Cos we all love Gobekli Tepe

[Apech]

Nungali ... I know it's Sweatman but just give it a chance ... ok?

 

 

 

[Nungali]

 

I dont have a problem with it at all ...  he is just reporting on new findings and ideas  ( except for the last minute ) .

 

I often dont think we get the full story.  What ?  ... people involved in the dig thought all those square buildings, being built on top of the ruins of others ... in layers where temples too ?    Hundreds of temples for groups of nomads that  only hunted ?   I often wonder about what is' presented to us '   compared to what people in the field think .

 

Temples    ...   temples everywhere  !

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

The pop idea seems to be  that agriculture developed everywhere the same as it did in the Fertile Crescent . . .  or , developed how we think it did there .    In this regard the situation in Australia  is interesting  .... hunters and gatherers ... who also did some agriculture and, in places, lived in stone hut  ' villages' .

 

or at Orkney ... where at a time before the  building of Stonehenge, they not only had massive gatherings and feasts but the evidence ( feast left overs - bones etc ) shows, not only the amazing amount of cattle consumed , but the where all from one herd .

 

s Sweatman pointed out  .... its  still  question after question after question  .

[Apech]

50 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

I dont have a problem with it at all ...  he is just reporting on new findings and ideas  ( except for the last minute ) .

 

I often dont think we get the full story.  What ?  ... people involved in the dig thought all those square buildings, being built on top of the ruins of others ... in layers where temples too ?    Hundreds of temples for groups of nomads that  only hunted ?   I often wonder about what is' presented to us '   compared to what people in the field think .

 

Temples    ...   temples everywhere  !

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

The pop idea seems to be  that agriculture developed everywhere the same as it did in the Fertile Crescent . . .  or , developed how we think it did there .    In this regard the situation in Australia  is interesting  .... hunters and gatherers ... who also did some agriculture and, in places, lived in stone hut  ' villages' .

 

or at Orkney ... where at a time before the  building of Stonehenge, they not only had massive gatherings and feasts but the evidence ( feast left overs - bones etc ) shows, not only the amazing amount of cattle consumed , but the where all from one herd .

 

s Sweatman pointed out  .... its  still  question after question after question  .

 

 

I think it is naive to think that there is a single reason for people gathering in communities ... agriculture or religion etc.  Maybe people just felt more safe and secure when they banded together ... and the other things came after.  Why couldn't psychology be the determining factor?  ie.  agriculture took off because of the necessities of living together?  religion became encoded for the same reason ... they developed ways to bind themselves together and enforce social rules?

 

 

[Nungali]

I found this postulation interesting -  it has to do with the large number of animals available for feasting at such sites ( due to the amount of remains found ) , this lead some to speculate that animal husbandry and farming may have started earlier than thought   ( " G.T. 're writes history !! "  )   .... but maybe not - research is still underway  :

 

By 'FLK'

 

" On a fluke, I learned something new today. When I first learned about the site at Gobekli Tepe some years ago, one of the main points in the article I was reading discussed the phenomenal amount of gazelle bones found at the site. My general impression at the time was something like: "Yeah, those big stone structures are neat, but someone needs to seriously examine the surrounding landscape for some sort of stone lanes to capture migratory game animals." The idea being that before one goes off writing new grand theories on how the site changes everything (as everybody seemed to be doing), one ought to at least try to figure out how the site fit within the landscape in order to truly understand the situation.

Today, completely by accident, I discovered that such structures actually do exist within that region. In an old archaeology textbook of mine I found a case study of a site called Abu Hureyra in the Euphrates valley in northern Syria, which was roughly contemporary to Gobekli Tepe in its span of occupation. It too had an assemblage of animal remains comparable to that at Gobekli Tepe—approximately 80% gazelles. The researchers of that site hypothesized an association with regional features referred to as "desert kites," stone structures consisting of angled lanes for funneling game animals into stone corrals where the animals would be slaughtered. They hypothesized some potential migratory routes for gazelles through Syria and Jordan based on the distribution of such structures. While these researchers have postulated a regional association between the site and desert kites to the south, one of the sources linked below (Desert Kites, a New Appraisal) notes that no desert kites have been identified in the immediate area around Abu Hureyra.

One of the intriguing things about desert kites and other such game capturing corrals is that it seems natural to infer that the construction and use of these features would have played some role in the eventual domestication of various livestock species. Some researchers have suggested that faunal remains at some sites indicating the culling of primarily male animals might indicate management practices relevant to the question of domestication. But apparently there could be natural explanations, and the question remains disputed.

Other animal bones at Abu Hureyra included sheep and goats making up about 10% of the faunal assemblage. It is unknown whether they were wild or domestic. However, unlike gazelles which were exploited seasonally, sheep and goat appear to have been slaughtered throughout the year, a pattern which might imply possible domestication. In the latter part of the site's occupancy, there was an abrupt shift in which the use of sheep and goats increased to about 80%, and gazelles decreased to about 20%. The researchers speculated that overkill of gazelles may have led to declining populations and disruption of migratory patterns.

I would really love to find some article discussing whether any of these desert kite structures are to be found in the vicinity of Gobekli Tepe, and whether any direct connection could be made among sites at a regional level. The article discussing Gazelle migration patterns below concludes that Gobekli Tepe might have had a catchment area of approximately a 10 km radius. If you know of any easily accessible articles that discuss this aspect, I'd be happy if you might post a link to them.

…
This article discusses migration patterns for different gazelle species in the region, and evidence for several communities engaging in seasonal harvests at different times of the year.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/263242061_Gazelle_behaviour_and_human_presence_at_early_Neolithic_Gobekli_Tepe_south-east_Anatolia

This article discusses desert kites as a feature, and has a really nice map showing their distribution throughout the Arabian peninsula, the Levant, the Caucasus, and beyond the Caspian. It discusses the problems and issues with classifying and dating these features.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/283813796_Desert_kites_in_Jordan_-_a_new_appraisal

This is a general article on desert kites in Uzbekistan. It has a nice video showing some in the region, and then veers off into modern issues of environmental degradation related to decimated steppe antelope species. The video is really interesting in that it gives an impressive idea of the scale of these constructions. It makes one wonder whether the masonry skills involved, and the necessary community effort in construction wouldn't also have relevance when it comes to discussing what would be necessary in order to build a site such as Gobekli Tepe.
Giant ‘Arrows’ Seen From Space Point to a Vanished World
"

[Apech]

Because we all love Graham Hancock ... especially Nungali does 

 

 

[Apech]

Chucking this in here because the main sites discussed at Evora Portugal are quite near where I live and I have visited them:

 

 

 

[Nungali]

Visited them  ?    Is that your 'travelling companion' up there  ^  ...... your 'fellow researcher' ?

 

 

 

 

 

[Apech]

3 hours ago, Nungali said:

Visited them  ?    Is that your 'travelling companion' up there  ^  ...... your 'fellow researcher' ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

She's called Clickbait I believe.

[silent thunder]

Clearly that is Evora, great¹³⁰ grandmother of Elvira...

 

Spoiler

 

Edited August 8, 2021 by silent thunder

[Nungali]

Wow man , her eyeliner is as exaggerated as Tammy Baker's eyebrows !

 

 

 

 

 

I think the idea is ; you shave off your eyebrows and draw them back on again higher up .

 

But it looks like Tammy didnt have time to shave this morning    

[silent thunder]

...

Edited February 4, 2022 by silent thunder

[Nungali]

From 'Tepelegrams'  ( the team 'on site ' - the Gobekli Tepe archaeological research team ) .

 

More than a vulture: A response to Sweatman and Tsikritsis.

(  for those that dont know Sweatman and Tsikritsis  suggested  that the early Neolithic monumental enclosures at Göbekli Tepe were space observatories and the site’s complex iconography the commemoration of a catastrophic astronomical event - ‘Younger Dryas Comet Impact’).

 

 

 

 

1. The original layout of Göbekli Tepe’s monumental round-oval buildings is still subject of ongoing research (none of these structures are completely excavated as of yet). One should be aware that many of the T-pillars incorporated into the enclosures at Göbekli Tepe are not standing in their original positions and the buildings underwent significant modification during their life-cycles. Building archaeology studies have revealed that in many cases pillars were ‘recycled’, i.e. pulled out and used elsewhere. The monuments as we see them today are the culmination of multi-phase building and rebuilding events. Additionally, there is the significant possibility that we are dealing with roofed structures; this fact alone would pose limitations to a function as sky observatories.

 

2. The chronological frame Sweatman and Tsikritsis suggest for Pillar 43 (10950 BC +/- 250 years) is still 700-1000 years older than the oldest radiocarbon date so far available for Enclosure D (which stems from organic material retrieved from a wall plaster matrix). While there is evidence for later re-use of pillars (see above), assuming such a long tradition of knowledge relating to an unconfirmed (ancient) cosmic event appears extremely far-fetched. So far, any available date for Göbekli Tepe rather marks the end than the beginning of the Younger Dryas.

 

3. The assumption that asterisms are stable across time and cultures is not convincing. It is highly unlikely that early Neolithic hunters in Upper Mesopotamia recognized the exact same celestial constellations as described by ancient Egyptian, Arabian, and Greek scholars, which still populate our imagination today.

 

4. Sweatman and Tsikritsis’ contribution appears incredibly arbitrary, considering images adorning just a few selected pillars. Meanwhile more than 60 monumental limestone T-pillars are known from Göbekli Tepe – among these many feature similar carved low reliefs of animals and abstract symbols, a few even as complex as Pillar 43 (e.g. Pillar 56 in Enclosure H). Furthermore, the iconographic programme is not restricted to the limestone pillars; it is known from other find groups (including stone vessels, shaft straighteners, and plaquettes) not only from Göbekli Tepe but also from numerous contemporary sites in the wider region.

 

5. Göbekli Tepe’s iconography is actually even more complex than the paper suggests. The animals depicted on the pillars seem to follow an intentional pattern, whereby each building has a different emphasis, i.e. with one animal or more being especially prominent. If we interpret these differences as an expression of community and belonging, this could hint at different groups having been responsible for the construction of particular enclosures. In other words, specific enclosures may have served the needs of different social entities. For this reason, it is extremely problematic to pick out any one pillar and draw far-reaching but isolated interpretations while leaving out its context. A purely substitutional interpretation ignores these subtler but significant details. Details like the headless man on the shaft of Pillar 43, interpreted as a symbol of death, catastrophe and extinction by Sweatman and Tsikritsis, silently omits the clearly emphasised phallus which must contradict the lifeless notion; rather, this image implies a more versatile narrative behind these depictions. It should also be noted that there are even more reliefs on both narrow sides of Pillar 43 which apparently went unnoticed in the study at hand.

 

Pre-Pottery Neolithic iconography, by far exceeding the realms of Göbekli Tepe, is often especially concerned with articulation and disarticulation of the human body. Particularly the depiction of severed human heads or headless bodies in combination with necrophagous animals (preferably but not exclusively vultures) is a well-known theme and may be rooted in a complex multiphase Pre-Pottery Neolithic mortuary ritual. Similar depictions of a bird grasping a human head are known from Göbekli Tepe as well as life-sized human sculpture heads which were deposited within the buildings.

 

https://www.dainst.blog/the-tepe-telegrams/2017/07/03/more-than-a-vulture-a-response-to-sweatman-and-tsikritsis/

 

 

[Apech]

9 hours ago, Nungali said:

From 'Tepelegrams'  ( the team 'on site ' - the Gobekli Tepe archaeological research team ) .

 

......

 

https://www.dainst.blog/the-tepe-telegrams/2017/07/03/more-than-a-vulture-a-response-to-sweatman-and-tsikritsis/

 

 

 

He's already replied to this 

http://maajournal.com/Issues/2017/Vol17-2/Matters arising 17(2).pdf

 

page 7.

 

 

I'm not here to defend Sweatman by the way but the articles are from 2017!  I'm guessing things have moved on since then - or maybe Covid prevented this.

 

Just on Point 3.  this is typical academic high mindedness - it is perfectly possible that more or less the same asterisms were used from very ancient times (although some changes in nomenclature and iconography would be inevitable) in the Northern hemisphere.  

 

 

[Nungali]

9 hours ago, Apech said:

 

He's already replied to this 

http://maajournal.com/Issues/2017/Vol17-2/Matters arising 17(2).pdf

 

page 7.

 

 

I'm not here to defend Sweatman by the way but the articles are from 2017!  I'm guessing things have moved on since then - or maybe Covid prevented this.

 

Just on Point 3.  this is typical academic high mindedness - it is perfectly possible that more or less the same asterisms were used from very ancient times (although some changes in nomenclature and iconography would be inevitable) in the Northern hemisphere.  

 

 

 

"Academic high mindedness "   ?  

 

  'changes in iconography would be inevitable '

 

=    'changes in the identification, description, classification, and interpretation of symbols, themes, and subject matter ' .... regarding asterisms would be inevitable  ........ isnt that what I claimed all along  ?

 

[Apech]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

 

"Academic high mindedness "   ?  

 

  'changes in iconography would be inevitable '

 

=    'changes in the identification, description, classification, and interpretation of symbols, themes, and subject matter ' .... regarding asterisms would be inevitable  ........ isnt that what I claimed all along  ?

 

yeah but it is perfectly possible that the same asterisms were significant across broad periods of time and different cultures.

[Nungali]

22 hours ago, Apech said:

yeah but it is perfectly possible that the same asterisms were significant across broad periods of time and different cultures.

 

Oh certainly  significant !   I can easily agree with that .   Who can not help to notice those three stars in a row !  Thats unusual, and  they point to the brightest star in the sky .  And the Pleiades - all over the place - from Ancient Australia to  Ancient Greece talk about the 'man chasing the seven women / sisters ' .   Yet, even in Australia alone, these asterisms, in some groups , hold entirely different interpretations and meanings - although they are ' significant ' to all the groups  .

 

Archaeological and anthropological theories should be based on what is evident , not what is ' possible ' . 

 

But it isnt about them being 'significant'  is it ? Its about giving them a specific interpretation ... and a specific interpretation  that leads to a, b, c, and next thing you know we have some fantastic theory .  if you pull out a  support pillar from the base, the edifice will topple .

[Apech]

21 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

Oh certainly  significant !   I can easily agree with that .   Who can not help to notice those three stars in a row !  Thats unusual, and  they point to the brightest star in the sky .  And the Pleiades - all over the place - from Ancient Australia to  Ancient Greece talk about the 'man chasing the seven women / sisters ' .   Yet, even in Australia alone, these asterisms, in some groups , hold entirely different interpretations and meanings - although they are ' significant ' to all the groups  .

 

Archaeological and anthropological theories should be based on what is evident , not what is ' possible ' . 

 

But it isnt about them being 'significant'  is it ? Its about giving them a specific interpretation ... and a specific interpretation  that leads to a, b, c, and next thing you know we have some fantastic theory .  if you pull out a  support pillar from the base, the edifice will topple .

we should settle this like gentlemen, dawn, feather dusters at 50 paces, venue of your choosing.

[Nungali]

I cant agree with that either  

 

Its all very well to act tough when there is an internet   between us ..... take that away and see what happens ! 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anyway ,  if YOU challenge then I get to choose the weapons  .... but I will be, as I have continually demonstrated, flexible ; YOU can choose from jo, bo, boken, eku, hiwa, tanto, sai or gamma .

 

I choose hiwa  . 

 

Now, YOU can choose the venue  ... please choose one near the 'Parish of Dudley'   ( well, that's what it says on our land title ) .

 

Gosh , now thats YOU and Michael Beerglassburger  that have challenged me to a fight on DBs     ! 

 

 

 

[Apech]

12 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

 

 

 

Anyway ,  if YOU challenge then I get to choose the weapons  .... but I will be, as I have continually demonstrated, flexible ; YOU can choose from jo, bo, boken, eku, hiwa, tanto, sai or gamma .

 

I choose hiwa  . 

 

Now, YOU can choose the venue  ... please choose one near the 'Parish of Dudley'   ( well, that's what it says on our land title ) .

 

Gosh , now thats YOU and Michael Beerglassburger  that have challenged me to a fight on DBs     ! 

 

 

 

 

OK well then ...

 

bo jo ... no I am not going to use the British PM as a weapon,

broken ... I would like my weapon to be fixed please!

hiwa ... this I assume is a cheap transistor radio from the 1970's made in taiwan, so no!

tanto ... and/or the Lone Ranger?

sai? ... deep sai

gamma ... yes!  we will use Greek letters ... good plan.

 

I shall ask Michael von Schicklgruber to be my second ... and to bring his grandad Adolf with him.

 

 

[Nungali]

7 hours ago, Apech said:

 

OK well then ...

 

bo jo ... no I am not going to use the British PM as a weapon,

broken ... I would like my weapon to be fixed please!

hiwa ... this I assume is a cheap transistor radio from the 1970's made in taiwan, so no!

tanto ... and/or the Lone Ranger?

sai? ... deep sai

gamma ... yes!  we will use Greek letters ... good plan.

 

I see ..... with your deep understanding of the arts .... this should make for an interesting duel  !

 

7 hours ago, Apech said:

 

I shall ask Michael von Schicklgruber to be my second ... and to bring his grandad Adolf with him.

 

 

 

 

Oh ?  I thought you would have asked Graham Handcock  ?

 

I looked  up  this Slickgrubber dude  ;

 

 

Now at least I know what uniform  shoulder epaulettes are for ; securing the ends of your mutton chops so they dont flap about in your face and obscure vision during  high winds .

 

 

[Nungali]

Oh -  O  ! 

 

 

https://publications.dainst.org/journals/efb/article/view/2596/7095

 

 

Comments : 

 

This is a paper about the last years findings in Gobekli Tepe. To put it simple: the entire extraordinary hypothesis of this site is now under heavy criticism after excavations in and around the site.

 

There has been something odd in this story, to begin with the "all hunter-gatherer" society starting point is wrong, as datation point to Pre-Pottery Neolithic A, as other Neolithic sites in the Near East.

The structure of the site is now totally challenged, with stratigraphy altered by water flows and new buildings below the monumental area.

Everything said about this archaeological site is probably wrong, or should be heavily reformulated.

 

I found the mention of round builds being modified to become more rectangular over time very interesting. I’m glad to see some more conservative interpretations being publicized. The whole idea of religious institutions being the driving force behind the whole Neolithic revolution never sat well with me.