Unguided spontaneous Qigong. Is it bad for you (creates heart fire)?

[GreenCord]

I have been practicing unguided spontaneous Qigong for a while. I thought it was good for releasing muscle tension and there was no danger in it as it's just allowing natural movements that come out without forcing anything or adding anything foreign to your body.

 

I have been told recently that spontaneous Qigong is bad for you, will create Heart fire and should not be practiced unless advised by a teacher. Is this correct? Is it advised to stop practicing this completely?

 

In that case, would you recommend any methods to suppress those spontaneous movements when they arise? An easy method to suppress them is to add muscle tension, but that seems like a bad idea. I was wondering if there is a way to stop the movements while keeping the relaxation and not adding tension.

 

Thank you!

[senseless virtue]

Spontaneous Qigong is iffy, and the unguided variant is especially susceptible to deviations. There are only few working approaches and a lot of dangers in impure spontaneous Qigong. The most important issue is the subtle exacerbation of emotional issues, which can in fact lead to severe mental health problems and worse health.

 

The main deal is that the proper spontaneous work should be a finite process. Impure spontaneous work will never halt, but may continue generating new movement for years because there is no real release of emotional and physical tensions, however genuine it might feel.

 

There are two general ways to stop spontaneous movements:

 

1. Calm mind and have a gentle thought to stop all internal and external movement.
2. Set your mind few meters beneath your feet and allow restless energy to exit downwards for few minutes.

There might be more particular solutions depending how the spontaneous movement was generated.

[Desmonddf]

On 25/06/2021 at 4:49 PM, GreenCord said:

I have been practicing unguided spontaneous Qigong for a while. I thought it was good for releasing muscle tension and there was no danger in it as it's just allowing natural movements that come out without forcing anything or adding anything foreign to your body.

 

I have been told recently that spontaneous Qigong is bad for you, will create Heart fire and should not be practiced unless advised by a teacher. Is this correct? Is it advised to stop practicing this completely?

 

In that case, would you recommend any methods to suppress those spontaneous movements when they arise? An easy method to suppress them is to add muscle tension, but that seems like a bad idea. I was wondering if there is a way to stop the movements while keeping the relaxation and not adding tension.

 

Thank you!

 

Spontaneous movement doesn't means spontaneous qigong. Qigong involves breathing, technique and a focused consciousness. If you just feel like moving your muscles around, that shouldn't cause any damage.

 

On the other hand, spontaneous movement whenever you're relaxed is a sign of inner heat by itself (could be heart, if it is accompanied by euphoria or other yang emotions, liver if it is muscle twitching, or spleen if it is contraction). You should get it checked up.

[GreenCord]

@virtue

Thanks for the information and for the methods to stop the movement!

 

@Desmonddf

What I was doing was probably not proper Qigong. But I was applying some of the principles I read about Qigong, basically standing in Zhan Zhuang with my hands in front of my body at hip level, palms pointing down, and try set the expected feet, hip, shoulder and head alignments. Then try to do Sung Breathing in my abdomen while doing "active relaxation" of any tension I found without applying too much intention.

From doing this I was getting spontaneous movements, mostly circular movements of the shoulders, with my arms coming up to a "hugging the tree" position or going around the body. Some circular movements of the neck and unwinding of the upper back around the spine. Sometimes extending towards my legs or my forearms but mostly centered around my shoulders, upper back and neck.

I have quite rigid shoulders, both in my chest as in my upper back from bad posture and sitting too often. I felt that this spontaneous movements were helping to release deep tension and gain mobility on my shoulders better than regular stretching exercises. I felt it also was helping with slowly release tension at the hips and around the shoulders.

 

At some point I tried to learn the "Ji Ben Qi Gong" basic exercises from one of Damo Mitchell but adding movement only seemed to make the spontaneous movements more "active" and "aggressive" so I stopped and tried to keep the practice calm just at standing practice and whatever spontaneous movement that arises gently.

 

Now I have learned that this is not recommended so I'll stop until I hopefully can get a teacher at some point to continue with proper guidance.

 

Regarding your last comment about checking the source of the spontaneous movement, what type of specialist should I consult about this? Is there an online source where I can find this type of specialist near in my city or my country?

 

Thanks!
 

[forestofclarity]

Might also want to check this out:

 

 

[Desmonddf]

On 30/06/2021 at 6:04 PM, GreenCord said:

@virtue

Thanks for the information and for the methods to stop the movement!

 

@Desmonddf

What I was doing was probably not proper Qigong. But I was applying some of the principles I read about Qigong, basically standing in Zhan Zhuang with my hands in front of my body at hip level, palms pointing down, and try set the expected feet, hip, shoulder and head alignments. Then try to do Sung Breathing in my abdomen while doing "active relaxation" of any tension I found without applying too much intention.

From doing this I was getting spontaneous movements, mostly circular movements of the shoulders, with my arms coming up to a "hugging the tree" position or going around the body. Some circular movements of the neck and unwinding of the upper back around the spine. Sometimes extending towards my legs or my forearms but mostly centered around my shoulders, upper back and neck.

I have quite rigid shoulders, both in my chest as in my upper back from bad posture and sitting too often. I felt that this spontaneous movements were helping to release deep tension and gain mobility on my shoulders better than regular stretching exercises. I felt it also was helping with slowly release tension at the hips and around the shoulders.

 

At some point I tried to learn the "Ji Ben Qi Gong" basic exercises from one of Damo Mitchell but adding movement only seemed to make the spontaneous movements more "active" and "aggressive" so I stopped and tried to keep the practice calm just at standing practice and whatever spontaneous movement that arises gently.

 

Now I have learned that this is not recommended so I'll stop until I hopefully can get a teacher at some point to continue with proper guidance.

 

Regarding your last comment about checking the source of the spontaneous movement, what type of specialist should I consult about this? Is there an online source where I can find this type of specialist near in my city or my country?

 

Thanks!
 

 

A TCM practineer might help with finding a TCM approach to this. Other types of professionals might use different approaches to deal with the same issue - for instance, a psychologist might look into your personality and a holistic therapist which specializes in free dance and spontaneous body movement might help you unlock some sort of inner experience.

 

It sums down to looking for a specialist with the more confortable approach for you

 

But, don't worry. Spontaneous movement is actually very common, although a sign of something to be looked more deeply on. Most people just never come to the point of interiorization needed to manifest their inner seekings through movement.

[freeform]

On 25/06/2021 at 8:49 PM, GreenCord said:

I have been told recently that spontaneous Qigong is bad for you, will create Heart fire and should not be practiced unless advised by a teacher. Is this correct? Is it advised to stop practicing this completely?

There is nothing inherently wrong with zifagong (which is the name for what you’re describing).

 

The problem is that the course your zifagong process takes, is shaped by many things including your training, your attitude, personality, beliefs and guidance from teachers.

 

On 07/07/2021 at 4:35 AM, Desmonddf said:

a sign of something to be looked more deeply on.

 

On 30/06/2021 at 3:15 PM, Desmonddf said:

spontaneous movement whenever you're relaxed is a sign of inner heat by itself (could be heart, if it is accompanied by euphoria or other yang emotions, liver if it is muscle twitching, or spleen if it is contraction). You should get it checked up.

That is not the case for zifagong - which is very different from the spasms some people get from wind invasion and liver related issues. This is a well known process in Neigong and standard TCM understanding is not relevant here.

 

Zifagong is one of the more powerful processes that can quickly and efficiently clear out all manner of ‘blockages’ on many different layers - from physical, to energetic and emotional. Essentially it is when you have enough Yang Qi and your Dantien activates, mobilising the Qi through your system.

 

The Qi will work its way through various layers - mostly at the nervous system level to start - hence all the spasms, shaking and wild movements… it eventually moves through emotional layers (movements and experiences will change - like laughter and more entertaining ‘compound movements’) and eventually start to move into the channels, at which stage the movements will become very subtle, slow and smooth, but feel powerful internally.

 

Because the zifagong process is so malleable, that’s why it’s recommended that you’re properly supervised by a competent teacher at the early stages. You also need to understand the process and how it unfolds so that you don’t get sucked into a ‘side path’. Its proper progress is guided by understanding it as well the effect of the rest of your practice.

 

A teacher can keep an eye on how the process is developing, and just make sure to keep you from going in the wrong direction. For instance some people get fascinated and sort of indulge in it. Others treat it as some spiritual thing. Sometimes when emotions are brought up, people will delve too deeply into the feeling or content of the emotion rather than letting it go. When people misunderstand its purpose (for example giving undue importance, or even vilifying it) then it takes on the ‘shape’ of these beliefs and plays out unhealthily in that direction.
 

The truth is that it’s a process that has a beginning and an end. It’s quite mechanistic - as in it’s literally Qi touching the nerves or the outer layers of the channel system and the various bound up blockages and stored emotions etc.

 

Sometimes the process starts when you don’t have a teacher available. Unfortunately trying to ‘stop’ it or bracing against it in daily practice is also not healthy. Something like the anchoring the breath exercise above will help move you away from the process, (you must also mentally relax your mind away from that state.)

 

But it’s important to understand that this is a very useful, healthy, natural part of the Neigong process, it doesn’t inherently create issues as long as conditions are right. Not something to fear at all… like you wouldn’t fear a yawn or a sneeze.

[Desmonddf]

3 hours ago, freeform said:

There is nothing inherently wrong with zifagong (which is the name for what you’re describing).

 

The problem is that the course your zifagong process takes, is shaped by many things including your training, your attitude, personality, beliefs and guidance from teachers.

 

 

That is not the case for zifagong - which is very different from the spasms some people get from wind invasion and liver related issues. This is a well known process in Neigong and standard TCM understanding is not relevant here.

 

Zifagong is one of the more powerful processes that can quickly and efficiently clear out all manner of ‘blockages’ on many different layers - from physical, to energetic and emotional. Essentially it is when you have enough Yang Qi and your Dantien activates, mobilising the Qi through your system.

 

The Qi will work its way through various layers - mostly at the nervous system level to start - hence all the spasms, shaking and wild movements… it eventually moves through emotional layers (movements and experiences will change - like laughter and more entertaining ‘compound movements’) and eventually start to move into the channels, at which stage the movements will become very subtle, slow and smooth, but feel powerful internally.

 

Because the zifagong process is so malleable, that’s why it’s recommended that you’re properly supervised by a competent teacher at the early stages. You also need to understand the process and how it unfolds so that you don’t get sucked into a ‘side path’. Its proper progress is guided by understanding it as well the effect of the rest of your practice.

 

A teacher can keep an eye on how the process is developing, and just make sure to keep you from going in the wrong direction. For instance some people get fascinated and sort of indulge in it. Others treat it as some spiritual thing. Sometimes when emotions are brought up, people will delve too deeply into the feeling or content of the emotion rather than letting it go. When people misunderstand its purpose (for example giving undue importance, or even vilifying it) then it takes on the ‘shape’ of these beliefs and plays out unhealthily in that direction.
 

The truth is that it’s a process that has a beginning and an end. It’s quite mechanistic - as in it’s literally Qi touching the nerves or the outer layers of the channel system and the various bound up blockages and stored emotions etc.

 

Sometimes the process starts when you don’t have a teacher available. Unfortunately trying to ‘stop’ it or bracing against it in daily practice is also not healthy. Something like the anchoring the breath exercise above will help move you away from the process, (you must also mentally relax your mind away from that state.)

 

But it’s important to understand that this is a very useful, healthy, natural part of the Neigong process, it doesn’t inherently create issues as long as conditions are right. Not something to fear at all… like you wouldn’t fear a yawn or a sneeze.

 

Those altered states are, most of the times, unavailable to people. Not to mention dangerous, as you have quoted some of the potential dangers yourself.

 

Now, if something that usually takes conscious training and practice by someone who wants to achieve this kind of results "just sort of happens", that's a sign that something's wrong and need to be checked.

 

Heart fire is one of the options, as well as Heart's Yin depletion leading to a lack of roots on the Shen, which goes outside too easily, leading to  unexpected alterated states of consciousness, mimicking the effects of a yang qi tide started consciously, but with less impetus and quite a bit more potential for damage.

 

That's why I believe he should get it checked up - not because of the movement, but because it "just happened" and so happens to be a dangerous thing to happen.

 

It is a good practice, when done right. And, as I said, other forms of holistic therapy use very similar methods, such as free dance.

[freeform]

3 minutes ago, Desmonddf said:

That's why I believe he should get it checked up - not because of the movement, but because it "just happened" and so happens to be a dangerous thing to happen.

 

It didn't just happen.

 

9 minutes ago, Desmonddf said:

that usually takes conscious training and practice

 

That's exactly what he did.

 

He explained what led up to it - he's been practicing a specific standing posture applying the correct causes for the dantien to awaken.

 

I'm well aware of the posture and approach he's talking about, and if you're relatively young and healthy, your dantien will wake up and your qi will mobilise and zifagong is the expected result.

 

If it just happened out of nowhere, then yes indeed there might be something to look into.

[freeform]

@GreenCord - I looked back and now remember you had some other issues from practice.

 

As I think was advised previously, best to stop standing practice for a while. As forestofemptiness mentioned, focus on the Anchoring Breath a lot. This should be your main practice, along with some stretching and exercise.

 

These are powerful practices - and if you've had any issues, it's best to at least correspond with a teacher from their school, and eventually get some in-person training.

[GreenCord]

Thanks all for the details! I will work on anchoring the breath and try to find a teacher for guidance.

 

Regarding the anchoring the breath exercise, I wanted to ask if you had any recommendations regarding how to sit. I carry a lot of tension around some points in my spine which gives rise to those kinds of spontaneous movements if I sit long stretches on time with my spine straight, even if I do it on a chair. I was wandering if the exercise can be carried out as well laying on the floor or if it's important to keep the spine straight for it.

 

Thanks!

[freeform]

8 hours ago, GreenCord said:

I carry a lot of tension around some points in my spine which gives rise to those kinds of spontaneous movements if I sit long stretches on time with my spine straight, even if I do it on a chair

What gives rise to the movements is Yang Qi mobilising and perhaps touching on these blockages. It’s not  the blockages themselves. It’s a subtle distinction, but it’s important.

 

If you relax your mind away from the mental state that activates the yang Qi, then it won’t happen.

You’re in control - but the point of control happens much earlier in the process - once the movements have started, it means you missed the opportune point in time to relax and release away from that mental state.

 

it might take a bit of carful awareness and attention to find when your mind goes to that place, and relax and release away from it at just that point.

 

Hope that makes that sense. It takes a bit of work.

 

it is better to sit upright, as the gravity assists the process and the slight effort keeps your mind from drifting off.

[Desmonddf]

On 08/07/2021 at 1:13 PM, freeform said:

 

It didn't just happen.

 

 

That's exactly what he did.

 

He explained what led up to it - he's been practicing a specific standing posture applying the correct causes for the dantien to awaken.

 

I'm well aware of the posture and approach he's talking about, and if you're relatively young and healthy, your dantien will wake up and your qi will mobilise and zifagong is the expected result.

 

If it just happened out of nowhere, then yes indeed there might be something to look into.

 

Conscious as "consciously practicing in order to achieve this result", not "doing a certain practice that may lead to that, but I'm unaware of that fact". But whatever, do as you see fit.