An inside view of the situation in India

[Taomeow]

A couple of days ago, from a Ukrainian doctor working with covid patients in Mumbai, India, Oleksandr Kuharchuk:

   

"Shake off the veil of absolute numbers from your eyes! Yesterday in India, the maximum rate of daily detection of infected people during the entire pandemic was recorded -- 362,902 people, which is 0.028% of the total population of the country.

As for funeral pyres, they've been burning in India for thousands of years and will burn for thousands more -- that's the Hindu custom.  It's just that you weren't shown them before -- because, by the same custom, it is forbidden to make photos or videos of the funeral pyres!"

 

As for covid-19 death rate (persons per million), India is currently on the 39th place in the world (which is far lower than the US and most of Europe).  What it really suffers from is the usual -- devastating poverty, malnutrition, hunger, famine, abysmal scarcity of medical resources.  Things that are "the usual" for a post-colonial country, only made worse by a new and improved wave of corporate looting.

 

The latest graph looks like this:

 

 

 

Note the timing.  

Edited May 5, 2021 by Taomeow

[Toni]

thanks for sharing this. This only means we are being manipulated very heavily by the media. Could you share the link in which the doctor says this?

Edited May 6, 2021 by Toni

[old3bob]

Lets not forget Modi was taken in and kissing trump's diseased ass and is on record for spreading trump type lies about covid!  To somehow downplay or  play with numbers  regardless of what people on the ground (seen in 1st hand videos - with no talking heads needed) in India are saying about the impact of covid illness and  deaths is more trumpian type insensitive sickness.

 

I do agree with the following about India and for so many other parts of the world:  "What it really suffers from is the usual -- devastating poverty, malnutrition, hunger, famine, abysmal scarcity of medical resources.  Things that are "the usual" for a post-colonial country, only made worse by a new and improved wave of corporate looting"

Edited May 6, 2021 by old3bob

[Toni]

21 hours ago, Taomeow said:

A couple of days ago, from a Ukrainian doctor working with covid patients in Mumbai, India, Oleksandr Kuharchuk:

   

"Shake off the veil of absolute numbers from your eyes! Yesterday in India, the maximum rate of daily detection of infected people during the entire pandemic was recorded -- 362,902 people, which is 0.028% of the total population of the country.

As for funeral pyres, they've been burning in India for thousands of years and will burn for thousands more -- that's the Hindu custom.  It's just that you weren't shown them before -- because, by the same custom, it is forbidden to make photos or videos of the funeral pyres!"

 

As for covid-19 death rate (persons per million), India is currently on the 39th place in the world (which is far lower than the US and most of Europe).  What it really suffers from is the usual -- devastating poverty, malnutrition, hunger, famine, abysmal scarcity of medical resources.  Things that are "the usual" for a post-colonial country, only made worse by a new and improved wave of corporate looting.

 

The latest graph looks like this:

 

 

 

Note the timing.  

Do you have the link to the source ?

[dwai]

I think it's more than just statistics. I'm hearing reports of friends and family falling sick. Lost an aunt to it last December.  We can't reduce this kind of pandemic to mere numbers...the human factor looms large.

 

Kind of like the question I asked when the local school district was trying to start in-person classes last year, quoting statistics, "Only 1% are affected", they said.

 

So I asked, "whose kids do you think are dispensible that you're willing to risk in-person classes?"

[escott]

Thought Problem: If you were told that all you had to do is live in solitary confinement in a 8ft by 8ft room and all of your basic needs would be met then you would live to be 500 years old, would you do it?

[silent thunder]

14 minutes ago, escott said:

Thought Problem: If you were told that all you had to do is live in solitary confinement in a 8ft by 8ft room and all of your basic needs would be met then you would live to be 500 years old, would you do it?

What is the sound of the color 9?

[Limahong]

2 hours ago, silent thunder said:

 

What is the sound of the color 9?

 

 

 

silent thunder

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

6 hours ago, escott said:

Thought Problem: If you were told that all you had to do is live in solitary confinement in a 8ft by 8ft room and all of your basic needs would be met then you would live to be 500 years old, would you do it?

 

More, a problem with thoughts , I think .

 

The trouble with that is , my 'basic needs' cannot be met  by being confined in a solitary 8 X 8 room I doubt anyone's can, we are social animals, primates, that need interaction in an  extended family group .

 

Not sure what it has to do with India ? 

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, silent thunder said:

What is the sound of the color 9?

 

Like a silvery echoing moon chimegong

[escott]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

 

More, a problem with thoughts , I think .

 

The trouble with that is , my 'basic needs' cannot be met  by being confined in a solitary 8 X 8 room I doubt anyone's can, we are social animals, primates, that need interaction in an  extended family group .

 

Not sure what it has to do with India ? 

And... Children's basic needs aren't being met by being locked up at home doing remote learning, "We are social animals." My kids did it for a while, it was Hell. Especially for my 6 year old in kindergarten. Thankfully, in my school district they have been in-person for most of the year. I think you just unknowingly reinforced my point. This is why the statistics matter.

[Taomeow]

9 hours ago, dwai said:

I think it's more than just statistics. I'm hearing reports of friends and family falling sick. Lost an aunt to it last December.  We can't reduce this kind of pandemic to mere numbers...the human factor looms large.

 

Decisions about the "human factor" or rather human life are made on the basis of numbers though -- or so we are told.  So it stands to reason to fight fire with fire, i.e. numbers with numbers -- fake numbers with real numbers, manipulated narratives with factual ones.  So far, the death rate in New York has been 17 times that of India.  When the media ignores that because, you know, the mayor of New York and the governor of the state are...  well, I wouldn't want to guess what they are that makes them media darlings...  and instead scream their heads off about the situation in India, what numbers exactly and what human factors exactly loom large?..

 

In any event, I wouldn't know where to begin with how many decisions justified by wrong/misleading/manipulated numbers have been made that were, and are, not just unhelpful but appear to be spawned from some unimaginable, other-dimensional hell of lies and (occasionally) well-intended but ignorant, idiotic and harmful half-truths (which are worse than outright lies because they make the lies more believable, give them undeserved credibility -- and turn falsehoods into monoliths in people's consciousness that can outlast the pyramids.)  But I have sworn off the subject quite a while ago...  this was just a slip of the keyboard.  I'll try not to lose my guard in the future. 

 

[liminal_luke]

Statistics and what we´ve called the "human element" appear to be wildly different ways of knowing, but need not be set one against the other.  I think we´ll know best how to proceed when we bring the intelligences of the head and heart together.  

[dwai]

2 hours ago, Taomeow said:

So far, the death rate in New York has been 17 times that of India

How does that impact or alter in any way the the daily cases of people dying in both countries?
 

Is it the case somehow that lives of Americans (or any other nation) are more valuable than those of Indians? Or vice versa?
 

I would say not at all! 
 

The per capita statistic doesn’t do much for those affected by this disease, or those millions who have struggled and are struggling to find help in any meaningful way. 
 

Edited May 7, 2021 by dwai

[Taomeow]

3 hours ago, dwai said:

How does that impact or alter in any way the the daily cases of people dying in both countries?

 

It impacts perceptions.  Distorted perceptions lead to distorted actions.  Distorted actions kill people.  Accurate perceptions lead to correct actions.  Correct actions save lives.  

 

3 hours ago, dwai said:

 

Is it the case somehow that lives of Americans (or any other nation) are more valuable than those of Indians? Or vice versa?
 

I would say not at all! 

 

Neither I nor you know the situation in at least 180 countries of the 221 affected by the pandemic.  It doesn't mean any of them "don't matter."  It means the MSM (which is merely the mouthpiece of the decision-makers and movers-shakers) ignores some stories and blows up other stories as a matter of routine.  That's what I was talking about.  Discussion of the straw man argument respectfully declined.  

[dwai]

4 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

It impacts perceptions.  Distorted perceptions lead to distorted actions.  Distorted actions kill people.  Accurate perceptions lead to correct actions.  Correct actions save lives.  

What would correct action be in this case?
 

When india locked down for 6+ months last year, the spread was contained. It also decimated its economy.

 

Vaccinations started well but lost steam due to anti-Vaxer conspiracy theories and disinformation, along with embargo on raw materials etc in place to make big Pharma richer.

 

India opened up her economy again before vaccinating enough of the population(and it was a proposition of letting millions starve or work) and soon enough the second wave happened.

 

4 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

 

Neither I nor you know the situation in at least 180 countries of the 221 affected by the pandemic.  It doesn't mean any of them "don't matter."  It means the MSM (which is merely the mouthpiece of the decision-makers and movers-shakers) ignores some stories and blows up other stories as a matter of routine.  That's what I was talking about.  Discussion of the straw man argument respectfully declined.  

I was not setting up a straw man argument at all. I’m pretty sure you don’t think any one country matters more than another, or that a person’s nationality (or any other identity) should affect the value of their life.

 

I’m no fan of MSM — which I do believe has been coopted by certain politically motivated ideologues and/or ironically also weaponized by large business interests. 
 

IMHO MSM makes so much noise when it comes to tragedies like this in India or other developing nations from a position of gleeful condescension — a throwback on the colonial racism and supremacy (though now camouflaged in some other garb). Take for example the images of funeral pyres — will they do that with bodies of westerners in a similar case? They rightly respect the privacy and sanctity of the dead in western nations (for the most part) but the same consideration is not applicable to India or Indians.  

And, I bet you dollars to donuts  someone will win a journalism award for the obviously insensitive images of the burning pyres in India. 

 

[doc benway]

10 minutes ago, dwai said:

Take for example the images of funeral pyres — will they do that with bodies of westerners in a similar case? They rightly respect the privacy and sanctity of the dead in western nations (for the most part) but the same consideration is not applicable to India or Indians.  

And, I bet you dollars to donuts  someone will win a journalism award for the obviously insensitive images of the burning pyres in India.

 

It’s not at all unusual in the west to publish photos of funerals, graves, cemeteries, and coffins. I see that as more or less comparable to funeral pyres elsewhere. In neither case are corpses on display. This is why I did not anticipate your reaction to the photos I posted the other day. Do you feel there is a major difference?

[old3bob]

16 hours ago, escott said:

And... Children's basic needs aren't being met by being locked up at home doing remote learning, "We are social animals." My kids did it for a while, it was Hell. Especially for my 6 year old in kindergarten. Thankfully, in my school district they have been in-person for most of the year. I think you just unknowingly reinforced my point. This is why the statistics matter.

 

if ones  parents, grandparents,  other family members and or friends are suffering or dead from covid there will not be much care free and often  indulgent "socializing"...(as large numbers of college kids are doing)) it should be black and white obvious that  we have had pain and in the worst cases mourning which has happened to lots of families!  Btw. many states have black and white rules about certain health matters, for instance if you are not tested for and clear of TB or whatever other diseases then you can not work as food handlers/cooks;  Yet there are some trump like  idiotic fools  who want to enjoy living a "Reality TV" life similar to what was depicted on the old apprentice show which was driven by  greedy liars, cheats and thief's of debased one-up-man-ship.. or some who simply want to cheer on their god anointed dictator who will take them to the promised land, which in their case  analogy wise translates to them having the  freedom  not to deal with things like TB or covid in restaurant workers since such is just another leftist lie from "snowflakes" as far as they are concerned.  Talk about acting on misinformation!

Edited May 7, 2021 by old3bob

[liminal_luke]

I´ve never had much luck deciphering the statistical analyses of wild Taoist cats.  Who knows how they arrive at their views, views that are, more often than not, spectacularly at odds with my newsfeed?  Rumor has it that yarrow sticks are thrown, feline phone trees activated (in who knows how many meow tongues), and scientific journals poured over late into the night.  I´ve stopped trying to figure it out.

 

But there´s one thing I´m pretty sure of: many white people in the US and the "west" generally devalue people who do not look and act like themselves.  For the most part, it´s not the felines who are responsible for this behavior -- it´s a human thing.  Sad.  As a gringo living in Mexico, I´m aware of how this racial and cultural devaluation hurts many Mexicans.  I do not know many Indians personally but can´t imagine anybody enjoys having their lives dismissed and forgotten.  Black people matter.  Indians too.  

 

I do not know how the Covid situation in India compares with New York or anywhere else.  Statistics aside, each Covid death is a tragedy for the very real people left behind.

Edited May 7, 2021 by liminal_luke

[dwai]

1 hour ago, steve said:

 

It’s not at all unusual in the west to publish photos of funerals, graves, cemeteries, and coffins. I see that as more or less comparable to funeral pyres elsewhere. In neither case are corpses on display. This is why I did not anticipate your reaction to the photos I posted the other day. Do you feel there is a major difference?

I think this article captures the sentiments of many Indians/diaspora. 
 

https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/western-media-double-standard-for-crises-in-foreign-countries-by-brahma-chellaney-2021-05

[old3bob]

53 minutes ago, dwai said:

I think this article captures the sentiments of many Indians/diaspora. 
 

https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/western-media-double-standard-for-crises-in-foreign-countries-by-brahma-chellaney-2021-05

 

the article may capture what many Indians are feeling on the subject yet I think the article also has exaggerations in that many of the horrible facts in the west have also been reported graphically not unlike the tragic stories coming out of India recently.  For instance the many thousands of deaths in a medically advanced Italy earlier on with a patient overflow causing some to be left in hallways to die more or less alone, then later on the same happening in many parts of the US.  (with deceased people then being stacked into and being hauled off in refrigerated 18 wheeler type trucks)  All of which should have made a searing impression on anyone regardless of their country.  

 

[forestofclarity]

COVID death is only one COVID related metric. Others are ongoing medical issues, i.e. "long haul COVID." Plus, collapsing the entire medical system has vast second order effects. How many are suffering and dying because the hospitals are overwhelmed, the medical staff is exhausted, etc. 

 

2 hours ago, steve said:

 

It’s not at all unusual in the west to publish photos of funerals, graves, cemeteries, and coffins. I see that as more or less comparable to funeral pyres elsewhere. In neither case are corpses on display. This is why I did not anticipate your reaction to the photos I posted the other day. Do you feel there is a major difference?

 

I don't really see a lot of death images in the West. I feel we do everything in our power to deny its very existence. 

 

[dwai]

7 minutes ago, old3bob said:

All of which should have made a searing impression on anyone regardless of their country

100% and emphatically agreed! 

[Apech]

59 minutes ago, dwai said:

I think this article captures the sentiments of many Indians/diaspora. 
 

https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/western-media-double-standard-for-crises-in-foreign-countries-by-brahma-chellaney-2021-05

 

I certainly noticed a sense of 'comfort' from the mainstream media journos reporting from India.  A pandemic actually in the west left them breathless and confused (and caused a lot of misinformation and blame hurling) - but when it came to India - distant, 'third world' (?), teeming with people of another culture - they were back in their comfort zone ... look at these poor people with their crowded hospitals, the desperate battle for huge cylinders of the blessed oxygen ... we must send help, aid, pity etc.  The subtext being 'they have disease because they are undeveloped and 'there are too many of them' and so on.  And this goes with the funeral pyre fascination (echoes of the Indian Raj reaction to suttee) and general voyeurism of it all.

 

I don't think it is harsh or unfeeling to expect in a country of billions more people will die than one of millions - I don't think it reflects on the value or dignity of human life to make percentage comparisons.  But it's a blunt tool which could lead to enormous misconceptions.  India for instance is vast and comprises thousands (?) of communities, local populations densities, villages, jungles, deserts etc etc.  To apply a figure to the whole that actually means anything is probably impossible.  Just as in  my own country when they reported so many death in a day ... I would just ask but where, were they linked how was it spread, did they die of Covid or with Covid? and so on.

 

 

[doc benway]

22 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

COVID death is only one COVID related metric. Others are ongoing medical issues, i.e. "long haul COVID." Plus, collapsing the entire medical system has vast second order effects. How many are suffering and dying because the hospitals are overwhelmed, the medical staff is exhausted, etc. 

 

This is an important fact that is often overlooked. Covid deaths and illness are unavoidable. Allowing hospital systems to become overwhelmed is less so. Somehow avoidable deaths and suffering are a bit more painful. This is what drives a lot of what is considered by some to be over-reactivity to Covid, IMO.

 

22 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

 

I don't really see a lot of death images in the West. I feel we do everything in our power to deny its very existence. 

 

 

A lot? No, but they do exist and are generally published to elicit a reaction as is everything published in western media. I agree that denial if death is paramount in US culture, unfortunately.