Taoist Texts Posted January 1, 2023 7 minutes ago, muscidae said: creation myth in The Adjustment of Controversies. right. i have to say it is a very difficult chapter 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
muscidae Posted January 2, 2023 (edited) There is a teacher called uncle JT, who teaches Zuangzi and Chinese medical. Some of his material about Zhuangzi were posted online. Here is one of them (http://jtarticle.blogspot.com/2007/11/1_23.html). I translate it to English using google translate on Google Chrome and compare it to original document. There is some bothered mistranslated names and ancient Chinese article, but the story is still worth to read. Edited January 4, 2023 by muscidae 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Christopher Tricker Posted January 3, 2023 (edited) On 12/31/2022 at 7:06 PM, Taoist Texts said: I understand. thank you very much Christopher. In your paradigm is that field individual for every living man or a being, or it is unified for all beings? Apparently there is some history to this concept http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/Field_theories_of_consciousness/Field_theories_of_global_consciousness Have you done the enjoyment of fishes? Now that one is a stumper! https://ctext.org/zhuangzi/floods-of-autumn/ens#n2828  To my mind, the idea that there might be a unified field of consciousness is a theory. My experience of the here-and-now field of consciousness is a direct experience.  To answer your question directly: The theory that there is a unified field of consciousness doesn't make much sense to me. But I acknowledge: It makes sense to you. Which brings us to the enjoyment of fishes (Chapter 17):  Master Chuang and Master Hui are wandering about on a bridge above a ditch. Master Chuang says: Quick fish coming out to wander, following each otherâs leadâ These fish are happy.  Master Hui says: Youâre not a fishâ How do you know that the fish are happy?  Master Chuang says: Youâre not meâ How do you know that I donât know that the fish are happy?  Master Hui says: Iâm not youâ so indeed I donât know about you. And youâre not a fishâ which completes the case that you donât know that the fish are happy.  Master Chuang says: Allow me to stay with the original question. You asked, How do you know that the fish are happy? Knowing that I knew it, you asked me how. I know it above the ditch.  Quick fish coming out to wander, following each otherâs lead. We picture Master Chuang and Master Hui loafing about (wandering about) on a small bridge above a water-filled ditch, perhaps running along a rice paddy. Looking down into the ditch they see two small fish emerging from the grass and darting about in the shallow water. ~  The playful rhetoric of this conversation is somewhat, though not entirely, lost in translation.  How does Master Chuang know that the fish are happy?  From above the ditch.  Ah, we realise. When Master Chuang says âhow?â, he means âfrom where?â  We think: Wordplay! Master Chuang is merely playing with the ambiguity of the Chinese word an ćź (how; whence). He tricked usâand Master Huiâinto thinking that by an ćź he meant âhow?â (how do you know that I donât know that the fish are happy?), when in fact he meant âfrom where?â (from where do you know that I donât know that the fish are happy?)  But this is not just wordplay. Master Chuang is making a serious point, a point that works even in English. The answer to how we know something is always to identify from where we know it.  Mr Canadian holidaying in the tropicsâhow does he know itâs hot? From his standpoint (his experience) of being a person who is sweltering. Ms Indonesianâhow does she know itâs not hot? From her standpoint of being a person for whom this is just a balmy cool-seasonâs day.  How does Master Chuang know that the fish are happy? From where he stands on the bridge above the ditch. How does Master Hui know that Master Chuang does not know that the fish are happy? From where he stands on the bridge across from Master Chuang. This conversation is a playful enactment of the profound insight that Chuang Tzu explores in depth in Chapter 2.4: When from one perspective a thing is labelled đ„, from another itâs labelled not-đ„.  Youâre not a fish, so how do you know that the fish are happy? Master Chuang gives two different answers to this question.  Master Chuangâs first answer  When Master Hui says, Youâre not a fish, so how do you know that the fish are happy?, Master Chuang interprets him to be saying, Because youâre not a fish, you donât know that the fish are happy. (This is indeed what Master Hui means, as his later response confirms.) Master Chuang, acknowledging that Master Hui does know that Master Chuang doesnât know that the fish are happy, says, Youâre not me, so how do you know that I donât know that the fish are happy? He means this as a genuine answer to Master Huiâs question. Heâs pointing out to Master Hui that in the same way that Master Hui knows that Master Chuang doesnât know that the fish are happy, Master Chuang knows that the fish are happy. How does Master Hui know that Master Chuang doesnât know that the fish are happy? From Master Huiâs standpoint. Likewise, how does Master Chuang know that the fish are happy? From Master Chuangâs standpoint. Master Chuangâs second answer  However, when Master Chuang says, Youâre not me, so how do you know that I donât know that the fish are happy?, Master Hui interprets him to be saying, Because youâre not me, you donât know that I donât know that the fish are happy! This is the exact opposite of what Master Chuang means. We can see, though, why Master Hui interprets him in this way. When Master Hui says, Youâre not a fish, so how do you know that the fish are happy?, he means, Because youâre not a fish, you donât know that the fish are happy. Caught up in his own thought, he fails to see Master Chuangâs thought. He attributes to Master Chuang a thought that in fact resides in himself. Rather than unplayfully repeat himself, Master Chuang follows Master Huiâs lead and tries a different approach. His second answer is to reinterpret Master Huiâs initial question to be, How do you know that the fish are happy? (Of course, this isnât what Master Hui means. Master Chuang intentionally misinterprets Master Huiâs words to help Master Hui see how heâMaster Huiâhas misinterpreted Master Chuangâs words.) This gives the same answer as the first approach: he knows it from where he stands.  ~  Letâs return to Master Chuangâs original statement: Quick fish coming out to wander, following each otherâs leadâthese fish are happy.  Master Chuang isnât just talking about the fish down in the ditch. Heâs talking about himself and Master Hui.  The two quick fish wandering about in the ditch are like the quick-witted Master Chuang and Master Hui wandering about on the bridge. Like two fish darting about at ease, each taking its lead from the other, Master Chuang and Master Hui are engaged in a leisurely, verbal dance.  Master Chuang is saying to Master Hui: Hereâs you and me wandering about and sparring leisurely together. What happiness!  Indeed. What happiness. Edited January 3, 2023 by Christopher Tricker 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taoist Texts Posted January 3, 2023 2 hours ago, Christopher Tricker said: Indeed. What happiness. thank you. your treatment is quite elaborate. 2 hours ago, Christopher Tricker said: Master Chuang says: ... fish are happy. 1. this either means A.) that the fish are experiencing an emotion of happiness or B.) they thrive. Which is it A or B? 2. how can we know if either A or B is true? We are not connected to the fish's psyche for A  (assuming fish even has a psyche). And we cannot know their darting means they thrive for B: perhaps they are in a panic evading a predator which is out of our sight; or desperately compete for meager food in the water?  How would you answer 1 and 2? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sketch Posted January 3, 2023 (edited) We can certainly have paid more attention to fish than that. Their behavior is not as mysterious as all that, and putting ourselves in the fish's place is well within the capacity of the human mind. Exuberant, well oxygenated trout running out of river, leaping into the air chasing a recent hatch of tiny flies are hard to mistake...and easy to catch. I know that from the falls, I know that from the banks, I've seen it from the canals of Venice, (watching old men catch branzino there), and it would be observable from a stroll along the dam.  If it were impossible to experience the joy of fishes, fly fishing wouldn't work at all. Edited January 3, 2023 by Sketch 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taoist Texts Posted January 3, 2023 3 hours ago, Sketch said: If it were impossible to experience the joy of fishes, fly fishing wouldn't work at all. Thats a popular point of view that animals even cold-blooded ones like fish can have human emotions. It does not make sense to me because obviously humans are not fish but hey to everyone his own. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sketch Posted January 3, 2023 It's less that fish have human emotions than that humans have fish emotions.   1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sketch Posted January 3, 2023 (edited) An entire riverbank, all the plants, creatures, the wind, the light, can share an emotional state. Edited January 3, 2023 by Sketch 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Christopher Tricker Posted January 3, 2023 15 hours ago, Taoist Texts said: thank you. your treatment is quite elaborate. 1. this either means A.) that the fish are experiencing an emotion of happiness or B.) they thrive. Which is it A or B? 2. how can we know if either A or B is true? We are not connected to the fish's psyche for A  (assuming fish even has a psyche). And we cannot know their darting means they thrive for B: perhaps they are in a panic evading a predator which is out of our sight; or desperately compete for meager food in the water?  How would you answer 1 and 2?  You are playing the role of Master Hui in the story. Your questions are versions of "You are not a fish, so how do you know that the fish are happy?"  I will play the role of Master Chuang. My answer to your questions is: "I know it from this little desk here in Northern New South Wales, Australia."  Master Chuang is not ignoring or dismissing Master Hui's question, and I am not ignoring or dismissing yours. We could get into a debate about whether or not the fish are happy. That could be interesting; it could clarify our knowledge of the world. There could be genuine value in that sort of inquiry. But however that debate/inquiry goes, at the end of it we will still be left with the opinion of you, me, or someone else. Master Chuang isn't talking about fishes. He's highlighting how anything that you or I say, we say from this and that place. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taoist Texts Posted January 4, 2023 10 hours ago, Christopher Tricker said: Master Chuang is not ignoring or dismissing Master Hui's question good for him;) but it kinda feels like he does 10 hours ago, Christopher Tricker said: Master Chuang isn't talking about fishes. He's highlighting how anything that you or I say, we say from this and that place. As fantastic his answer is, that was not the question. He was asked 'how' not 'from where'? Besides being a non sequitur, 'from' is also trivial. We all know about something from being in the same place with that thing. It is a necessary but an insufficient condition. A sufficient condition is for our senses to connect with the thing. And to connect we have to be in the same ontological category with it, which is doubtful in this case. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taoist Texts Posted January 4, 2023 14 hours ago, Sketch said: fish have human emotions than that humans have fish emotions. certain humans certainly do Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sketch Posted January 4, 2023 (edited) The ones with an amygdala, for example. Edited January 4, 2023 by Sketch 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
