spiritual traditions on fools

[dwai]

4 minutes ago, Indiken said:

 

i am thinking,

 

do a human being is "one-whole" or is he a system of some sort?

 

for example, 

 

people say "computer", but i reality, computer is a system of parts and those parts are system of smaller parts and so on... to infinity.

 

is there a human or person at all?

 

edit 1: i mean, who is now writing? is it me? am i the consciousness or the personality?

 

edit 2: does observer observes himself?

 

what a silly question...

it’s a very simple thing to unpack, in a stepwise manner. 
 

Do this thought experiment — 

 

1. Look at any object you find - say a pen. You see the pen, so you must be separate/apart from the pen. 
2. Now look at your palm. Are you looking at your palm or is your palm is looking at you? Consider that the palm is a representation of your body (what’s true for the palm is also true for all other parts of your body). If you say that you are looking at your palm...that means you are not your palm, the palm is separate from you. You are not your body. 
3. Now you see your palm with your eyes. Close your eyes...you can’t see the palm anymore. But you know when your eyes are open and when they are closed. Where do you know this? In your mind. So the activity of your sense organs is known by your mind. 
    
4. Now visualize the palm in your mind. You are now aware of your mind — which is nothing but a series of thought objects, as is the image of the palm. So you must be different from your mind. You are not your mind. You know when there is an object in your mind (thought) and when it is not there in your mind (just before you visualized the palm in your mind, it wasn’t there). 
    
5. In a similar manner, consider the equation 2 + 2, you know that the answer is 4. That is your intellect. You know when the intellect is operating, because it gave you the solution to the problem. If you know/are aware of the intellect, you are not your intellect — but something apart from It
6. Now eat a piece of fruit. It gives you pleasure — you enjoy the sweetness. That is an emotion — pleasure. You know it. You also know it’s absence. So you are something separate from it. You are not your emotions. 
    
7. Do the same for your ego. You are aware of your ego. Since you are aware of your ego, you can’t be your ego. 
    
8. Now investigate on where this “you” comes from. 

[Indiken]

3 minutes ago, dwai said:

it’s a very simple thing to unpack, in a stepwise manner. 
 

Do this thought experiment — 

 

1. Look at any object you find - say a pen. You see the pen, so you must be separate/apart from the pen. i am not a pen.
2. Now look at your palm. Are you looking at your palm or is your palm is looking at you? Consider that the palm is a representation of your body (what’s true for the palm is also true for all other parts of your body). If you say that you are looking at your palm...that means you are not your palm, the palm is separate from you. You are not your body. i am not my body. Body is my possesion. I am in the body.
3. Now you see your palm with your eyes. Close your eyes...you can’t see the palm anymore. But you know when your eyes are open and when they are closed. Where do you know this? In your mind. So the activity of your sense organs is known by your mind. Next stage is mind.
4. Now visualize the palm in your mind. You are now aware of your mind — which is nothing but a series of thought objects, as is the image of the palm. So you must be different from your mind. You are not your mind. You know when there is an object in your mind (thought) and when it is not there in your mind (just before you visualized the palm in your mind, it wasn’t there). i am not mind.
5. In a similar manner, consider the equation 2 + 2, you know that the answer is 4. That is your intellect. You know when the intellect is operating, because it gave you the solution to the problem. If you know/are aware of the intellect, you are not your intellect — but something apart from It. i am not intellect.
6. Now eat a piece of fruit. It gives you pleasure — you enjoy the sweetness. That is an emotion — pleasure. You know it. You also know it’s absence. So you are something separate from it. You are not your emotions. i am not emotions.
7. Do the same for your ego. You are aware of your ego. Since you are aware of your ego, you can’t be your ego. What is ego? 
8. Now investigate on where this “you” comes from. I will.

 

thank you for a detailed answer,

 

i miss this type of messages very much here.

 

can you fill the gap for me - what is ego?

 

you know, it is sad, because i do not have any emotions

[Indiken]

also, what is the function of the mind?

 

i mean, do mind operates by itself?

 

i have read that sometimes a body lives without a soul...

Edited April 26, 2021 by Indiken

[dwai]

9 minutes ago, Indiken said:

 

thank you for a detailed answer,

 

i miss this type of messages very much here.

 

can you fill the gap for me - what is ego?

 

you know, it is sad, because i do not have any emotions

You have an idea about what it is, right? You asked for help in “reducing it” after all. What do YOU think the ego is?  

[Indiken]

Just now, dwai said:

You have an idea about what it is, right? You asked for help in “reducing it” after all. What do YOU think the ego is?  

 

it such a pleasure in the heart to speak with reason, finally,

 

please,

 

do not think that i want to "troll" or something of similar nonsense,

 

i have no intention of this, but to some people this might look like "trolling",

 

it is my sincere opinion,

 

i do not like the term "ego" and do not use it in my life and in contemplating,

 

probably, because i am instructed in different material than the mainstream traditions,

 

this time i did use it that people would understand me better,

 

so,

 

that "ego" is a system:

 

it has a feeling in the middle of the chest and in the heart,

 

it has a thought of "i am superior",

 

it gives me a smile,

 

it comes from experience:

 

how the person looks,

 

what is the voice of the person,

 

what terms the person uses,

 

what desires does a person have,

 

it is a mix,

 

i do compare myself and other person,

 

the good question would be why i do compare?

[Indiken]

4 minutes ago, Indiken said:

 

it such a pleasure in the heart to speak with reason, finally,

 

please,

 

do not think that i want to "troll" or something of similar nonsense,

 

i have no intention of this, but to some people this might look like "trolling",

 

it is my sincere opinion,

 

i do not like the term "ego" and do not use it in my life and in contemplating,

 

probably, because i am instructed in different material than the mainstream traditions,

 

this time i did use it that people would understand me better,

 

so,

 

that "ego" is a system:

 

it has a feeling in the middle of the chest and in the heart,

 

it has a thought of "i am superior",

 

it gives me a smile,

 

it comes from experience:

 

how the person looks,

 

what is the voice of the person,

 

what terms the person uses,

 

what desires does a person have,

 

it is a mix,

 

i do compare myself and other person,

 

the good question would be why i do compare?

 

oh by the way, i will cite the material:

 

Questioner: Can you tell me how you balance the ego?

Ra: I am Ra. We cannot work with this concept as it is misapplied and understanding cannot come from it.

 

Questioner: Thank you. I have a question here from Jim that I will read verbatim: “Much of the mystic tradition of seeking on Earth holds that belief that the individual self must be erased or obliterated and the material world ignored for an entity to reach ‘nirvana,’ as it’s called, or enlightenment. What is the proper role of the individual self and its worldly activities in aiding an entity to grow more into the Law of One?”

Ra: I am Ra. The proper role of the entity is in this density to experience all things desired, to then analyze, understand, and accept these experiences, distilling from them the love/light within them. Nothing shall be overcome. That which is not needed falls away.

The orientation develops due to analysis of desire. These desires become more and more distorted towards conscious application of love/light as the entity furnishes itself with distilled experience. We have found it to be inappropriate in the extreme to encourage the overcoming of any desires, except to suggest the imagination rather than the carrying out in the physical plane, as you call it, of those desires not consonant with the Law of One; this preserving the primal distortion of free will.

The reason it is unwise to overcome is that overcoming is an unbalanced action creating difficulties in balancing in the time/space continuum. Overcoming thus creates the further environment for holding onto that which apparently has been overcome.

All things are acceptable in the proper time for each entity, and in experiencing, in understanding, in accepting, in then sharing with other-selves, the appropriate description shall be moving away from distortions of one kind to distortions of another which may be more consonant with the Law of One.

It is, shall we say, a shortcut to simply ignore or overcome any desire. It must instead be understood and accepted. This takes patience and experience which can be analyzed with care, with compassion for self and for other-self.

 

 

[Limahong]

2 minutes ago, Indiken said:

what is the voice of the person

 

 

 

 

[dwai]

1 minute ago, Indiken said:

 

it such a pleasure in the heart to speak with reason, finally,

 

please,

 

do not think that i want to "troll" or something of similar nonsense,

 

i have no intention of this, but to some people this might look like "trolling",

 

it is my sincere opinion,

 

i do not like the term "ego" and do not use it in my life and in contemplating,

 

probably, because i am instructed in different material than the mainstream traditions,

 

this time i did use it that people would understand me better,

 

so,

 

that "ego" is a system:

 

 

it has a feeling in the middle of the chest and in the heart,

 

it has a thought of "i am superior",

 

it gives me a smile,

 

it comes from experience:

 

how the person looks,

 

what is the voice of the person,

 

what terms the person uses,

 

what desires does a person have,

 

it is a mix,

 

i do compare myself and other person,

 

the good question would be why i do compare?

So would you agree that “ego” is a process? 
 

Our “mind” has four functions. One is the field of thought objects. Another is the storehouse of memories and impressions. Another is the intellect. And finally is the process by which the Self is identified with personality, skills, qualities, ideas. 
 

At the core of our experience is the sense “I am”. This is something you can directly recognize by the exercise - “without thinking, in a fraction of a second, can you tell me who you are?”

“Ego” identifies this “I am” as “I am this” and “I am that”. Which leads to identification with body, mind, thoughts, skills, profession etc etc. 

 

 

[Limahong]

36 minutes ago, Indiken said:

 

can you fill the gap for me - what is ego?

 

 

 

 

[Indiken]

1 minute ago, dwai said:

So would you agree that “ego” is a process? 
 

Our “mind” has four functions. One is the field of thought objects. Another is the storehouse of memories and impressions. Another is the intellect. And finally is the process by which the Self is identified with personality, skills, qualities, ideas.
 

At the core of our experience is the sense “I am”. This is something you can directly recognize by the exercise - “without thinking, in a fraction of a second, can you tell me who you are?”

“Ego” identifies this “I am” as “I am this” and “I am that”. Which leads to identification with body, mind, thoughts, skills, profession etc etc. 

 

 

 

i am sorry, for me everything is a process...

 

for now, i see mind as instrument, 

 

there is everyday life situations which require direction,

 

and,

 

to use mind to change myself

[dwai]

Just now, Indiken said:

 

i am sorry, for me everything is a process...

 

for now, i see mind as instrument, 

 

there is everyday life situations which require direction,

 

and,

 

to use mind to change myself

Who is this “‘myself”? 

[manitou]

 

 

If you can see the Whole of humanity, the Oneness - then there is no possibility of superiority or inferiority.  It's like we're separate waves on the ocean, thinking we're different from each other - but we're really all the ocean.  It's the same with the 'soul' that dwells inside us.  It's all the same 'soul'.  That warm column of presence you have inside you is the very same one I have.  The only thing that gives us the feeling of separation is that this soul is contained in different skin bags.  We are separated by our individual conditionings only.

 

To penetrate ego (which is keeping you thinking you're separate or different), start where you are today.  Every time you get into a tiff with someone, stop and examine what precious thing inside you that you're protecting.  My list goes something like this:  I was pressured to be the First to answer any question in class.  I had to know it all, dad pounded that into me.  We would play chess when I was maybe 8 and he would yell at me if I lost.  I was brought up to feel like a piece of manure.  Not intentionally, I'm sure, but that was the message I got.

 

What resulted was that I became this hardened overachiever, a police detective, flippant at every turn, a superiority complex that could stop a train.  It took alcoholism to bring me to my knees and shatter the wall.  And then I had to rebuild it, but in an honest way, leaving ego out as much as possible.

 

Certainly you don't have to go to these lengths.  If a person is willing to begin the process on the own, the self-inquiry, there will be no need for crisis.  Your ego must be penetrated.  See why it's there.  Deal with that.

 

Let the other guy win an argument.  And then just sit with that and see how you feel.  Watch it as though you're separate from yourself.  This is also a good way to start penetrating the ego.  Memories can be found here, the memories that you reacted to when you were a kid.  And then they can be  modified.  The reason this works is because linear time is an illusion, and it's all really happening Now.  So we can deal with it Now.

 

The last thing in the world I want is to be unkind to you.  But please consider the possibility that you are not only crying out for help of some sort, but that you may be seeking attention.  I get a sense that runs pretty deep in you.  Do try and determine at what point in early life that you had to start acting out to get attention.  Maybe there were older siblings?  Sometimes if there are, the older ones get the attention, and the younger one is sort of forgotten?  It's important that you find these things, or you will continue in this pattern of cannonballing yourself into every new pool you come across.

 

I really hope you can get there.  It's a little painful to go back and see where a tendency started, but it is truly worth the effort.  Sometimes awareness alone of the causative factor in a dynamic is all it takes to start improving.  Your behavior will modify a little at a time; you will be aware every time you see a situation coming, and you'll have the choice to act in your best interest, or fall prey to the old habits that keep you hitting a brick wall.  You're so close, only ego thickness is stopping you.

 

Oh, one more thing.  This is just a general suggestion that's good for everybody.  Jesus said it, 'Judge not, lest ye be judged'.  What this means, is that if you are judging others in your mind, you will expect that they are judging you in theirs.  When someone stops judging other people (their appearance, their religion, speech, etc) the feeling of 'being judged' will leave you.  You won't have to find a perch that continually feeds your ego.

 

You are very intelligent to have realized that ego is the one thing preventing you from clarity.

 

 

[Indiken]

Just now, dwai said:

Who is this “‘myself”? 

 

you got me(me?) 

 

i direct my body to say this:

 

i use mind to change body feelings

[Limahong]

2 minutes ago, Indiken said:

 

i am sorry, for me everything is a process...

 

 

Especially ECO...

 

 

 

[Limahong]

2 minutes ago, Indiken said:

 

i use mind to change body feelings

 

 

Where are the five senses?

 

 

 

[Indiken]

5 minutes ago, manitou said:

 

 

If you can see the Whole of humanity, the Oneness - then there is no possibility of superiority or inferiority.  It's like we're separate waves on the ocean, thinking we're different from each other - but we're really all the ocean.  It's the same with the 'soul' that dwells inside us.  It's all the same 'soul'.  That warm column of presence you have inside you is the very same one I have.  The only thing that gives us the feeling of separation is that this soul is contained in different skin bags.  We are separated by our individual conditionings only.

 

To penetrate ego (which is keeping you thinking you're separate or different), start where you are today.  Every time you get into a tiff with someone, stop and examine what precious thing inside you that you're protecting.  My list goes something like this:  I was pressured to be the First to answer any question in class.  I had to know it all, dad pounded that into me.  We would play chess when I was maybe 8 and he would yell at me if I lost.  I was brought up to feel like a piece of manure.  Not intentionally, I'm sure, but that was the message I got.

 

What resulted was that I became this hardened overachiever, a police detective, flippant at every turn, a superiority complex that could stop a train.  It took alcoholism to bring me to my knees and shatter the wall.  And then I had to rebuild it, but in an honest way, leaving ego out as much as possible.

 

Certainly you don't have to go to these lengths.  If a person is willing to begin the process on the own, the self-inquiry, there will be no need for crisis.  Your ego must be penetrated.  See why it's there.  Deal with that.

 

Let the other guy win an argument.  And then just sit with that and see how you feel.  Watch it as though you're separate from yourself.  This is also a good way to start penetrating the ego.  Memories can be found here, the memories that you reacted to when you were a kid.  And then they can be  modified.  The reason this works is because linear time is an illusion, and it's all really happening Now.  So we can deal with it Now.

 

The last thing in the world I want is to be unkind to you.  But please consider the possibility that you are not only crying out for help of some sort, but that you may be seeking attention.  I get a sense that runs pretty deep in you.  Do try and determine at what point in early life that you had to start acting out to get attention.  Maybe there were older siblings?  Sometimes if there are, the older ones get the attention, and the younger one is sort of forgotten?  It's important that you find these things, or you will continue in this pattern of cannonballing yourself into every new pool you come across.

 

I really hope you can get there.  It's a little painful to go back and see where a tendency started, but it is truly worth the effort.  Sometimes awareness alone of the causative factor in a dynamic is all it takes to start improving.  Your behavior will modify a little at a time; you will be aware every time you see a situation coming, and you'll have the choice to act in your best interest, or fall prey to the old habits that keep you hitting a brick wall.  You're so close, only ego thickness is stopping you.

 

Oh, one more thing.  This is just a general suggestion that's good for everybody.  Jesus said it, 'Judge not, lest ye be judged'.  What this means, is that if you are judging others in your mind, you will expect that they are judging you in theirs.  When someone stops judging other people (their appearance, their religion, speech, etc) the feeling of 'being judged' will leave you.  You won't have to find a perch that continually feeds your ego.

 

You are very intelligent to have realized that ego is the one thing preventing you from clarity.

 

 

 

thank you, manitou

 

i do realize that i simply want to talk to people, to show myself,

 

it is pity, because i felt this way from the childhood,

 

i also did feel huge fear from childhood, which do separate me from others,

 

this fear was and is "irrational", what rationality can be there when one is 6 years old?

 

this fear manifests as shyness,

 

but now, to my surprise, some people say that i am "brave", because i do try to clear myself...

 

anyway,

 

i think it is a preincarnate choice, so to say,

 

to feel this superiority and fear at the same time...

[Limahong]

22 minutes ago, manitou said:

 

If you can see the Whole of humanity, the Oneness - then there is no possibility of superiority or inferiority.

 

 

Hi Barbara,

 

ONENESS...

 

 

17 and still counting...

 

 

Good night.

 

- Anand

 

 

[Limahong]

11 minutes ago, Indiken said:

 

but now, to my surprise, some people say that i am "brave", because i do try to clear myself...

 

 

Good job...

 

 

 

[dwai]

1 hour ago, Indiken said:

 

you got me(me?) 

 

i direct my body to say this:

 

i use mind to change body feelings

Yes. But who says “I”? 

[Apech]

8 hours ago, Indiken said:

thank you Apech,

 

can you define what ego is?

 

That is an important question because the term is used rather loosely.

 

In Western psychology it is an aspect of the self which negotiates between the id and the super-ego but most people use it to mean a 'bad' self ... a selfish self if you like.

 

Obviously this is all nonsense.  Western buddhists use it to refer to the 'self' that Buddha denied ... the atman ... which according to Buddhism doesn't actually exist but is an affect of the manas which imputes 'self' on to mental activity.

 

 

[dwai]

19 hours ago, Indiken said:

to feel this superiority and fear at the same time...

The sense of superiority IS rooted in fear. We mistake them to be two separate things. Fear is the cause, superiority is one of its possible effects.
 

One might ask “why so?”

 

Fear is a result of the self-preservation instinct. When we feel afraid, it is in order to protect something. At its core is the fear of death. But it can be fear of many smaller deaths too. The death of an identity we’ve held up as our “self” — let’s say you’re a really good artist. You identify yourself with your art. That is a function of your ego — “I am a great artist”. Then this ego looks around and sees another artist, and feels threatened, because it makes you feel that in order for you to remain good, you have to be “better” than the other one. This is another function of the ego — distinguish between “me” and “the other”. So out of fear of acknowledging that the other person might actually be a better artist, or just that your art is not better than their art, the ego ascribes a qualitative value. “Oh his art is expressionist, mine is fine art. Mine is better, his is just a bunch of random stuff without order or relevance or x, y, z”. So there we go — ego establishes a sense of superiority, so your identity as “great artist” can be maintained.

 

This is the way ego works — it will do its level best to uphold whatever identity you ascribe to yourself.
 

One might think they  have acquired “wisdom” or “spirituality”. Boom! The ego kicks in and sets up a sense of superiority — “I know the real truth...others are childish/stupid/ignorant/less knowledgeable...” and so on the list goes.

 

Thing is, we need to develop genuine honesty with ourselves to be able to overcome the ego. It’s better to say, “If I don’t know, let me acknowledge that I might not know. This way I can explore an entire world of stuff I can learn”. It happens at different levels and different scales. Part of our “spiritual process” is to peel away these layers of identification, until the core is laid bare - it feels vulnerable to the ego, but it is clarity.  That’s why the sage considers himself a fool — he knows he knows nothing. And anything that is claimed as “my knowledge” is just a layer of artificiality that one attaches to/identifies with.

 

Just some thoughts...thanks for the OP to allow us to explore this. 

Edited April 27, 2021 by dwai

[liminal_luke]

I think inferiority and superiority are two aspects of the same thing.  Scratch the feeling of inferiority (as in some forms of depression) and you´ll find superiority.  Scratch superiority and you´ll find a hidden (not very well) sense of inferiority.  Different people tend towards outward shows of one or the other but they are the same.  

 

Scratching is useful.  Perhaps eventually it leads towards the sense of egolessness that some here have described.  I wouldn´t know.  (My own tendency is to be self-deprecating like this because I tend towards inferiority. Waves at Indiken from the other side of the bleachers.)  Before egolessness manifests, I think there´s a sense of wholeness when we can hold our supposed inferiority and superiority together in the same breath.

Edited April 27, 2021 by liminal_luke

[Limahong]

5 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

Before egolessness manifests, I think there´s a sense of wholeness

when we can hold our supposed inferiority and superiority together in the same breath.

 

Hi Jesse,

 

Nice choice of words from one whom I have come to appreciate

as an experiential person in his own right.

 

Your sharing rings with honest encounters in Life

~ felt and internalised by you.

 

To your 'egolessness' ~ may I add these concepts...

Buddhist 'emptiness' and Taoist 'void'?

 

Thanks again for your honesty re an incident in December 2019

when you took ownership of causality ~ none of your making.

 

In this post with you ~ I am sensing these...

 

 

 

 

- Anand

 

 

 

Edited April 27, 2021 by Limahong
Enhancement

[Indiken]

it is strange, i was not moved by most of this thread answers,

 

i do remember dwai's reason about "i", though,

 

i did the mind exercise i have described earlier,

 

that is to use mind to experience life situations and discover how i do feel about them,

 

i did discover, that i do not want to change myself for the most part,

 

perhaps i am a fool afterall,  

 

some say, that those who know, do not talk and vice versa,

 

i do learn this from some teachers here, their reserved attitude,

 

ironically, i am considered very silent, but i do want to talk a lot  

 

anyway,

be well, all of you

Edited April 28, 2021 by Indiken

[Zorro Dantes]

Indiken man there is nothing new under the sun. I did this same thread years ago only worded it differently... How stupid you are is a reflection of how smart you can become, and that the great modern tragedy  to overcome is being as smart as we are stupid