Are negative emotions the cause of sickness?

[Bhathen]

5 hours ago, Taomeow said:

A memory of how to come from the source and a memory of how to return to the source.

 

@Taomeow Why did we come on this long journey only to go back to the source? Or is the destination something else?

[dwai]

5 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

Indeed it depends on the framework one subscribes to.  If I ever found myself attending a meeting of Hindu/Buddhists Anonymous, I'd be promptly kicked out.  Hi.  My name is Taomeow, and I'm a taoist. 

 

So I'll just leave it at that and let Laozi share his opinion instead:

 

Therefore the person should be viewed as a person.

The family should be viewed as a family.

The community should be viewed as a community.

The country should be viewed as a country.

And the world should be viewed as the world.*

 

For the transactional context, sure. Imagine you wake up with amnesia on the set of a play. You believe it is “real” and act and behave like that — enemies are enemies, friends are friends, love and hate with total conviction. Then one day you realize that it is just a play. What happens to that conviction and seriousness? Won’t it just become a play? 

5 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

You and those who share your approach always do the opposite -- and that opposite is not part of my tradition and also nowhere near my experience and falls afoul of my personal cognition.  My tradition maintains we live in the real world.  We are persons in this world who should be viewed as persons.  Our personalities are of interest as personalities, and are not made insignificant, nonexistent or inconsequential by the fact that some bigger-better whole is also real.  A glass of water is not a "projection" of some "more real" water.  When you are thirsty, you don't quench your thirst with some grand idea of water being an illusion, or of your thirst being a projection, or of you yourself not really existing.  Or do you?  I dunno.  I don't.  
 

Sure enjoy the play while it lasts. You’ll be in deep trouble if you take it seriously ... unable to get off the ride  

5 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

Well, your thirst is memory of water nourishing life...  and if it wasn't so, you could easily quench your thirst and nourish your life with sand perhaps?  Or with gasoline?  Or with right words, right actions, black hat, white shoes, Cadillac?.. 

Nothing wrong with memories...they are the rules of the play. 

5 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

Your life's origin, in its turn, is memory of an unbroken lineage of ancestors, their actual existence in reality, their genes, their DNA, their jing.  Mind you "memory" is not equal to vague recollections in the head that are universally sloppily mistaken for what memory is.  Every step of the way I'm talking about memory as the only way any reality can exist.  Your molecules only stick together because they remember how. 
 

I’m not even referring to the head when I say mind or memory. Memory isn’t in the body at all...it’s all in the “cloud”, it has always been in the cloud. The local memory of the body is simply a cache of a limited set of events and things needed to boot up this play/game. 

5 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

Your doorknob doesn't have the same memory of what brought it into existence built into what it is and so can't be equated to you under any circumstances.  A person is a person.  A doorknob is a doorknob.  An unbroken lineage all the way to the source is memory.  Let's capitalize for clarity.  Memory is the Way to the Source.  If you have this memory, the memory of all-the-way-to-the-source, you have consciousness.  The source itself is not consciousness.  You need to co-create consciousness with the source by forming a memory. 
 

 

this is where I would disagree. The source is nothing but consciousness. There is nothing apart from the source — there is no taomeow apart from the source (aka consciousness). 

5 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

A memory of how to come from the source and a memory of how to return to the source.  No memory of the way to the source, no consciousness. A doorknob is a doorknob.   It's not a projection of some unified consciousness.  It's real.  It's a real doorknob.  But its memory is short, and its consciousness is therefore limited to a few metallurgic and metal-working operations that brought it into existence.  A person is different.  Her personal memory is greater than that of the world, because it originates from the Source in an unbroken lineage.  So some persons are more conscious than some doorknobs because of that.  Persons who don't suffer from total personal amnesia.    
 

so a person with Alzheimer’s is a doorknob? Things don’t become conscious because of memory. Memories are possible because you are conscious. A doorknob has no purpose for existence without some conscious being with the memory of how and why to use the doorknob. A conscious being doesn’t need a doorknob to exist.  

5 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

Now does it make a bit more sense when I say, for short, that "I equate memory with consciousness?"  Yes?  Great.  No?  Well, to each their own.        

 

*(TTC 54, Wing-tsit Chan, which I believe is the best translation into English in that it's the closest to the original, with translator's infusion into the text of his own ideas absolutely reduced to the minimum compared to others.)  

 

Actually it doesn’t. I just showed you that memory depends on consciousness — consciousness is perfectly happy and contented to be without memory or any other thing. 

[Taomeow]

17 hours ago, Bhathen said:

 

@Taomeow Why did we come on this long journey only to go back to the source? Or is the destination something else?

 

Well, I think the "macro" explanation is, "as above so below." And "above"-- or rather, both above and below, underlying all things -- is the pattern of tao.  "The way of tao is motion and the pattern of this motion is return."  There's built-in laws of how tao operates, "the way and its power" lies in self-similarity, in being patterned on nature -- reflected in the fundamental taoist principle "tao fa ziran."  Observing nature, with its ever-repeating cycles, from the great cosmic seasons of Conception, Growth, Fruition, Consummation followed by the great return -- down to every seed that remembers this cycle and repeats it -- has led the great sages to the conclusion that "to and fro goes the way."  And is never exhausted, never lost unless you forget how to go "to" or "fro."  But tao is not amnesiac.  Nature is not amnesiac.  And that's why reality will never "forget" to exist.

 

Yet a human being can.  A human being can become self-important enough to ignore the patterns of nature instead of observing and following them.  A human being can be conditioned to believe that unverifiable made-up shit happening in his brainwashed head is the pattern reality follows instead.  A human being can lose the Way.

 

Taoist sages were aware of that and came up with the remedy.  The remedy is to relearn to be fully human.  The real human.  And the real human follows tao, and the way of tao is motion, and the pattern of this motion is return.  Monkey see monkey do.    A smart monkey knows that it's too dumb to come up with something better in its mind than what's born of the mind of tao.  A dumb monkey thinks its mind is better, and in that monkey mind might come up with better ideas.  E.g., the idea to discard its monkey mind toward getting some miraculous "awareness" as a trade-off, much like one would trade in an old car and get an everlasting car with an eternal engine instead.  As though not having a monkey mind (which however every monkey that's ever tried to discard it invariably failed to discard) means you're getting something better on autopilot.  After all, the ever-so-honest salesman told you so, and that's all the proof you need.  Nevermind the better car you're getting instead doesn't even exist.  The ever-so-honest salesman has given you the keys, so the better car will surely materialize as soon as you quit being attached to it.

 

Human beliefs are nuts. 

 

Nature's mind is real.  It operates a certain way -- and the choice is between accepting it as is or making shit up.  I prefer to accept it.  Who am I to blow against the wind.

[liminal_luke]

...

Edited May 23, 2021 by liminal_luke

[Limahong]

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

 

The enlightenment I want is granular: every cell, every memory infused with awareness, nothing pushed under the non-dual carpet.

 

 

Hi Jesse,

 

A "non-dual carpet" is woven with the dualist threads of a Life lived...?

 

  

 

 

We may be able to push 'things' under a carpet.

 

But can the same 'things' hold well behind a tapestry of Life?

 

 

 

Is there a magic carpet ride?

 

- Anand

 

 

 

[Taomeow]

@liminal_luke Ack, missed my chance to start competing with your planned edition of "Selected deletions of Taomeow" and start working on "Selected deletions of Liminal Luke." 

[liminal_luke]

16 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

@liminal_luke Ack, missed my chance to start competing with your planned edition of "Selected deletions of Taomeow" and start working on "Selected deletions of Liminal Luke." 

 

The quote Limahong posted captures the essence of my deleted post.  For obvious reasons, I decided it woud be best to stay out of a ring already occupied by a tiger and a non-duelist.  

Edited May 23, 2021 by liminal_luke

[Taomeow]

41 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

The quote Limahong posted captures the essence of my deleted post.  For obvious reasons, I decided it woud be best to stay out of a ring already occupied by a tiger and a non-duelist.  

 

He may be a non-dualist but hardly a non-duelist -- he keeps challenging me to duels all the time.  But you know what happens when you throw a gauntlet at a cat...  she might just chase it around the floor for a while and then push it under the sofa and walk away. 

[Bindi]

6 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

Well, I think the "macro" explanation is, "as above so below." And "above"-- or rather, both above and below, underlying all things -- is the pattern of tao.  "The way of tao is motion and the pattern of this motion is return."  There's built-in laws of how tao operates, "the way and its power" lies in self-similarity, in being patterned on nature -- reflected in the fundamental taoist principle "tao fa ziran."  Observing nature, with its ever-repeating cycles, from the great cosmic seasons of Conception, Growth, Fruition, Consummation followed by the great return -- down to every seed that remembers this cycle and repeats it -- has led the great sages to the conclusion that "to and fro goes the way."  And is never exhausted, never lost unless you forget how to go "to" or "fro."  But tao is not amnesiac.  Nature is not amnesiac.  And that's why reality will never "forget" to exist.

 

As a very slight aside, have you ever considered that DNA, our most fundamental building block, is the same pattern as the one offered by Yoga as the subtle energy body? Coincidence, or an instance of nature with its ever repeating patterns?

 

 

 

Quote

 

Yet a human being can.  A human being can become self-important enough to ignore the patterns of nature instead of observing and following them.  A human being can be conditioned to believe that unverifiable made-up shit happening in his brainwashed head is the pattern reality follows instead.  A human being can lose the Way.

 

Absolutely, and it happens an awful lot. 

 

Quote

Taoist sages were aware of that and came up with the remedy.  The remedy is to relearn to be fully human.  The real human.  And the real human follows tao, and the way of tao is motion, and the pattern of this motion is return.  Monkey see monkey do.    A smart monkey knows that it's too dumb to come up with something better in its mind than what's born of the mind of tao.  A dumb monkey thinks its mind is better, and in that monkey mind might come up with better ideas.  E.g., the idea to discard its monkey mind toward getting some miraculous "awareness" as a trade-off, much like one would trade in an old car and get an everlasting car with an eternal engine instead.  As though not having a monkey mind (which however every monkey that's ever tried to discard it invariably failed to discard) means you're getting something better on autopilot.  After all, the ever-so-honest salesman told you so, and that's all the proof you need.  Nevermind the better car you're getting instead doesn't even exist.  The ever-so-honest salesman has given you the keys, so the better car will surely materialize as soon as you quit being attached to it.

 

Human beliefs are nuts. 

 

Nature's mind is real.  It operates a certain way -- and the choice is between accepting it as is or making shit up.  I prefer to accept it.  Who am I to blow against the wind.

 

[forestofclarity]

22 hours ago, Taomeow said:

Nature's mind is real.  It operates a certain way -- and the choice is between accepting it as is or making shit up.  I prefer to accept it.  Who am I to blow against the wind.

 

Everyone of course thinks they are doing this, or some equivalent--- aligning with the dharma, following God's will, etc. The issue is discernment. Personally, I've found that most established spiritual paths are quite experiential. I've also found that what one experiences depends on the specific tradition one follows. I don't think it is such a stark either/or. 

 

Having said that, there are "awareness" type teachings in Daoism. 

 

----------

 

Sometimes for fun, when I see some one is having issues with non-dual type teachings,, I like to insert the word "space" instead of awareness. It sort of throws everything in a new light.

 

[Taomeow]

15 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

As a very slight aside, have you ever considered that DNA, our most fundamental building block, is the same pattern as the one offered by Yoga as the subtle energy body? Coincidence, or an instance of nature with its ever repeating patterns?
 

 

Not coincidence of course.  The spiral pattern, with a combo of clockwise and counterclockwise vortexes, is not only common but fundamental in nature and governs countless processes on all levels.  The human body follows it too, and not just the subtle body -- even on the gross level, our bones are actually spirals, and the heart, as it has recently been established with high resolution imagery, is really helical in its structure.  Ancient sciences that noticed, explored, and learned to use these universal patterns, with whatever methods they devised, are more of a rule than the exception.  In competent taiji, we also rely massively on the "corkscrew" spiral forces (peng) we learn to discern, generate and use in our patterns of movement, internal and external.  Spiral movements prioritize actions that are curved rather than angular and utilize the opening and closing of all of the joints in sequence.  A slow sequence in training, a very rapid sequence in competent applications, so the peng-driven discharge is a snapping force, like that of a twisted whip rather than a straight stick.  Just one example of course...  helices and double helices are all over taoism too.  

[stirling]

On 5/22/2021 at 11:42 AM, Taomeow said:

 

See my response to Dwai -- 

and as for characterizing my view in a statement, it is a co-creation between taoism proper (minus all the foreign influences some schools have absorbed) and my own forays into taoist arts, sciences and practices.  The word "memory" is used here in the broad/genuine sense which is closest to the taoist concept of jing in the broad/genuine sense -- a pattern of origin.  Something that really happened to bring a live being into existence, beginning from the beginning of its living history. 

 

I appreciate the clarity and candor of your response to Dwai. One of the things that is harder to get about the relative/absolute in Buddhism is how the duality/non-duality co-exist and co-create things as they are. My experience is that in this moment the conditions for what is happening, INCLUDING "my" intention in this moment arise together to form the unfolding. As I believe you are suggesting, there isn't some magical, deeper level that exist apart from this,  it is all here now, all interconnected and inter-happening and always has been. Realization of the always present "deeper" layer of non-duality doesn't make the dualistic world of people, things, time and space go away, it is just realized that they always have existed as a center less, self-less, thing-less unity underneath. 

[Taomeow]

19 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

I appreciate the clarity and candor of your response to Dwai. One of the things that is harder to get about the relative/absolute in Buddhism is how the duality/non-duality co-exist and co-create things as they are. My experience is that in this moment the conditions for what is happening, INCLUDING "my" intention in this moment arise together to form the unfolding. As I believe you are suggesting, there isn't some magical, deeper level that exist apart from this,  it is all here now, all interconnected and inter-happening and always has been. Realization of the always present "deeper" layer of non-duality doesn't make the dualistic world of people, things, time and space go away, it is just realized that they always have existed as a center less, self-less, thing-less unity underneath. 

 

Yes.  It's always there and all of it is real -- even the illusions.  Anything that has impact is real.  Anything that doesn't have impact (the unmanifest, tao-in-stillness) is both its birthplace and its destination.  "Being comes from nonbeing.  Nonbeing reverts to being."   "To and fro goes the Way."

 

A master of old, Qingyuan Weixin, put this remarkable realization in simple terms (often quoted but IMO seldom understood): 

 

Before realization, I saw mountains as mountains, and waters as waters. When I arrived at a more intimate knowledge, I came to the point where I saw that mountains are not mountains, and waters are not waters. But now that I have got its very substance, I see mountains once again as mountains, and waters once again as waters. 

 

This 9th century Zen master asserted it took him 30 years of study to come to this realization.  So those who didn't might still have a chance -- maybe they're currently at stage 2 of the process.  No hurry and no worry -- unless they proselytize to those at stage 3, where proselytizing is proselytizing again and those who aren't into that are those who aren't into that again.    Stage 3 where things are what they are no matter what other things they are or are not to anyone at stage 2. 

 

Methinks taoism is a shorter way to this realization (took me maybe the first 3 years of study to "get there" ) but everyone finds their own pace -- it's not a sprint and not even an ultramarathon -- and perhaps their own destination.  

[stirling]

4 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

Yes.  It's always there and all of it is real -- even the illusions.  Anything that has impact is real.  Anything that doesn't have impact (the unmanifest, tao-in-stillness) is both its birthplace and its destination.  "Being comes from nonbeing.  Nonbeing reverts to being."   "To and fro goes the Way."

 

A master of old, Qingyuan Weixin, put this remarkable realization in simple terms (often quoted but IMO seldom understood): 

 

Before realization, I saw mountains as mountains, and waters as waters. When I arrived at a more intimate knowledge, I came to the point where I saw that mountains are not mountains, and waters are not waters. But now that I have got its very substance, I see mountains once again as mountains, and waters once again as waters. 

 

This 9th century Zen master asserted it took him 30 years of study to come to this realization.  So those who didn't might still have a chance -- maybe they're currently at stage 2 of the process.  No hurry and no worry -- unless they proselytize to those at stage 3, where proselytizing is proselytizing again and those who aren't into that are those who aren't into that again.    Stage 3 where things are what they are no matter what other things they are or are not to anyone at stage 2. 

 

Methinks taoism is a shorter way to this realization (took me maybe the first 3 years of study to "get there" ) but everyone finds their own pace -- it's not a sprint and not even an ultramarathon -- and perhaps their own destination.  

 

Very nicely put. As a student of Dzogchen and a Zen priest, I can say that my experience is that both share many aspects very deeply with Daoism, which was my first love. The accepted standard "post insight" period is about 10 years, but more like 3 for most people I have met, but proximity to a realized teacher makes a BIG difference, or so it seems. Of course the whole story of the time it takes or doesn't take is a nonsense anyway.