East is East and West is West

[Apech]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

 

Australia  is really a part of Europe  ... when we want to enter  Eurovision song contest .

 

But its really  a part of South East Asia ... when we want a good a trade deal . 

 

Our population is multi ethnic / cultural , yet  modern Australia  has no culture   (unless you want to count' convicts and first settlers' stories , songs and poems ... and stupid concepts like  '  Gallipoli '   (  " our proudest moment that defined our modern nation "  ..... when we went to Invade Turkey ;  for some obscure reason that had nothing to do with us , read the map wrong, turned up at the wrong place, got the shit shot out of us and  barely managed to escape with some survivors  )

 

 

I suppose West is East when you are upside down

 

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

 

 

 

 

I find this confusing , first , isnt any 'now' just a  fleeting 'freeze frame' of a continuum  and if good  or bad things are happening is not any 'now' just a part of that ?   Why does a frozen  moment in time  ... of itself  and 'always' natural and pure  ? 

 

Isnt any perception of the 'now' an illusion ,  as, if such a perception is really possible it must be for a moment that is as short as infinity is long  ?  or we are actually perceiving a series of 'nows' connected and in a 'frame speed' limited by our perceptions.

 

Is it the now, or are we looking at the frames of a film separated by small time gaps ?

 

[ This reminds me of when young Harry got his first digital watch, it fascinated him and wore it all the time ; I used to love asking him the time , " What's the time Harry ?  "

" Its exactly 12: 23 : 42  ..... ummm 12:23 :43  ... no   , wait  ...  12:23 :45   ....  "  ]

 

As far as you being anywhere in the world aand 'not mattering' what is happening to you   .....

 

well,  we would have to test that one   .... unless we just take your word on it   ... but testing you would be more fun

 

Its easy to  say when snug  and safe at home

 

 

This is a big subject which perhaps I shouldn't have opened up as it deserves its own thread.  I would say that what I mean by 'now' (which I admit has a New Age ring to it) is more like what Blake meant:

 

To see a World in a Grain of Sand

And a Heaven in a Wild Flower 

Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand 

And Eternity in an hour

 

In other words the whole reflected in the moment - not a frozen clock.  If you see what I mean.

 

Anyway my main point was that when I focus on what seems immediately real ... its not the human world of thoughts, emotions, struggle and fight - but more a kind of presence or energy (more words would be blah).

 

 

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

 

 

 

I think the human world is very real .  But human's often play with the unreal .  If I cant see a reflection in nature , of  something humans 'made up' , then  to me  it is human BS ( not real ) .

 

 

Yeah but for instance I have recently some how incurred the eye of Sauron ... or what is better known as the Portuguese IRS tax authorities ... which is not really a concern (honestly) except that I know it will involve a myriad of complex rules, lots of form filling, some angst, money and interacting with some not so helpful people.  All of this is somehow 'unreal' - and yet it is part of the human world and therefore real.  If I look at it in one way it's just a load of human invented nonsense - but its affect could suck my attention into a black hole of shite.  

 

 

[Limahong]

20 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

its affect could suck my attention into a black hole of shite

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

7 hours ago, Apech said:

 

I suppose West is East when you are upside down

 

 

This is a big subject which perhaps I shouldn't have opened up as it deserves its own thread.

 

Yes.

 

7 hours ago, Apech said:

 

  I would say that what I mean by 'now' (which I admit has a New Age ring to it) is more like what Blake meant:

 

To see a World in a Grain of Sand

And a Heaven in a Wild Flower 

Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand 

And Eternity in an hour

 

In other words the whole reflected in the moment - not a frozen clock.  If you see what I mean.

 

Anyway my main point was that when I focus on what seems immediately real ... its not the human world of thoughts, emotions, struggle and fight - but more a kind of presence or energy (more words would be blah).

 

 

 

Yeah but for instance I have recently some how incurred the eye of Sauron ... or what is better known as the Portuguese IRS tax authorities ... which is not really a concern (honestly) except that I know it will involve a myriad of complex rules, lots of form filling, some angst, money and interacting with some not so helpful people.  All of this is somehow 'unreal' - and yet it is part of the human world and therefore real.  If I look at it in one way it's just a load of human invented nonsense - but its affect could suck my attention into a black hole of shite.  

 

 

 

I say it is shit, as there is no other thing like a tax department in nature  ... nor bureaucracy 

 

... them tax fellahs come around these parts  ... they get an introduction to  Old Doris here  ...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Limahong]

On 5/14/2021 at 2:43 PM, Nungali said:

 

Old Doris

 

 

Hi Nun,

 

 

or

 

 

G'Day mate

 

 

- Anand

 

 

[Limahong]

On 5/14/2021 at 2:43 PM, Nungali said:

 

there is no other thing like a tax department in nature  ... nor bureaucracy 

... them tax fellahs come around these parts  ... they get an introduction to  Old Doris here  ...

 

 

 

 

 

[Geof Nanto]

On 18/04/2021 at 9:04 PM, Apech said:

@Yueya

 

You know a lot more about Jung than I do.  But he does seem to be a gateway for people in the West who are searching to find some kind of spiritual certainties.  I find the term 'unconscious' a bit unhelpful as it sounds a little like something without consciousness - while actually it probably means the opposite.  I suppose that the term arose because he was speaking of those things of which we are not usually conscious.  I think its very important to recognise that our conscious minds are maybe 1 - 10% of what is actually going on....

 

Where i do perhaps think there is a role in specifically Western thought and religion ... it is that of monotheism and specifically the Biblical sort (which is different to henotheism, monolatry and so on).  As far as I see it monotheism is a concealed dualism - which through the tradition of Western Judeo-Christian culture leads inevitably to the harsh objectivism of science.  Whereas dharmic and Daoist traditions don't do this.

 

This post of yours has stayed in the back of my mind for two main reasons, namely your use of the term ‘spiritual certainties’, and your comment on the concealed dualism of Christian monotheism.

 

I’ve heard said that almost everyone comes to religion looking for the certainty it brings, and only a tiny few come looking for deeper truths. Jung has given me certainty of a special kind; the knowledge that working with uncertainty is intrinsic to the path of finding wholeness. What he's given me is a conceptual framework that embraces uncertainty and gives tools to navigate my way through it. 

 

To gain an overview of Jung’s complex insights and the terminology he uses to describe them, such as ‘the unconscious’, ‘archetypes’, ‘individuation’ etc, a person needs to read his works. And, of course, no need to do this unless one feels drawn to him.  He develops his themes over the course of many decades and makes no attempt to simplify or systemise because, as he himself expressed it:

 

“The language I speak must be ambiguous, must have two meanings, in order to do justice to the dual aspect of our psychic nature. I strive quite consciously and deliberately for ambiguity of expression, because it is superior to unequivocalness and reflects the nature of life. My whole temperament inclines me to be very unequivocal indeed. That is not difficult, but it would be at the cost of truth. I purposely allow all the overtones and undertones to be heard, partly because they are there anyway, and partly because they give a fuller picture of reality. Unequivocalness makes sense only in establishing facts but not in interpreting them; for ‘meaning’ is not a tautology but always includes more in itself than the concrete object of which it is predicated. “

 

He conceived of our psyche (mind in the greater sense) as a system of energy flows and for energy to flow there needs to be polarity. Thus, like Daoism, he focused on gaining insight into the polar opposites that energise our psyche. And these polar opposites form the bedrock of our mostly unconscious psyche and must be felt and embraced with insight to find wholeness; the Self.

 

“The unconscious is not just evil by nature, it is also the source of the highest good: not only dark but also light, not only bestial, semihuman, and demonic but superhuman, spiritual, and, in the classical sense of the word, ‘divine’.”

 

Compare this to what he says about God:

 

All opposites are of God, therefore man must bend to this burden; and in so doing he finds that God in his 'oppositeness' has taken possession of him, incarnated himself in him. He becomes a vessel filled with divine conflict. We rightly associate the idea of suffering with a state in which the opposites violently collide with one another, and we hesitate to describe such a painful experience as being ‘redeemed'. Yet it cannot be denied that the great symbol of the Christian faith, the Cross, upon which hangs the suffering figure of the Redeemer, has been emphatically held up before the eyes of Christians for nearly two thousand years. This picture is completed by the two thieves, one of whom goes down to hell, the other into paradise. One could hardly imagine a better representation of the ‘oppositeness’ of the central Christian symbol.

 

Why this inevitable product of Christian psychology should signify redemption is difficult to see, except that the conscious recognition of the opposites, painful though it may be at the moment, does bring with it a definite feeling of deliverance. It is on the one hand a deliverance from the distressing state of dull and helpless unconsciousness, and on the other hand a growing awareness of God's oppositeness, in which man can participate if he does not shrink from being wounded by the dividing sword which is Christ. Only through the most extreme and most menacing conflict does the Christian experience deliverance into divinity, always provided that he does not break, but accepts the burden of being marked out by God. In this way alone can the imago Dei realize itself in him, and God become man.

 

Edited May 24, 2021 by Yueya

[Apech]

9 minutes ago, Yueya said:

 

This post of yours has stayed in the back of my mind for two main reasons, namely your use of the term ‘spiritual certainties’, and your comment on the concealed dualism of Christian monotheism.

 

I’ve heard said that almost everyone comes to religion looking for the certainty it brings, and only a tiny few come looking for deeper truths. Jung has given me certainty of a special kind; the knowledge that working with uncertainty is intrinsic to the path of finding wholeness. What he's given me is a conceptual framework that embraces uncertainty and gives tools to navigate my way through it. 

 

To gain an overview of Jung’s complex insights and the terminology he uses to describe them, such as ‘the unconscious’, ‘archetypes’, ‘individuation’ etc, a person needs to read his works. And, of course, no need to do this unless one feels drawn to him.  He develops his themes over the course of many decades and makes no attempt to simplify or systemise because, as he himself expressed it:

 

“The language I speak must be ambiguous, must have two meanings, in order to do justice to the dual aspect of our psychic nature. I strive quite consciously and deliberately for ambiguity of expression, because it is superior to unequivocalness and reflects the nature of life. My whole temperament inclines me to be very unequivocal indeed. That is not difficult, but it would be at the cost of truth. I purposely allow all the overtones and undertones to be heard, partly because they are there anyway, and partly because they give a fuller picture of reality. Unequivocalness makes sense only in establishing facts but not in interpreting them; for ‘meaning’ is not a tautology but always includes more in itself than the concrete object of which it is predicated. “

 

He conceived of our psyche (mind in the greater sense) as a system of energy flows and for energy to flow there needs to be polarity. Thus, like Daoism, he focused on gaining insight into the polar opposites that energise our psyche. And these polar opposites form the bedrock of our mostly unconscious psyche and must be felt and embraced with insight to find wholeness; the Self.

 

“The unconscious is not just evil by nature, it is also the source of the highest good: not only dark but also light, not only bestial, semihuman, and demonic but superhuman, spiritual, and, in the classical sense of the word, ‘divine’.”

 

Compare this to what he says about God:

 

All opposites are of God, therefore man must bend to this burden; and in so doing he finds that God in his 'oppositeness' has taken possession of him, incarnated himself in him. He becomes a vessel filled with divine conflict. We rightly associate the idea of suffering with a state in which the opposites violently collide with one another, and we hesitate to describe such a painful experience as being ‘redeemed'. Yet it cannot be denied that the great symbol of the Christian faith, the Cross, upon which hangs the suffering figure of the Redeemer, has been emphatically held up before the eyes of Christians for nearly two thousand years. This picture is completed by the two thieves, one of whom goes down to hell, the other into paradise. One could hardly imagine a better representation of the ‘oppositeness’ of the central Christian symbol.

 

Why this inevitable product of Christian psychology should signify redemption is difficult to see, except that the conscious recognition of the opposites, painful though it may be at the moment, does bring with it a definite feeling of deliverance. It is on the one hand a deliverance from the distressing state of dull and helpless unconsciousness, and on the other hand a growing awareness of God's oppositeness, in which man can participate if he does not shrink from being wounded by the dividing sword which is Christ. Only through the most extreme and most menacing conflict does the Christian experience deliverance into divinity, always provided that he does not break, but accepts the burden of being marked out by God. In this way alone can the imago Dei realize itself in him, and God become man.

 

 

Very interesting, thank you.

 

 

[Apech]

@Yueya,

 

Perhaps an alternative word for 'certainty' is truth.  A word that everyone seems to wish to avoid these days, probably because of the ascendancy of post-modern relativism.  Maybe we could say that people are seeking truth(s) and generally speaking this is defined by society to be fact and data.  Anyone who knows a statistician might question how close we get to truth through sorting data - on the other hand they tend to be unshakable on facts and logic.  Then of course there is narrative or mythological truth, how stories can reveal truths to us particularly about the human condition.  This is, I think, Jungian, Joseph Campbell and now Jordan Peterson territory - completely overlooked by science even though it has its own 'standard models' and so on - grand theory like evolutionary theory which are actually narratives.

 

Spiritual truth could be truth 'provided' or revealed by spirit to us, or alternatively the truth of the reality of spirit (as the nature of things).  I would guess that the way we get certainty from this would be application of the truth(s) to our lives.  There is much play made of the evolutionary advantage of believing in a higher power/purpose.  But I find this argument a little weak because in certain circumstances there might be some kind of short term advantage in believing in something untrue.  I have always taken the position that revelation is in its purest sense the coming to know directly of spirit/consciousness of itself (we being it - if you see what I mean).  While data and narrative might apply in some sense I cannot see that they are adequate guides for someone seeking to truly know themselves.  I have come to the conclusion that aside from meditation, the vehicle which navigates the journey is prayer (and I say this as someone brought up in a strictly atheist household) - or maybe you could say devotion, or maybe you could say a pure willingness - a kind of daring which opens up to the immediate truth.  Prayer in the religious sense, for me anyway, is directed to those who have gone before, the masters of the past.

 

 

[manitou]

20 hours ago, Yueya said:

In this way alone can the imago Dei realize itself in him, and God become man.

 

 

 

Just like the ending of Wizard of Oz.

[Geof Nanto]

12 hours ago, Apech said:

Then of course there is narrative or mythological truth, how stories can reveal truths to us particularly about the human condition.  This is, I think, Jungian, Joseph Campbell and now Jordan Peterson territory - completely overlooked by science even though it has its own 'standard models' and so on - grand theory like evolutionary theory which are actually narratives.

 

I totally agree with you about the importance of myth.  Jung writes extensively on it and one of his key projects was to bring back to life the stagnant Christian myth which has become moribund through the rigid dogma of the church.  My own personal myth is something slowly being revealed to me. 

 

12 hours ago, Apech said:

I have come to the conclusion that aside from meditation, the vehicle which navigates the journey is prayer (and I say this as someone brought up in a strictly atheist household) - or maybe you could say devotion, or maybe you could say a pure willingness - a kind of daring which opens up to the immediate truth.  Prayer in the religious sense, for me anyway, is directed to those who have gone before, the masters of the past.

 

I too was brought up in an atheistic household and have only come to appreciate the richness of religion because of its relevance to my own inner experience. But I’ll say no more now on this topic of vital importance to me other than, for me, the channel that allows heartfelt contact in the sense you’re referring to as prayer, is what Daoists call xuanpin. I plan on slowly adding more content to the topic I’ve started by that name in the Daoist section.  So far, when posting material there, I've felt like I'm being at my most authentic. 

 

 

Edited May 26, 2021 by Yueya

[Geof Nanto]

5 hours ago, manitou said:

 

 

Just like the ending of Wizard of Oz.

 

I can't comment on that because I haven't seen it. However, going back to your previous disparaging comment on Jung, I would have hoped that you of all people would hold Jung in high regard because it was Jung's letter to Bill W explaining how he considered alcoholism to be a spiritual disease that led Bill W to found the 12 step fellowship of AA. 

Edited May 26, 2021 by Yueya

[manitou]

15 hours ago, Yueya said:

 

I can't comment on that because I haven't seen it. However, going back to your previous disparaging comment on Jung, I would have hoped that you of all people would hold Jung in high regard because it was Jung's letter to Bill W explaining how he considered alcoholism to be a spiritual disease that led Bill W to found the 12 step fellowship of AA. 

 

 

Hi Yueya, I re-read my comment that you linked, and I don't see anything disparaging about it.  I was wondering if Jung was an enlightened one.  I don't see that as disparaging.  and yes, I am familiar with Jung's input to Mr. Wilson and the development of AA.  So sorry if I rubbed you the wrong way.

[Ano Eremita]

 

On 18/04/2021 at 1:04 PM, Apech said:

I find the term 'unconscious' a bit unhelpful as it sounds a little like something without consciousness - while actually it probably means the opposite.  I suppose that the term arose because he was speaking of those things of which we are not usually conscious. 

 

agree with one proviso, i think of it in this way . . .
"I suppose that the term arose because he was speaking of those things of which we are not usually" aware of. 
We are constantly in a state of consciousness but not always in a state of awareness; 

and further, that consciousness is both individual and (human) collective; even universal.

 

Dreamtime consciousness/awareness will lead us to another discussion, another time

[Apech]

22 minutes ago, Ano Eremita said:

 

 

agree with one proviso, i think of it in this way . . .
"I suppose that the term arose because he was speaking of those things of which we are not usually" aware of. 
We are constantly in a state of consciousness but not always in a state of awareness; 

and further, that consciousness is both individual and (human) collective; even universal.

 

Dreamtime consciousness/awareness will lead us to another discussion, another time

 

'human' collective?  why not all sentient beings collective, perhaps? and can you clarify what consciousness without awareness is?

 

 

[dwai]

On 5/26/2021 at 10:50 AM, manitou said:

 

 

Hi Yueya, I re-read my comment that you linked, and I don't see anything disparaging about it.  I was wondering if Jung was an enlightened one.  I don't see that as disparaging.  and yes, I am familiar with Jung's input to Mr. Wilson and the development of AA.  So sorry if I rubbed you the wrong way.

Interestingly enough, Jung was influenced by Indian wisdom traditions — https://www.idrlabs.com/articles/2014/11/how-indian-philosophy-influenced-jung/

 

[Ano Eremita]

2 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

'human' collective?  why not all sentient beings collective, perhaps? and can you clarify what consciousness without awareness is?

 

 

i'll try . . .
'normally' we breathe without knowing we're breathing 
i call that 'body' consciousness
and sometimes we breathe, aware of our in-breath and our out-breath
i call that awareness

[Ano Eremita]

Just now, Ano Eremita said:

'human' collective?  why not all sentient beings collective, perhaps?

 

yeah, for sure
but i wonder what's non-sentient 

[Apech]

27 minutes ago, Ano Eremita said:

 

yeah, for sure
but i wonder what's non-sentient 

 

possibly nothing

[manitou]

2 hours ago, Apech said:

 

possibly nothing

 

 

I think if it can hold form, there is consciousness.

[manitou]

3 hours ago, dwai said:

Interestingly enough, Jung was influenced by Indian wisdom traditions — https://www.idrlabs.com/articles/2014/11/how-indian-philosophy-influenced-jung/

 

 

 

Nice article, thanks!  

 

Lacking any conception of Brahman as a spiritual mediator of psychic life, Nietzsche was eventually led to declare himself his own god.[8] 

 

I'm guessing that if Nietzsche had tamed his own ego, this would have worked out just fine for him.