be emphasized.  

 

Trying to make a catalogue of all these different approaches....i'll leave that work to another. 

 

Hi RiverSnake! Thanks for commenting. At the moment I seem to be persuaded, in agreement with what you mentioned above, that different systems do in fact work with objectively different energies. There are some who think however that this difference in methodology for cultivating energy results in the same destination, and while I think this has some evidence to be the case in the very distant long term, within the foreseeable future I wonder how the afterlife differs amongst practitioners who utilize different energies. Understanding the specific trajectory of the soul after this lifetime seems to be my primary interest. Any thoughts on how the differences in these systems might result in a different spiritual locale for the energetic body being built?

Edited March 26, 2021 by David W

[dwai]

7 hours ago, David W said:

Hi there -- It would be something requiring tremendous evidence to start from ground zero, however if you are not familiar with specific examples I can perhaps provide some basic information for your consideration. Regardless I personally do not think it is a hard case to make that the internal practices of alchemists have differed somewhat throughout time. Also, obviously the 3 aspects are found in every culture and agree with you about those initial concepts.

practices have indeed varied in outer appearance, but there’s still the same subtle channels, etc.

For example, one doesn’t develop two central channels instead of one when following different systems. They might focus on different aspects of the subtle body, but not so much in terms of “subtle anatomy”, any more than we’d develop two hearts, five kidneys etc if we did yogic vs daoist practices...

 

Quote

 

But no, I do think it is reasonable to say that the energetic model and the internal practices that different practitioners used over the years have evolved significantly. A specific example of this would be to study how the spiritual temples changed throughout time and place. Can you explain to me why the priests at Angkor Wat aligned with such emphasis towards Draco, (no doubt linking it to their afterlife and inner practices), would differ from the internal alchemy alignments with Ursa Major and the 9 Star practices of the Daoists? Do you think that all of these religions end with the same afterlife then?  Maybe a clearer question for me to ask is, how it is that you think the inner structures of their energy bodies have remained the same when the symbolism and pantheons of practices can change so much...

And you think the alignment is due to subtle body anatomy?
 

What is “afterlife” according to you?  
 

i missed the bolded part earlier. My answer for that is, I know that about subtle anatomy just like I know that the physical anatomy doesn’t change if we speak are born in India or China or North America, or religion one practices or beliefs one has. 

Edited March 26, 2021 by dwai

[David W]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

I believe all people have the same potential energy body, and that there is a fundamental energy body blueprint that desires to be manifested,  but accessing that blueprint is almost impossible. I think that some of these fundamental blueprint outcomes are recorded in the Daoist and neidan literature, but these outcomes are mostly practised as the method, using mental intention. These intentions, having been produced at various times by various people’s normal minds, are so random that the result is inevitably an energy body that is incomplete or lopsided or odd in some way. For me I see evidence in some of the Daoist/neidan literature of someone or some people Millenia ago who were in possession of the authentic blueprint,  which as far as I’m concerned lends credibility to many of the principles of Daoism. 

 

Hi Bindi -- before I comment on how I do not fundamentally agree that all people have an entirely identical subtle energy body, I wanted to mention something relating to the bioenergetics of the physical bodies vs. internal spiritual bodies created through inner alchemy. I think we would all agree their is an objective system of 'channels' and energy centers of the nodes and organs. Practitioners are generally informed of this early on...to be eventually shown how they are to use a developmental system to build an internal energetic body they will utilize in the after life. Regardless of the energetic principles constant for physical bodies, I am primarily concerned with the differences of energetic vessels created within, for the soul. These later vessels seem to be much more targeted, for example at a specific god, heaven, or other realm. As such I am wondering how differences in modern internal alchemy practices could result in a different spiritual locale for the practitioners once the internal energy body is birthed.

Edited March 26, 2021 by David W

[David W]

4 hours ago, Creation said:

I don't know about the connection between stars and pantheons, but I agree that different paths develop the higher bodies in radically different ways, and this affects the place in the etheric realms that you go when you die, that you will go to be with others who have developed their higher bodies similarly through the law of resonance.

 

Hi -- very much agreed. I am mostly curious about the specific differences of the various paths and how they result in different higher bodies and the realms they are connected to!

Edited March 26, 2021 by David W

[David W]

10 minutes ago, dwai said:

practices have indeed varied in outer appearance, but there’s still the same subtle channels, etc.

For example, one doesn’t develop two central channels instead of one when following different systems. They might focus on different aspects of the subtle body, but not so much in terms of “subtle anatomy”, any more than we’d develop two hearts, five kidneys etc if we did yogic vs daoist practices...

 

And you think the alignment is due to subtle body anatomy?
 

What is “afterlife” according to you?  
 

i missed the bolded part earlier. My answer for that is, I know that about subtle anatomy just like I know that the physical anatomy doesn’t change if we speak are born in India or China or North America, or religion one practices or beliefs one has. 

 

Great responses! I do not think the subtle body is a result of aligning with the stars alone. That would be very basic, such as the mistake history channel 'egyptologists' make by trying to superimpose Orion's belt onto Giza. But no, I feel the energy from the stars are utilized, whether purely symbolically, or through some ritualistic means of connecting with the higher dimensional energetic current they represent, to cultivate specific energies within the soul in order to development an inner body used after death. My suggestion is this: when someone is working with these specific energies on their internal energetic body throughout life, will their practices have objectively different influences on their energy body, compared to those whom develop a different internal energy body using different stars. Really... that is my question... I am quite sure they do differ at the higher levels, but am here to learn why and how (=

 

[dwai]

1 hour ago, David W said:

I am quite sure they do differ at the higher levels, but am here to learn why and how (=

My question is, why are you so sure? There are three ways of knowing something —

* direct experience (eg,. You see a fire so you know there’s a fire) 

* testimony of reliable witnesses (reliable sources told you there is a fire) 

* inference (you’ve seen smoke in the horizon, and infer that there must be a fire).

On which of the above do you base your knowledge (of being sure)? 

[David W]

3 minutes ago, dwai said:

My question is, why are you so sure? There are three ways of knowing something —

* direct experience (eg,. You see a fire so you know there’s a fire) 

* testimony of reliable witnesses (reliable sources told you there is a fire) 

* inference (you’ve seen smoke in the horizon, and infer that there must be a fire).

On which of the above do you base your knowledge (of being sure)? 

Well, I'd say all those categories are verifiably true for me, but thank you. Are you saying you need me  to answer this because you fundamentally do not think that there are differences in the subtle bodies of different practices? Could I ask you to pls answer with what information you have on this topic specifically, rather than going any further into the checklist idea.

[dwai]

7 minutes ago, David W said:

Well, I'd say all those categories are verifiably true for me, but thank you. Are you saying you need me  to answer this because you fundamentally do not think that there are differences in the subtle bodies of different practices? Could I ask you to pls answer with what information you have on this topic specifically, rather than going any further into the checklist idea.

Direct experience  
I train in both daoist neigong as well as the yogic path (Kriya). I’ve done several years of Tamil siddhar yoga practice too. 
 

I’m trying to understand what you mean by differences in subtle bodies because I’ve not seen any differences. Subtle bodies are not dependent on any practice, anymore than physical bodies are dependent on them. Subtle bodies exist as deterministically as physical bodies do. Causal bodies, now, that is another matter — it depends on karmic accumulations (habits and tendencies developed over several lifetimes).

 

Edited March 26, 2021 by dwai

[RiverSnake]

4 hours ago, David W said:

 

Hi RiverSnake! Thanks for commenting. At the moment I seem to be persuaded, in agreement with what you mentioned above, that different systems do in fact work with objectively different energies. There are some who think however that this difference in methodology for cultivating energy results in the same destination, and while I think this has some evidence to be the case in the very distant long term, within the foreseeable future I wonder how the afterlife differs amongst practitioners who utilize different energies. Understanding the specific trajectory of the soul after this lifetime seems to be my primary interest. Any thoughts on how the differences in these systems might result in a different spiritual locale for the energetic body being built?

 

Developing maps and learning how to navigate Life and the Bardo is something that every practitioner should invest some time studying (IMO). Some spiritual traditions have specific practices meant to prepare you for this transition.

 

Its a complicated topic and something i am still studying....so i will add some general caveats. The ideal state is to pass from the body in a state of awareness. The other end of the spectrum (not ideal) is to have a sudden, clingy and traumatic death. 

 

A highly smooth vs chaotic transition.

 

IME it is a very real risk of becoming stuck in transition or find yourself in unfriendly realms. Another general thumb is that the more experience you have as a "traveler", while your alive....the easier it is to navigate the other-side. Developing spiritual connections with psychopomps and actively preparing for your inevitable demise makes you ahead of the curb. 

 

Working towards profound OBE can also help give you a feel for the "after-state". The more "spiritually empowered" you are, the easier it is to navigate subtle realms. Being connected to a Lineage or specific currents of energy can have implications to where you may naturally gravitate in the Bardo. The more skilled you are, the easier you can travel without issue. Think drunken tourist vs seasoned adventurer.    

[Master Logray]

For Taoist Neidan, astral bodies, gods, deities and stars are generally not part of the pursuit, nor necessitated in any major way. 

[David W]

On 3/26/2021 at 1:57 AM, RiverSnake said:

 

Developing maps and learning how to navigate Life and the Bardo is something that every practitioner should invest some time studying (IMO). Some spiritual traditions have specific practices meant to prepare you for this transition.

.....

 

IME it is a very real risk of becoming stuck in transition or find yourself in unfriendly realms. Another general thumb is that the more experience you have as a "traveler", while your alive....the easier it is to navigate the other-side. Developing spiritual connections with psychopomps and actively preparing for your inevitable demise makes you ahead of the curb. 

 

Working towards profound OBE can also help give you a feel for the "after-state". The more "spiritually empowered" you are, the easier it is to navigate subtle realms. Being connected to a Lineage or specific currents of energy can have implications to where you may naturally gravitate in the Bardo. The more skilled you are, the easier you can travel without issue. Think drunken tourist vs seasoned adventurer.    

RiverSnake most appreciated. I’ve looked at the process in the Bardo, Tibetan book of the dead, and the Egyptian book of coming forth by day, amongst various texts. Not only do I agree it should be something worth studying, I feel strongly that getting a clear idea on the development to begin aligning ourselves now, for then, is most prudent. Regarding developing maps, maybe even a circulatory inner grotto journey mirroring this process, would be super fascinating to me. If you could suggest maybe a lineage or practice that specifically focuses on this issue of developing the inner body to best navigate this transition, I would be exceedingly grateful!

Edited March 29, 2021 by David W

[David W]

2 hours ago, Master Logray said:

For Taoist Neidan, astral bodies, gods, deities and stars are generally not part of the pursuit, nor necessitated in any major way. 

Thank you Master Logray. Can I ask you then why certain lineages base the attainment of perfection through encountering ‘cosmic’ entities within the internal grottos? Are these just abstractions or objectively external consciousnesses? I have heard many a teacher relate that there are no spirits involved only to discover later on that they are very much part of the whole process. I would certainly be interested in learning more about a system that works to purely develop the innate human energies however. Specifically, are you saying the pinnacle of development within Neidan is accomplished without the contact of any beings from the Daoist pantheon?

[Ursus mellifera]

3 minutes ago, David W said:

Specifically, are you saying the pinnacle of development within Neidan is accomplished without the contact of any beings from the Daoist pantheon?

 

I love this concept, and would like to know more, as well. If, for example, I'm in good with Anubis or Hermes, does that work just as well? I know far more about Daoism as a practice than I do as a theology, whereas I know a lot about various theologies, polytheistic or otherwise.

 

[Cleansox]

16 minutes ago, David W said:

Thank you Master Logray. Can I ask you then why certain lineages base the attainment of perfection through encountering ‘cosmic’ entities within the internal grottos?

Because "nei dan" is an umbrella term, in reality "anything goes". 

The Zhong-Lu tradition isn't the only one. 

16 minutes ago, David W said:

 Specifically, are you saying the pinnacle of development within Neidan is accomplished without the contact of any beings from the Daoist pantheon?

Since some Nei Dan practitioners have had immortal teachers, do you consider them "beings from the Daoist panthenon"? 

 

And, which tradition would be considered the pinnacle? 

 

Except, by all means, mine.... 😁 

[David W]

7 minutes ago, Ursus mellifera said:

 

I love this concept, and would like to know more, as well. If, for example, I'm in good with Anubis or Hermes, does that work just as well? I know far more about Daoism as a practice than I do as a theology, whereas I know a lot about various theologies, polytheistic or otherwise.

 

I think the ancients certainly believed their inner energy practices uniquely reflected the gods they were in relationship with. They no doubt believed they would join them in the afterlife. They believed in specific names and detailed locations of mythical lands, it certainly was not the universal syncretistic abstract systems we see where modern practitioners say it’s all the same..... My theory is that these differences are present and fundamentally come down to different pantheons, and thus their inner energetic workings can be different as well. It’s one thing to say that all of the 10,000 things come back into unity eventually, but regardless I seriously doubt the afterlife is exactly the same for each practitioner and that the energy body they’ve developed is exactly the same. If someone could explain what these specific differences are, I would gain understanding regarding the different paths towards the afterlife and the more precise goal for birthing the inner body.

 

 

[Ursus mellifera]

15 minutes ago, David W said:

My theory is that these differences are present and fundamentally come down to different pantheons, and thus their inner energetic workings can be different as well. 

 

 

 

It certainly makes sense to me. All theologies have prayers and rites, and they all vary from each other, if only slightly in some cases. The variations in those would create variations in the energies produced by them.