East is East and West is West

[Apech]

1 hour ago, Taomeow said:

Traduttore traditore applies in all cases. 

 

 

This really is the heart of the matter.

 

 

[dwai]

1 hour ago, Taomeow said:

Traduttore traditore applies in all cases. 

Inadvertent or deliberate? 

[Taomeow]

35 minutes ago, dwai said:

Inadvertent or deliberate? 

 

As Homer Simpson put it, a little from column A and a little from column B.  

[manitou]

This is my view of enlightenment.  I don't know if it matches anyone else's or not.

 

There's nothing out there in the sky that's gonna save us.

 

Rather than worshipping something external to you, realize that you're it.

 

All the accumulated intelligence that holds matter together in various forms is the same intelligence that is Us.  

 

In this dimension at least, we appear to be either the most intelligent species in the world, or the most stupid, depending on the day.

 

Love and mutual attraction are probably the same thing.  Love just involves more consciousness.

 

The Daodejing contains all you need to know, and in the most economical fashion.  Best to triangulate different translations.

 

Enlightenment isn't achieved without going through our own ego.  The blockages of prior conditioning must be removed for a shot at clarity.

 

Sometimes you get to just swell with joy when for a moment you realize your connection with the beauty in front of you.

 

You realize money is nothing more than stuck energy.   We become open to situations that present themselves  in everyday life.  If I can help anonymously, so much the better.  If I can't, that's good too.  You realize that the only prize worth having is peace of heart.  But you don't know that until you have peace of heart, so it's a bit of a catch-22.

 

You realize that we are all one entity; when that is held in consciousness, there is never a reason for strife.  It would be like one arm of an octopus fighting with another. 

 

You are reminded of who you are, who we all are, whenever you look into the pupils of another being - be it human, equine, canine, insect, croc, anything.  The soul-to-soul meeting of the eyes will flow down to the most peaceful level; this is why nothing bad happens to the sage.

 

Enlightenment and self-realization are the same thing.  Self-realization is after going in to self and doing a sincere job, you finally get to really understand the ending of the Wizard of Oz.

 

That's my idea, anyway.  And the ending to the Wizard of Oz is fabulous, once you get used to the idea.  Then it just becomes a matter of dealing with the ramifications of the realization.  That's a learning process too.

 

 

 

 

[Indiken]

17 hours ago, manitou said:

This is my view of enlightenment.  I don't know if it matches anyone else's or not.

 

There's nothing out there in the sky that's gonna save us.

 

Rather than worshipping something external to you, realize that you're it.

 

All the accumulated intelligence that holds matter together in various forms is the same intelligence that is Us.  

 

In this dimension at least, we appear to be either the most intelligent species in the world, or the most stupid, depending on the day.

 

Love and mutual attraction are probably the same thing.  Love just involves more consciousness.

 

The Daodejing contains all you need to know, and in the most economical fashion.  Best to triangulate different translations.

 

Enlightenment isn't achieved without going through our own ego.  The blockages of prior conditioning must be removed for a shot at clarity.

 

Sometimes you get to just swell with joy when for a moment you realize your connection with the beauty in front of you.

 

You realize money is nothing more than stuck energy.   We become open to situations that present themselves  in everyday life.  If I can help anonymously, so much the better.  If I can't, that's good too.  You realize that the only prize worth having is peace of heart.  But you don't know that until you have peace of heart, so it's a bit of a catch-22.

 

You realize that we are all one entity; when that is held in consciousness, there is never a reason for strife.  It would be like one arm of an octopus fighting with another. 

 

You are reminded of who you are, who we all are, whenever you look into the pupils of another being - be it human, equine, canine, insect, croc, anything.  The soul-to-soul meeting of the eyes will flow down to the most peaceful level; this is why nothing bad happens to the sage.

 

Enlightenment and self-realization are the same thing.  Self-realization is after going in to self and doing a sincere job, you finally get to really understand the ending of the Wizard of Oz.

 

That's my idea, anyway.  And the ending to the Wizard of Oz is fabulous, once you get used to the idea.  Then it just becomes a matter of dealing with the ramifications of the realization.  That's a learning process too.

 

 

 

 

 

.

Edited April 19, 2021 by Indiken

[silent thunder]

9 hours ago, manitou said:

This is my view of enlightenment.  I don't know if it matches anyone else's or not.

 

There's nothing out there in the sky that's gonna save us.

 

Rather than worshipping something external to you, realize that you're it.

 

All the accumulated intelligence that holds matter together in various forms is the same intelligence that is Us.  

 

In this dimension at least, we appear to be either the most intelligent species in the world, or the most stupid, depending on the day.

 

Love and mutual attraction are probably the same thing.  Love just involves more consciousness.

 

The Daodejing contains all you need to know, and in the most economical fashion.  Best to triangulate different translations.

 

Enlightenment isn't achieved without going through our own ego.  The blockages of prior conditioning must be removed for a shot at clarity.

 

Sometimes you get to just swell with joy when for a moment you realize your connection with the beauty in front of you.

 

You realize money is nothing more than stuck energy.   We become open to situations that present themselves  in everyday life.  If I can help anonymously, so much the better.  If I can't, that's good too.  You realize that the only prize worth having is peace of heart.  But you don't know that until you have peace of heart, so it's a bit of a catch-22.

 

You realize that we are all one entity; when that is held in consciousness, there is never a reason for strife.  It would be like one arm of an octopus fighting with another. 

 

You are reminded of who you are, who we all are, whenever you look into the pupils of another being - be it human, equine, canine, insect, croc, anything.  The soul-to-soul meeting of the eyes will flow down to the most peaceful level; this is why nothing bad happens to the sage.

 

Enlightenment and self-realization are the same thing.  Self-realization is after going in to self and doing a sincere job, you finally get to really understand the ending of the Wizard of Oz.

 

That's my idea, anyway.  And the ending to the Wizard of Oz is fabulous, once you get used to the idea.  Then it just becomes a matter of dealing with the ramifications of the realization.  That's a learning process too.

 

Wow... timing.  Synchronicity.  Deep gratitude manitou.

 

When blockage releases, or is dissolved, realization and liberation are simultaneous.

Past and Future are now and realization unfolds in beingness as it is, in this presence.

 

So grateful that you and others of similar ken are willing to share their time and insights.

Such gifts are real treasure to me, like water on a hot day.

 

 

[Limahong]

2 hours ago, silent thunder said:

Past and Future are now and realization unfolds in beingness as it is, in this presence.

 

Hi Creighton,

 

The Past Present and Future are each one moment of ONE ~ the "beingness as it is"?

 

At this very moment of our "presence" or "beingness" ~ it is NIGHT for me in the East... and DAY for you in the West.

 

Does "East is East" and West is West" ~ matter to me?

 

No ~ not at all. 

 

Why?

 

At this moment I am only happy for my friend receiving such "gifts" ~  likened  to a "real treasure to me, like water on a hot day".

 

 

Keep well and safe.

 

- Anand

 

[Master Logray]

14 hours ago, manitou said:

The Daodejing contains all you need to know, and in the most economical fashion.  Best to triangulate different translations.

 

How you arrive at this ?  given there are so many Taoist and Buddhist classics.   Triangulate translation is a very good suggestion to everyone.

[stirling]

1 hour ago, Master Logray said:

 

How you arrive at this ?  given there are so many Taoist and Buddhist classics.   Triangulate translation is a very good suggestion to everyone.

 

What is needed is VERY simple, and has never been hidden. In fact, the duality of things in this world is ALWAYS pointing it its intrinsic, deeper non-dual reality, once you know what you are looking for. 

 

At its simplest it is in the Daodejing, but also, perhaps even more simply in the Heart Sutra, Bahiya Sutra and Tsin Tsin Ming. The teachings are always widely available.  

[stirling]

17 hours ago, manitou said:

This is my view of enlightenment.  I don't know if it matches anyone else's or not.

 

There's nothing out there in the sky that's gonna save us.

 

Rather than worshipping something external to you, realize that you're it.

 

All the accumulated intelligence that holds matter together in various forms is the same intelligence that is Us.  

 

In this dimension at least, we appear to be either the most intelligent species in the world, or the most stupid, depending on the day.

 

Love and mutual attraction are probably the same thing.  Love just involves more consciousness.

 

The Daodejing contains all you need to know, and in the most economical fashion.  Best to triangulate different translations.

 

Enlightenment isn't achieved without going through our own ego.  The blockages of prior conditioning must be removed for a shot at clarity.

 

Sometimes you get to just swell with joy when for a moment you realize your connection with the beauty in front of you.

 

You realize money is nothing more than stuck energy.   We become open to situations that present themselves  in everyday life.  If I can help anonymously, so much the better.  If I can't, that's good too.  You realize that the only prize worth having is peace of heart.  But you don't know that until you have peace of heart, so it's a bit of a catch-22.

 

You realize that we are all one entity; when that is held in consciousness, there is never a reason for strife.  It would be like one arm of an octopus fighting with another. 

 

You are reminded of who you are, who we all are, whenever you look into the pupils of another being - be it human, equine, canine, insect, croc, anything.  The soul-to-soul meeting of the eyes will flow down to the most peaceful level; this is why nothing bad happens to the sage.

 

Enlightenment and self-realization are the same thing.  Self-realization is after going in to self and doing a sincere job, you finally get to really understand the ending of the Wizard of Oz.

 

That's my idea, anyway.  And the ending to the Wizard of Oz is fabulous, once you get used to the idea.  Then it just becomes a matter of dealing with the ramifications of the realization.  That's a learning process too.

 

A beautiful meditation on things as they are. It's always fascinating to me to see how it is reflected differently in each reflection. 

[Apech]

I'm very happy that this thread has sparked some discussion.  I'm particularly, now, interested in the translation of the untranslatable ( @Taomeow thank you) ... but in the sense that it's almost an unachievable task that we all engage in.  A lot of what's happened and gone wrong with the interaction East and West has been poor translation, particularly things like the various dharma traditions and also/especially the Chinese traditions of Daoism and so on.  In fact I guess you could say that if you leave out the really old stuff - the indigenous South American, Siberian, Australasian and so on - you've got three big cultural spheres of Europe, India and China (including all the cluster nations).  What we encounter mostly is the attempts by Europeans to assimilate the Indian and Chinese ways of thinking/ways of being - and getting it wrong (much of the time).  That's not to say there's no benefit.  It might be that we are witnessing and taking part in a new synthesis - like for instance a Western Daoism.  If you consider for instance the impact of the I Ching on the West - it is probably quite major - even more than we ordinarily can see.

 

The problem as I see it with actual translations is that they have major interference from the author and the language (usually English) - but even more so they are not usually serious attempts to perform a translation ... which I note can mean the moving of the bones or relics of a saint from one place to another   ... in fact the bones are usually left in place and what is presented is the authors projections.  If the bones - the actual truths in the original text - are to be transferred then there must be some deep process which has to take place before we can any confidence in what we are being told.

 

 

 

 

[Taomeow]

This is somewhat tangential, but I got curious and dug up the following morsel of food for thought. 

 

40% of all people in the world are monolingual, 43% are bilingual, and the remaining 17% are fluent in more than 2 languages. 

 

In the UK, 68% are monolingual.

In the US, 80% .

in Russia, somewhere between 80-90%. 
 

I think this means something...  in terms of people's ability to comprehend another culture's thought process, "translate" it adequately and form mutually realistic images of "the other."  After all, it's a learned skill, to understand what the "other" is on about.  And realistic learning can only happen via experiential immersion -- the deeper the better.  Any other kind is superficial and, for the most part, illusory.

 

The advantage of taoist learning is that a lot of it can be immersive while bypassing the head almost entirely.  It's not that the head is useless -- but for many (not all of course) things taoist, it's optional.  Monkey see, monkey do.  You understand if your body understands -- that kind of learning.  Me like.    

[Master Logray]

5 hours ago, Apech said:

I'm very happy that this thread has sparked some discussion.  I'm particularly, now, interested in the translation of the untranslatable ( @Taomeow thank you) ... but in the sense that it's almost an unachievable task that we all engage in.  A lot of what's happened and gone wrong with the interaction East and West has been poor translation, particularly things like the various dharma traditions and also/especially the Chinese traditions of Daoism and so on.  In fact I guess you could say that if you leave out the really old stuff - the indigenous South American, Siberian, Australasian and so on - you've got three big cultural spheres of Europe, India and China (including all the cluster nations).  What we encounter mostly is the attempts by Europeans to assimilate the Indian and Chinese ways of thinking/ways of being - and getting it wrong (much of the time).  That's not to say there's no benefit.  It might be that we are witnessing and taking part in a new synthesis - like for instance a Western Daoism.  If you consider for instance the impact of the I Ching on the West - it is probably quite major - even more than we ordinarily can see.

 

The problem as I see it with actual translations is that they have major interference from the author and the language (usually English) - but even more so they are not usually serious attempts to perform a translation ... which I note can mean the moving of the bones or relics of a saint from one place to another   ... in fact the bones are usually left in place and what is presented is the authors projections.  If the bones - the actual truths in the original text - are to be transferred then there must be some deep process which has to take place before we can any confidence in what we are being told.

 

 

I think your thread was intended for east and west in terms of location, not culture?

 

Translation is a problem.  In fact the most difficult thing in this forum is for me to translate.   But don't blame the English translation, modern Chinese can't understand the ancient text well or simply project their thoughts on the old texts.  And even writers of a few hundred years ago could not agree on some of the even earlier texts. 

 

[Apech]

4 hours ago, Master Logray said:

 

I think your thread was intended for east and west in terms of location, not culture?

 

Translation is a problem.  In fact the most difficult thing in this forum is for me to translate.   But don't blame the English translation, modern Chinese can't understand the ancient text well or simply project their thoughts on the old texts.  And even writers of a few hundred years ago could not agree on some of the even earlier texts. 

 

 

Both probably - although it's quite hard to establish what is what in terms of geography and culture - also language groups.

 

 

[manitou]

22 hours ago, Master Logray said:

 

How you arrive at this ?  given there are so many Taoist and Buddhist classics.   Triangulate translation is a very good suggestion to everyone.

 

 

I've studied different translations over the years.  I'm a great fan of the sutras as well, Avatamsaka, Lotus - I've studied many.  But it seems to me that it all boils down to the simplicity of the DDJ.  The dynamics alluded to in the DDJ are subtle, but seem to cover the whole range of mystical knowledge and the dynamics of 'how things work'.

 

My observation only.

 

 

Edited April 20, 2021 by manitou

[Apech]

12 hours ago, Master Logray said:

 

I think your thread was intended for east and west in terms of location, not culture?

 

Translation is a problem.  In fact the most difficult thing in this forum is for me to translate.   But don't blame the English translation, modern Chinese can't understand the ancient text well or simply project their thoughts on the old texts.  And even writers of a few hundred years ago could not agree on some of the even earlier texts. 

 

 

I think that English translations are necessary in order to open up and make these texts accessible to a wide audience in the West - but unfortunately they can be quite misleading.  To make them readable the translators usually choose some 'equivalent' English terms which are only vaguely related to the original ideas and so on.  I know this from my own studies of Ancient Egypt in that I wasted many years working my way through the academically best translations ... but it wasn't until I went back to the original texts and indeed their contextual placing and going through all the key terms and names and so on, seeing relationships between them, understanding their cultural meaning that I began to get anywhere at all.  You don't have to be fluent, or indeed a translator yourself to do this if you have the right resources but in terms of what we are interested in, you do have to be prepared to put in the work and also be a practitioner to stand any chance at all.

 

Triangulation is one possible way to get round this I agree if your personal insight is strong enough this will guide you.

 

 

[Limahong]

3 hours ago, manitou said:

But it seems to me that it all boils down to the simplicity of the DDJ.  The dynamics alluded to in the DDJ are subtle, but seem to cover the whole range of mystical knowledge and the dynamics of 'how things work'.

 

My observation only.

 

Hi Barbara,

 

My observation too ~ but without words.

 

Why ~ no words?

 

I am an apple tree ~ embracing and 'applying' the DDJ.

 

As an apple tree in Nature ~ I have a fruitful time.

 

Is this 'how things work' in Nature?

 

Yes ~ help yourself to/with... ONE.

 

 

Trust me ~ you can live well without words.

 

- Anand

 

 

 

Edited April 20, 2021 by Limahong
Enhancement

[Apech]

@Limahong

 

I don't think you are literally an apple tree

 

 

[Limahong]

4 minutes ago, Apech said:

I don't think you are literally an apple tree

 

I am literally...

 

 

 

[Apech]

So I'm not really sure what conclusion we reached about the original question as to whether there are subtle body differences between East and West - and if so how much is energetic arising out of the earth's field and how much is cultural.  In fact to what degree are the two interdependent.  This is confused perhaps by the fact that Westerners (i.e. Europeans) have spread round the globe - I don't like the phrase cultural appropriation but it seems to me that the European mind has swallowed whole some Eastern systems and regurgitated something of its own.  Not necessarily invalid but clearly not the original.  A lot of Westerners calling themselves Daoist - are probably not Daoist in the true sense of the word.

 

People are maybe 90% emotion and the Western emotional state is different to the Eastern.  Western rationality is an emotional state (oddly) although it tends to deny this.  I suspect that this has pushed our minds into over focussing on the UDT - hence the obsession with brains and heads and this may have distorted our subtle bodies away from the natural, away from more heart focus.

 

The history of Europe is one of almost continuous war - this might be partly due to the number of countries jam packed together in what is a relatively (compared to Asia or Africa) small corrugated land mass.  Ever since the fall of the Western Roman Empire there has been a battle over who is entitled to govern and the right form of government - which saw its culmination in WWI and WWII - and its astounding to think that when France fought Germany it was essentially the Western and Eastern halves of Charlemagne's empire trying to reform (i.e. Frankia and the Holy Roman Empire) - a struggle which persisted in various forms since 9th Century.

 

?

[Apech]

7 minutes ago, Limahong said:

 

I am literally...

 

 

 

 

Are you sure you are not there already?

[Limahong]

5 minutes ago, Apech said:

Are you sure you are not there already?

 

Literally `~ yes.

[Nungali]

10 hours ago, Apech said:

So I'm not really sure what conclusion we reached about the original question as to whether there are subtle body differences between East and West - and if so how much is energetic arising out of the earth's field and how much is cultural.  In fact to what degree are the two interdependent.  This is confused perhaps by the fact that Westerners (i.e. Europeans) have spread round the globe - I don't like the phrase cultural appropriation but it seems to me that the European mind has swallowed whole some Eastern systems and regurgitated something of its own.  Not necessarily invalid but clearly not the original.  A lot of Westerners calling themselves Daoist - are probably not Daoist in the true sense of the word.

 

I think locational differences , as far as subtle energies go are related to N - S  , not E - W , I cant see a dynamic t create that . The other influences here are climate and geography .   Here, we have been stable for years yet others live next to erupting magma pits .  I think the cultural / earth energetic fields are related , but more by locality .   I would be rather nervous living near an active volcano .

 

I[I am remembering camping out at Rotorua, ( highly geologically active )   sleeping on the ground was crazy .... I could feel its 'thinness' and the surging energy down there  [ trucks drove past and the  noise and vibration felt hollow ]

 

Even the natives seemed    'volatile' and 'volcanic'  ! 

 

 

 

 

I have always felt more attracted to the western traditions , though they are  more esoteric and hidden ( in the east its mostly exoteric ) and a little bemuse at all these Aussies running around trying to adapt to eastern systems  - even though my tradition is eclectic - there is no prohibition on 'getting into' eastern stuff, but you 'curriculum' and the way its set up in stages of progress is a western model . . But location is important  ... its the land we live on and the enrgy we live in . So  My main focus has been ' blood and land' ; my  'genetic traditions' and 'local' shamanism .

 

 

Quote

 

People are maybe 90% emotion and the Western emotional state is different to the Eastern.  Western rationality is an emotional state (oddly) although it tends to deny this.  I suspect that this has pushed our minds into over focussing on the UDT - hence the obsession with brains and heads and this may have distorted our subtle bodies away from the natural, away from more heart focus.

 

We are 'top heavy'  one notices that with martial arts  - and men more so than women . But I suspect it might be conditional  - eg  this has happened so many times in training ;

 

Me;   " Push  me "   ( or , when they are in an advantages position, at the beginning of a lock , throw or take down ) ... " Now push !   ...

 

no   PUSH  !   ... push !   surge through ....  "    Nope  .   " Right , forget all that , come over to the car  ... its stuck on a flat spo with a flat battery .  Do you think you can psh it forward ? "   As soon as they start to , even before hands on  ... ' Stop !   Now look at what you are doing , you instinctivly spread your feet, bent your knees a little , lowered your centre  , etc   now do that when you 'push'  me .

 

People 'face off' puffing out their chests and lifting their shoulders up  ..... look out if the appear calmer and 'sink' a little .

 

 

Quote

 

The history of Europe is one of almost continuous war - this might be partly due to the number of countries jam packed together in what is a relatively (compared to Asia or Africa) small corrugated land mass.  Ever since the fall of the Western Roman Empire there has been a battle over who is entitled to govern and the right form of government - which saw its culmination in WWI and WWII - and its astounding to think that when France fought Germany it was essentially the Western and Eastern halves of Charlemagne's empire trying to reform (i.e. Frankia and the Holy Roman Empire) - a struggle which persisted in various forms since 9th Century.

 

?

 

Well, I think you  heard me before on this , my 'raid and run' theory of human aggression .  Most societies seemed more peaceful with each other  until the Indo Europeans started charging all over the place on their new horse critters  -  IE and horses and some others ( like Vikings and their ships ) - when one thinks one  can escape the consequences of their actions , those actions become irresponsible .

 

 

Edited April 22, 2021 by Nungali

[Nungali]

9 hours ago, Limahong said:

 

Literally `~ yes.

 

Congratulations on your graduation  then .

 

[Apech]

2 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

I think locational differences , as far as subtle energies go are related to N - S  , not E - W , I cant see a dynamic t create that . The other influences here are climate and geography .   Here, we have been stable for years yet others live next to erupting magma pits .  I think the cultural / earth energetic fields are related , but more by locality .   I would be rather nervous living near an active volcano .

 

I[I am remembering camping out at Rotorua, ( highly geologically active )   sleeping on the ground was crazy .... I could feel its 'thinness' and the surging energy down there  [ trucks drove past and the  noise and vibration felt hollow ]

 

Even the natives seemed    'volatile' and 'volcanic'  ! 

 

 

I think that terrain, flora and fauna are used to shape the local mythos and interpretive narrative which is used by local shamans and so on ... and of course at a subtle level 'entities' e.g. spirits of tree, rocks, lakes, mountains and so on - and of course the earth's field.

 

I get your point about N-S ... but E -W must mean something - perhaps even if it is a human construct.

 

 

2 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

 

I have always felt more attracted to the western traditions , though they are  more esoteric and hidden ( in the east its mostly exoteric ) and a little bemuse at all these Aussies running around trying to adapt to eastern systems  - even though my tradition is eclectic - there is no prohibition on 'getting into' eastern stuff, but you 'curriculum' and the way its set up in stages of progress is a western model . . But location is important  ... its the land we live on and the enrgy we live in . So  My main focus has been ' blood and land' ; my  'genetic traditions' and 'local' shamanism .

 

 

Blood and land eh?  Zieg heil!!!

 

2 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

We are 'top heavy'  one notices that with martial arts  - and men more so than women . But I suspect it might be conditional  - eg  this has happened so many times in training ;

 

Me;   " Push  me "   ( or , when they are in an advantages position, at the beginning of a lock , throw or take down ) ... " Now push !   ...

 

no   PUSH  !   ... push !   surge through ....  "    Nope  .   " Right , forget all that , come over to the car  ... its stuck on a flat spo with a flat battery .  Do you think you can psh it forward ? "   As soon as they start to , even before hands on  ... ' Stop !   Now look at what you are doing , you instinctivly spread your feet, bent your knees a little , lowered your centre  , etc   now do that when you 'push'  me .

 

People 'face off' puffing out their chests and lifting their shoulders up  ..... look out if the appear calmer and 'sink' a little .

 

 

 

Well, I think you  heard me before on this , my 'raid and run' theory of human aggression .  Most societies seemed more peaceful with each other  until the Indo Europeans started charging all over the place on their new horse critters  -  IE and horses and some others ( like Vikings and their ships ) - when one thinks one  can escape the consequences of their actions , those actions become irresponsible .

 

 

 

You think there was peace before the Indo-Europeans?  I think there were fewer people and a lot of space between.  But I can see what you are getting at.  But it sounds a little like putting the blame for human woe on the shoulders of one set of humans.  Which to me is too easy as an answer.