Mantak chia's possible error mco, i need help, please

[senseless virtue]

15 hours ago, Sudhamma said:

what was described by Capeador1 was typical of qi-stagnation in the head caused by over-focusing of qi attempting to cross over baiweique, the meeting of hundred pressure point.

 

You are again brazenly trying to pin a certain diagnosis on someone you haven't met in person and without being a qualified medical practitioner yourself.

 

15 hours ago, Sudhamma said:

My experience gives me the confidence of stating my assumption and also the solution to the problem.

 

Ditto. Experience doesn't give qualification or competence if it lacks proper learning and penetrating wisdom.

 

15 hours ago, Sudhamma said:

Of course, it is up to Capeador 1 to confirm whether my assumption is correct and if incorrect, then my solution is also simply not valid.

 

You play the guessing game on a public forum, and then you try to bait another person, no less than an inexperienced beginner defrauded by a notorious teacher, to bear the responsibility for the correctness of the solution based on answering quite arbitrary general criteria in the manner of this phrase: "Which of the two options feels more likely to have affected your condition: your head or your breath?"

 

Do you understand that you could be put under a trial in real life for trying to offer medical advice in the similar manner and that your advice could already be interpreted as such?

 

Wake up! Compassion is good, but without wisdom complementing it you are putting yourself and others at risk.

[senseless virtue]

13 hours ago, Master Logray said:

It is why Taoist alchemy normally starts from lower Dantian in the belly region, comparing with Buddhist or Yogi who more often put the concentration in the head region like the crown chakra, third eye, eye brow or top of the head and so on.

 

Rest of your post was good, but what does naming the "Buddhist" mean in this context? It's unclear, but it seems as if you are implying that the Buddhist meditation is more likely to put concentration or emphasis on the upper part of the body somehow. Are you perhaps meaning particular traditions that might follow the breath as the initial calmness meditation step, or what?

[Master Logray]

6 hours ago, virtue said:

 

Rest of your post was good, but what does naming the "Buddhist" mean in this context? It's unclear, but it seems as if you are implying that the Buddhist meditation is more likely to put concentration or emphasis on the upper part of the body somehow. Are you perhaps meaning particular traditions that might follow the breath as the initial calmness meditation step, or what?

 

Your understanding is correct.  Buddhist is more likely to concentrate in the upper part.  It is probably to facilitate the change in consciousness, which is important in the process of enlightenment.  Consciousness is a mind function and is brain related.  The theory that the Pineal Gland being the third eye also happens to be in the head region. 

 

Taoist's Xing/Ming balance means they have to spend half of the time to take care of the body.  The important places of concentration can be quite far from the head like Gushing Spring, which is underneath the feet.   The use of this point is partly for reducing the excessive Chi and blood in the head region by diverting them down, useful for anyone older than 50. 

 

I have browsed through books of Mantak Chia.  It doesn't seem bad to me.  In fact some of the materials are good.  But you need be know something before spotting them.   However it would not be prudent to only follow the books to practise.  There are too many intricacies.   By the way what is so notorious about him?

 

 

[senseless virtue]

57 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

Buddhist is more likely to concentrate in the upper part.  It is probably to facilitate the change in consciousness, which is important in the process of enlightenment.

 

Can you give any more tangible examples of Buddhist practices that concentrate on "the upper part of the body"?

 

I'm also wondering how familiar you are with different types of Buddhist practice. Do you have much experience in them?

 

I am partly asking these because I find your assessment of Buddhist practice kind of simplistic and missing the point.

 

Mahayana Buddhism at least is very particular about that the heart is the seat of awareness (emptiness) and that the calmness of heart is the foundation for successful meditation. Buddhism has a lot of different preliminary practices and trainable preconditions that are meant for opening the heartspace, starting from the Noble Eightfold Path that culminates into Samadhi and ranging to Tibetan Buddhism which offers an entire genre of these, Ngöndro. Some Buddhist practices utilize visualizations, which are a valid example of Shen stimulating methods in terms of Daoist philosophy, but such either are advanced methods or they utilize Enlightened blessings that transform the energies through the heart-centric awareness by design.

 

57 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

Consciousness is a mind function and is brain related.  The theory that the Pineal Gland being the third eye also happens to be in the head region. 

 

 

I will have to disagree. Consciousness relates more to Daoist methods and Theravada Buddhism's Jhana trances because these traditions want to cultivate consciousness essentially. Mahayana Buddhism is about awareness, and there is a distinct emphasis there about disregarding the strange phenomena of consciousness to support the familiarization with the plain and ordinary awareness.

 

57 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

I have browsed through books of Mantak Chia.  It doesn't seem bad to me.  In fact some of the materials are good.  But you need be know something before spotting them.   However it would not be prudent to only follow the books to practise.  There are too many intricacies.

 

I feel that @Cleansox @freeform can comment better, but the general consensus that I've understood is that Mantak Chia has often appropriated genuine Neidan sources in a copy-paste fashion and without understanding or experiencing how the genuine Neidan transformations happen through non-action and stillness. The original Neidan texts were meant as road maps in that process, not as practical instruction manuals.

 

57 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

By the way what is so notorious about him?

 

A tree is known by its fruits!

[Earl Grey]

1 hour ago, Master Logray said:

I have browsed through books of Mantak Chia.  It doesn't seem bad to me.  In fact some of the materials are good.  But you need be know something before spotting them.   However it would not be prudent to only follow the books to practise.  There are too many intricacies.   By the way what is so notorious about him?

Everything.

[senseless virtue]

Quoting Freeform on Mantak Chia teachings:

 

On 8/31/2019 at 3:40 PM, freeform said:

Unfortunately Chia is known to have got it wrong - badly wrong. Sadly what Chia teaches has caused many problems for people. Sometimes severe problems. He took practices completely out of context, misunderstood them and changed them and then marketed them to the west. 

 

It’s not your fault for believing him. He makes a pretty compelling case. And it’s true that initially you do get an increase in perceived energy when practicing celibacy - so of course it all seems legitimate.

 

But unfortunately it’s not. And I know that it’s destroyed people’s lives.

 

About "semen retention" practices by Chia (and other fake teachers):

 

On 9/13/2020 at 11:04 AM, freeform said:

Yes - both.

 

Chia says ejaculation only. (The truth would be inconvenient for book sales)

 

The most damaging thing though is this pushing of sexualised Qi up to the head and heart. This creates a deviation called Poison Fire.

The damage starts from the ‘heat’ being pushed up to the heart and head (they need to be cooled - not heated for balance). Over time this causes mental issues - like over the top emotional reactivity or paranoia.

One of Chia’s top teachers was arrested after breaking into his own car at a police impound lot, retrieving a samurai sword and then going to a strip club to threaten a bouncer that had stopped him touching the strippers.

 

The full name of the deviation is something like ‘Poison Fire Taints the Heart’... this is when Qi that has been charged with lust from the ‘base’ water of the body, is pushed up and then taints the purity of the heart.

This is followed by a constant amping up of sexual deviancy... the feelings of love and joy become tainted by lust - so now one can only get pleasure from life through acting out of lusty desires.

 

This basically means an obsession with sex overtakes ones life. Very often this idea of lust tainting something pure is acted out through various deviant behaviours. Think ‘spiritual’ sex cults, dominating people, abusing minors etc.

 

This is quite a common and known issue in Asia. It’s happened obviously with Chia’s material - but there have been many others who developed ‘systems’ that can get them laid.

There are even some pretty old texts with similar methods that are known among the internal arts community to be early deviant paths - or even written for titillation rather than actual practice. Modern teachers take this stuff and show it as evidence that their ‘spiritual bj practice’ is most definitely legit...

 

Then there’s Chia’s ‘Million Dollar Point’ - basically pressing hard on the tubes at the perineum that would normally lead sperm out - but by pressing and shutting this tube, it leads the sperm into the bladder at the moment of ejaculation.

 

A few years of daily use of this point can irreversibly damage ones piping. After some time, sperm just starts to naturally enter the bladder - whether one is pressing the point or even engaging in sexual activity...

 

[freeform]

2 hours ago, Master Logray said:

I have browsed through books of Mantak Chia.  It doesn't seem bad to me.  In fact some of the materials are good.  But you need be know something before spotting them.   However it would not be prudent to only follow the books to practise.  There are too many intricacies.   By the way what is so notorious about him?

His has somehow managed to damage both newcomers to the arts as well as serious long term practitioners in his school.

 

One of the ‘master’ level teachers in his organisation was in the news for breaking into a police impound lot to steal a samurai sword which he used to threaten a bouncer at a strip club he was thrown out of (because he got ‘handsy’ with the dancers). 
 

This forum is frequently visited by people who have damaged themselves with Chia’s work. From permanently damaging the structure of the ‘piping’ of their sexual organs (urethra, vas deference, seminal vesicles etc) - where they constantly leak sperm into their bladder, create incontinence or deep stagnation that takes years of work to undo.

 

Some have developed mental problems - everything from paranoia to full on psychosis and mental delusions as well as sexual deviancy…

 

He has also managed to damage what Daoism means to many people. It went from a deeply respected ancient tradition of spiritual transformation to masturbation techniques, hanging weights off balls and trying to steal essence from virgins and having multiple orgasms while not ejaculating.

 

He also completely, word for word, plagiarised other people’s books and sold them as his own.

 

While all the detail in his books might seem appealing and in-depth, he has clearly completely misunderstood the methods and principles of internal practice. From the very basics he got almost everything wrong.

 

Much of what we have in the west now is a derivative of his work… Damaging the tradition for several generations of seekers.

 

In one of his books he mentions that the masters in China were angry that he revealed all these secrets. I think they were probably angry that he completely butchered the tradition, taught methods that are dangerous and ‘sexed up’ the whole thing to make money.

[freeform]

1 hour ago, virtue said:

Quoting Freeform on Mantak Chia teachings

 I knew I talked about it before!

 

I know it’s not good to comment on people’s work - but I don’t care. Stay well away from Chia and derivatives of his work. It’s a waste of time and effort at best

[Cleansox]

15 hours ago, Master Logray said:

 

I have browsed through books of Mantak Chia.  It doesn't seem bad to me.  In fact some of the materials are good.  But you need be know something before spotting them.  

There are many methods leading to Nei Dan, and any practitioner tend to have the fault of using ones own practice as a standard when comparing, and so do I. 

 

Looking at the fusion practices:

 

Is it a good idea to allow the five to become three to become one? 

Yes! 

 

Would I do that by mentally create bagwas and mentally suck energy to them from the Organs? 

No. 

 

Is it a good idea to work on the Dai Mai? 

Yes! 

 

Would I do that as described by Chia? 

No. 

 

Is it a good idea to work with the energies of the eight trigrams? 

Yes! 

 

Would I circulate them in my MCO at the speed of light by speed chanting the names of the trigrams? 

No. 

 

Would I create an energetic body above my head and try to transfer my consciousness to it? 

No. 

 

[Master Logray]

Wow, Mantak Chia seems to be a hot person, when even Freeform reappears.  Is Mantak the most influential or having the most students in the West?   I find it strange that he operates from Paris, while Damo Mitchell from Bali.  No famous one in the US?

[Capeador1]

Good morning, thank you very much everyone for your answers and guidance, I had not responded because I did not have access to the Internet, Virtue, the symptoms have improved, they have not disappeared, but certainly if they have improved, I have been doing a breathing exercise known as Win Hoff, and until the discomfort disappears completely I feel that I should not continue meditating as I had been doing

[senseless virtue]

39 minutes ago, Capeador1 said:

symptoms have improved, they have not disappeared, but certainly if they have improved, I have been doing a breathing exercise known as Win Hoff

 

Nice that you have improved.

 

Wim Hoff method is a very active breath control exercise. In my humble opinion, you would had been better off not doing it or anything like that. Energy, breathing, and mind easily influence each other. How could you attain proper calmness if you kept doing all types of stimulating activity?

 

I have given what advice I can and wish you good future pursuits. It's your choice what you want to learn and practice.

Edited July 6, 2021 by virtue
Typo

[Capeador1]

Virtu

5 minutes ago, virtue said:

 

Nice that you have improved.

 

Wim Hoff method is a very active breath control exercise. In my humble opinion, you would had been better off not doing it or anything like that. Energy, breathing, and mind easily influence each other. How could you attain proper calmness if you kept doing all types of stimulating activity?

 

I have given what advice I can and wish you food future pursuits. It's your choice what you want to learn and practice.

Ok I understand Virtue, I had not made that association, I tend to think that if there is no mental work, there is not much energy work, since I always get used to the subject of visualizations or active meditations, but I see that I do not know a lot about this area

[Capeador1]

Sudhamma, to answer you about your perceptions, I think it could be a lot of energy / qi in the head since in the mantak chia book the healing light of the tao awakens, he indicates that you must accumulate energy in 4 points of the head, when in the diagrams that I have seen are only 3, the frown, the crown and the jade pillow. This I leave as evidence to any newbie like me, who finds this post, I have been investigating for days, on the Internet, and come to the conclusion that the first method to open the MCO of the book awakens the healing light of tao, it is wrong written or has an error in the execution steps, do not try it, I have 10 days with general discomfort in the head, 7 intense days, and the last 3 have improved these discomforts a lot, I hope in a few days to return to normal.

[Capeador1]

Thank you all very much for taking the time to read and respond to me. Virtue thank you very much for following up on my case. Greetings and blessings.

[EFreethought]

On 7/5/2021 at 5:40 PM, freeform said:

 I knew I talked about it before!

 

I know it’s not good to comment on people’s work - but I don’t care. Stay well away from Chia and derivatives of his work. It’s a waste of time and effort at best

 

What are some "derivatives" of Chia's work? Are there any instructors who were taught by him who are well-known?

[senseless virtue]

4 minutes ago, EFreethought said:

Are there any instructors who were taught by him who are well-known?

 

This site is an offshoot from Michael Winn's discussion forum or something like that. Mr. Winn was the most marketed US instructor of Chia's teachings in the past.

[Desmonddf]

On 30/06/2021 at 5:18 PM, Capeador1 said:

Hello everyone, a week ago I began to perform the meditation of the microcosmic orbit of the mantak chía book awakens the healing light of the tao, the first method to open the microcosmic orbit, it says that you have to condense energy in each point of the 2 channels of the orbit, but in the description of the meditation they mention a point of the head that does not exist in the governor channel, between the crown and the jade pillow, it also speaks of accumulating energy in the palate, but there is also no point of energy There according to the diagram of the microcosmic orbit, after doing the meditation as it appears in the book I have been for several continuous days with pressure, pain and tingling all over my head, I put my tongue on the palate before the teeth while doing the meditation and I sat down with my feet on the ground but it didn't help either, please I need help, does the meditation have mistakes?

 

Press and hold the GV24 accupoint for 30 seconds, then release. The pain on your head should subside. Then, to release the energy accumulated on the rest of the meridian, practice light exercise while slowly and deeply massaging the SP-21 accupoint for 2 minutes.

 

And yes, Mantak Chia's meditations have lot of mistakes in them. Mr. Plastic Surgery probably can't even feel Qi, what more manipulate energy with his Will.

 

For starters, you should never focus on accumulating energy on an accupoint, except if it is the CV-6 accupoint or special kinds of energy (there are many types of Qi on one's body) on some other special accupoints. Energy accumulation has a name - a blockage. Energy must ALWAYS flow.

 

What he probably meant was to increase energy on a certain accupoint, then move it upwards towards the other and so on, until you "drink" it as a nectar (actually, make it go through your tongue to the occult GV Meridian under the CV Meridian, not to the CV Meridian itself... anyhow, can't expect much of an author that pretends to be versed on ancient text but can't mention a single sage's teachings right).

 

Very dangerous practice without previous preparation, as you'll be draining your GV meridian of the post-natal Jing in it, which will create a state of weakness which might persist for days, if not months.

 

For those who are curious, from the Occult GV Meridian it goes back into your system, tem to the CV meridian, then to the Occult CV meridian under the GV meridian, then it becomes concentraded enough to be of use in nei dan.

 

Again, dangerous and can also create massive internal blockages which no modern TCM practioneer will be able to help you with - as the occult vessels are barely mentioned in specialized literature (only those who dig for knowledge of internal meridians will even know they exist), and no appropriate technique is given to deal with them.

[Sudhamma]

Thank you, Capeador 1 for your confirmation. MCO is actually simple to understand, yet complicated and complex in practice and should be approached with caution. The three videos by Damo Mitchell posted by virtue, laid down the do's and don'ts in Daoist abdominal breathing method. Damo Mitchell has also an introductory video (on Youtube) on Micro-cosmic Orbit to dispel the ignorance (and fear) surrounding the subject. Of course, you could join his MCO class ( I am not his marketing agent, just in case...) if his introductory video rekindled your interest in the subject. Thanks to your question, I now realized that there were different "variants" of MCO practice. Matak Chia's MCO is most complex (with the Tao light and all that cosmos-planetary stuff), some will benefit from his instructions, and of course, some don't and some, unfortunately, 'injured' from the practice. Some other qigong systems could likewise cause damage to mental health or the nervous system if the instructions and practice are incorrect. Just like, why a particular qigong system was proven effective by some while others found it ineffective. There are different approaches in Qigong which is a collection of various cultivation systems, each with its own purpose and objectives, and we shouldn't be judgemental and condemn any system because it differs from one's preferred practice or the teachings are incomprehensible. For example, you are now practicing Win Hoff breathing system, and if you go through the Damo Mitchell videos (posted by virtue) you will find that you are warned not to hold your breath and should sink your breath and 'cheese'. As said, we should not be judgemental as both systems are correct in their respective context. Incidentally, never consult a western doctor on any qi-problem, you will raise a laugh but a TCM physician whose business is to understand qi, and the meridians (perhaps not mco). As commonly said, little knowledge is dangerous, and so is ignorance. Happy practice.

[freeform]

On 07/07/2021 at 7:49 AM, Sudhamma said:

MCO is actually simple to understand, yet complicated and complex in practice and should be approached with caution.

Yeah it’s really not the practice to be starting with.

 

Most Daoist systems (that eventually use the MCO) start by activating, then building and then filling the Dantien - this in itself is a long term process that takes a number of years (filling takes much longer). 
 

Without an activated Dantien, there is little Qi in the system. Without a ‘built’ Dantien, your Qi does not anchor low in the body. Without an anchor, your Qi will raise to your heart and head.

 

On 07/07/2021 at 7:49 AM, Sudhamma said:

There are different approaches in Qigong which is a collection of various cultivation systems, each with its own purpose and objectives, and we shouldn't be judgemental and condemn any system because it differs from one's preferred practice or the teachings are incomprehensible.

The problem with this view - where everything is ‘correct’ in its own way is that it’s a wrong view.
 

Some things are 100% wrong. There are many cultivation systems that are wrong because they’ve been made up by someone with no mastery or expertise.

 

On 07/07/2021 at 7:49 AM, Sudhamma said:

Matak Chia's MCO is most complex (with the Tao light and all that cosmos-planetary stuff), some will benefit from his instructions, and of course, some don't and some, unfortunately, 'injured' from the practice.

Some people experienced ‘benefits’ from lobotomies.

[freeform]

On 07/07/2021 at 12:36 AM, EFreethought said:

 

What are some "derivatives" of Chia's work? Are there any instructors who were taught by him who are well-known?

Yup Michael Winn is a major one. (He at least seems to tone down the more damaging stuff from Chia.)

 

All the Healing Tao stuff that’s spread around the world is based on Chia.

 

There are many other teachers that took Healing Tao stuff and made it their own thing.

 

A lot of modern ‘Daoist’ practices that tend to focus heavily on sexual practices, retention etc are derivatives of Chia’s stuff.
 

Make money, be the centre of attention, get full control and have sex with your students - it’s a winning combination for a narcissistic personality.

[Sudhamma]

@freeformYou are right. MCO should not be the starting point for a beginner but as you say, eventually. It took me about 6 -7 years before the eventual happened and even then, progressively from simple micro to macro (not that Matak Chia's cosmo-macro) orbits, from simple to more complicated flow (not that 'figure 8' of Matak Chia's), from contraction to my current occupation, expansion. When I first started with MCO, I was too eager to make the orbit happen and after a fortnight or so, I had a similar experience like Capeador 1. My head was heavy, with constant headaches for most of the day, and my hands were generally weak. That lasted not too long, maybe 3 days as I stopped the MCO the next day and 'sink' my qi down to DT. During those 3 days, I did some acupressure on GV20, Baihui, GV23 Shangxing,  EM2 Yintang, and IC4 Hegu. I had only limited success with acupressure (unless with needles!). Since then I was careful with the practice. As to the myriads of qigong systems from structured to spontaneous, from dynamic to static across the 4 main categories, I don't have expert knowledge of all 4 categories to judge any system (compounded by varied breathing and qi-building methods) whether it is good or injurious, and can only take a stand of "innocent until proven guilty", Matak Chia's system notwithstanding. When I first joined this forum some 6 years ago, I did read negative comments and warnings about Matak Chia's system but didn't motivate me to read up on his teachings, until now just to find out who the person is and what crab is he dishing out that hurt so many people. Matak Chia, a Thai of Chinese descent as he claimed was taught the Quanzhen qigong. Quanzhen is the name of a reputable Daoist sect, like Longmen, another Daoist sect of Mt. Wudang is a religious-martial arts Daoist temple. However, I am no expert on the Quanzhen system to further comment on Matak Chia's MCO system except that I find it complicated with his flow patterns, 9 cauldrons, and the energy relationship with the planets and cosmos (emphasizing the Daoist SanChai, Trinity of Heaven-Earth-Man). That itself gave me a headache! And spared me from having migraines from his exposition on sexual qigong (changing jing to qi). SanChai, and Jing-Qi-Shen are typical Daoist energy cultivation concepts. Anyway, to cut to the chase, say what you like, I won't judge unless it is a system that I know intimately and will give every supposedly genuine (established) Qigong system, the benefit of the doubt, and one should not forget the role of the other unknown factor, the student, the affected party in the matter. Caveat Emptor!