Cutting Through Neurotic Self Reflection

[Bindi]

51 minutes ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

Gaining insight, cultivating inner strength and gentleness, becoming altruistic, letting go of personal desires and demands (whether willingly or unwillingly) and cultivating and applying patience and forbearance. While I went through my years of adversity I endured more out of fear and hope than virtue... But in retrospect I feel like it was intensive paramita practice. For that I am grateful. And I don't mean to present myself as some sort of transformed saint... But I like to express myself sincerely after years of reticence and yearning.

So a lot of positive attainments, but you’re unhappy with your continuing egoic ideation of these attainments? 

[TranquilTurmoil]

8 minutes ago, Bindi said:

So a lot of positive attainments, but you’re unhappy with your continuing egoic ideation of these attainments? 

I prefer the word progress rather than attainments. I'm not so  unhappy with my egoic ideations as much as I recognize them as inferior and an obstacle to accelerating progress. But I guess every hindrance and obstacle is an opportunity. 

 

I'm ashamed of my conceit! Jk lol but I think its something that ought to be purged as opposed to accepted. And I'm a big believer in accepting 99% of afflictions. I think pride is the 1% that ought to be branded and discarded

Edited July 5, 2021 by TranquilTurmoil
Grammar

[Bindi]

22 minutes ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

I prefer the word progress rather than attainments. I'm not so  unhappy with my egoic ideations as much as I recognize them as inferior and an obstacle to accelerating progress. But I guess every hindrance and obstacle is an opportunity. 

 

I'm ashamed of my conceit! Jk lol but I think its something that ought to be purged as opposed to accepted. And I'm a big believer in accepting 99% of afflictions. I think pride is the 1% that ought to be branded and discarded

Well I think you’re right about it being a hindrance or obstacle, how to go about discarding it is probably quite a complex endeavour if you want to do it properly. Reading about the Vijnanamaya Kosha (Intellect/Intuition sheath) relates directly to ego, that might give you somewhere to start. 

[TranquilTurmoil]

8 minutes ago, Bindi said:

Well I think you’re right about it being a hindrance or obstacle, how to go about discarding it is probably quite a complex endeavour if you want to do it properly. Reading about the Vijnanamaya Kosha (Intellect/Intuition sheath) relates directly to ego, that might give you somewhere to start. 

Not familiar with that. Want to elaborate or point me to what you are talking about? I’m Assuming this is either yogic terminology of mind or abidhamma?

[TranquilTurmoil]

Btw I feel like I gradually weaken ego/pride/conceit just through mindful cultivation… but I’m always (a bit too) eager for expedient means

[Bindi]

7 minutes ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

Not familiar with that. Want to elaborate or point me to what you are talking about? I’m Assuming this is either yogic terminology of mind or abidhamma?

I believe it’s from Vedanta, just look up the 5 sheaths/Koshas from some reputable sites. It’s one way of looking at things, there must be others, but those Indians know a bit I reckon  

[TranquilTurmoil]

I was always intrigued by Vedanta but have never known where to start or if it was even kosher to mix paths more than I already do. I can’t figure out all this unity/multiplicity, dual/non-dual , being/non-being stuff on my own. The I Ching is resolutely Mum on big metaphysical questions for the duration of my path so far which would be fine except the wise folks on TDB and many Buddhist masters advise not mixing incompatible energies/theologies. The perennial philosophers/universalists who recommend “following your heart” while are good ppl who may have had awakening experiences never struck me as “fully enlightened beings”. 
 

Sry Yi Jing I’m going to consult Zhuangzi on this one: 

‘Gap Tooth asked Horizon Imperial, “Do you understand how it is that all things are one and the same?”

”How could I understand that?” Replied HI

”Do you understand what you cannot understand?”

”How could I understand that?”

”So then is there no understanding things?”

“And how could I understand that?” Replied HI. “But still, there may be something I can tell you. How do I know that what I say I know is not unknowable? And how do I know that what I say I cannot know is not knowable?”’

 

Well said Horizon Imperial/ZZ… well said indeed

[TranquilTurmoil]

Back to Vedanta... A higher self always made more sense to me than no self alone.... This leads me to favor believing in atman/Buddha=nature rather than anatta. I always wondered if these teachings coexist or if we live in a universe without a sole universal truth. However I don't think I have any insight into the Void/shunyata/Brahman so i can only speculate. I also seem to favor the notion that Atman is no other than Brahman AND other than Brahman other than the strictly non dual "Atman is no other than Brahman" teaching. This is solely informed by my dynamic with I Ching and theology. I firmly don't believe when consulting the oracle and/or praying to my Higher Power that I'm exclusively or merely reaching my higher self.... There is a definite element of externality.

 

Now I have to try to not ruminate on these ideas. Bums please show me the way to the True humility of No Mind/ego dissolution. It makes me feel whole talking to you wise fools but it reifies me in a way I have long tried to avoid.

Edited July 5, 2021 by TranquilTurmoil

[escott]

On 7/4/2021 at 3:36 PM, TranquilTurmoil said:

I definitely appreciate the feedback! I would need to heal and strengthen my physical body before I could take up any form of standing meditation just so you know. I used to do hatha yoga when I was in good physical shape but then it aggravated my neck. However I can do seared meditation in a chair still and visualization can be very helpful.
i am curious though if tai chi or qigong would be a good foundation for me to add. FYI my bones severely deteriorated over the last 7 years and I am recovering my health now in ways that have been both rapid and gradual. Thanks for sharing friend.

Much of my anger and depression at the time was rooted in constant pain that I felt from a back injury that had happened more than 10 years prior to beginning my Qigong practice. I started out only doing 5 minutes of ZZ just as master Lam prescribes. Watch 'Stand Still and Be Fit' on YouTube. That's how I started. I'm an engineer, I like to understand everything, but in this case, "Just Do It", it works.

[Bindi]

21 hours ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

Back to Vedanta... A higher self always made more sense to me than no self alone.... This leads me to favor believing in atman/Buddha=nature rather than anatta.
 

 

Same here

 

21 hours ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

I always wondered if these teachings coexist or if we live in a universe without a sole universal truth.

 

I do personally believe there is a fundamental truth that is discoverable.

 

21 hours ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

However I don't think I have any insight into the Void/shunyata/Brahman so i can only speculate.

 

Same, so I wouldn’t normally speculate, my path either leads to these sort of outcomes or not, I will wait and see. 

 

21 hours ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

I also seem to favor the notion that Atman is no other than Brahman AND other than Brahman other than the strictly non dual "Atman is no other than Brahman" teaching. This is solely informed by my dynamic with I Ching and theology. I firmly don't believe when consulting the oracle and/or praying to my Higher Power that I'm exclusively or merely reaching my higher self.... There is a definite element of externality.

 

I’m more inclined to the notion that there is only a higher self, but I don’t completely discount the possibility of there being an external power. 

 

21 hours ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

 

Now I have to try to not ruminate on these ideas. Bums please show me the way to the True humility of No Mind/ego dissolution. It makes me feel whole talking to you wise fools but it reifies me in a way I have long tried to avoid.

I don’t really know what you mean by it reifies you. For me certain thoughts are worth dwelling on, but mainly the ones that come from my subconscious guidance.

 

The main point I was trying to make with the Vijnanamaya Kosha perspective was to say that you are not your intellect, you are deeper or subtler or more eternal than that, which leads to the thought why would you be proud of a layer that is not intrinsically you?  It was just an idea I had, if you prefer a daoist approach hopefully someone else might suggest a specifically daoist method. 

[TranquilTurmoil]

22 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

Same here

 

 

I do personally believe there is a fundamental truth that is discoverable.

 

 

Same, so I wouldn’t normally speculate, my path either leads to these sort of outcomes or not, I will wait and see. 

 

 

I’m more inclined to the notion that there is only a higher self, but I don’t completely discount the possibility of there being an external power. 

 

I don’t really know what you mean by it reifies you. For me certain thoughts are worth dwelling on, but mainly the ones that come from my subconscious guidance.

 

The main point I was trying to make with the Vijnanamaya Kosha perspective was to say that you are not your intellect, you are deeper or subtler or more eternal than that, which leads to the thought why would you be proud of a layer that is not intrinsically you?  It was just an idea I had, if you prefer a daoist approach hopefully someone else might suggest a specifically daoist method. 

Unpacking this: it is very helpful to direct the mind with wise intention, and reflection. The distinction I’m making is being led by my higher nature  in reflecting, leading, guiding, versus when the ego grasps at either the fruits of practice or the remnants (big or small) of seeking validation and affirmation to deal with insecurities and lack of recognition of intrinsic worth from past karma/accumulated emotional/psychological baggage.

 

Recognizing we are not our ego, the ego still nonetheless remains and craftily latches on to this recognition. In other words ego identifies and claims credit for it’s own illusory nature being realized by our subtler purer awareness.

 

As Creation can tell you from hearing me out and giving me feedback,  I’m actually averse at this moment to seemingly any “method” that willfully cuts through other than spontaneous dialectical investigation… or whatever my heart/mind leads to me to from moment to moment.

 

I don’t want to be rigid in my commitment to not using a method it just doesn’t appear to me to bear the greatest fruit at this precise moment in my development.

 

Lastly, I certainly am a “true believer” in the notion and reality of fundamental truth(s). I just can’t wrap my head around the notion of One Reality when there are seemingly several related but maybe distinct higher or even absolute truths. Brahman isn’t shunyata from what I gather with the Tao somewhere similar Between them. I found a profound perspective on this on tricycle by a local Roshi rather serendipitously yesterday if you are interested in his scholarly and ecumenical Buddhist-informed perspective on the unity of Multiplicity and unity, how it is helpful to sometimes view the Buddha (or I assume whichever exalted teacher/lineage founder you prefer I suppose) as both human and beyond human. 🥳🙏🏼

Edited July 6, 2021 by TranquilTurmoil

[TranquilTurmoil]

After going through some more reading I think what would benefit me most at the moment is the cultivation of true or unconditional joy. I always felt like I went through the cultivation of joy, love, compassion, and equanimity in a reverse or discombobulated order which had unique benefits as well as consequences. One consequence being while I’m lighthearted and detached I carry my pain with me 24/7. I realize part of this is me clinging to past and future and rejecting letting go. It’s a process. I think my mind is also afraid of plunging into non-thinking as I often feel a compulsion to replay thought in my mind rather than abide in the moment, at least when I’m in solitude. 
 

im grateful to be able to use this thread/forum as a personal practice diary. 

[TranquilTurmoil]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

 

I’m more inclined to the notion that there is only a higher self, but I don’t completely discount the possibility of there being an external power. 

 

Side note:  While I know metaphysical discussion can be a pitfall, in response I find it logically unpalatable that there is no distinction/separation btwn atman/Brahman , self/source. I say this because upon realization one does not become omnipresent or omnicisient (I think/infer?) And If Maya/samsara was really exclusively nirvana/higher self... It begs the mystery how paradise transformed and divided. So my current map is a Not Two approach rather than All is One.

 

But I'm not thoroughly versed in the progressive stages of awakening or have a complete understanding of the explanations of every tradition.... As always I could have blind spots and be missing something

Edited July 6, 2021 by TranquilTurmoil
To add on

[manitou]

On 7/4/2021 at 5:55 PM, TranquilTurmoil said:

Gaining insight, cultivating inner strength and gentleness, becoming altruistic, letting go of personal desires and demands (whether willingly or unwillingly) and cultivating and applying patience and forbearance. While I went through my years of adversity I endured more out of fear and hope than virtue... But in retrospect I feel like it was intensive paramita practice. For that I am grateful. And I don't mean to present myself as some sort of transformed saint... But I like to express myself sincerely after years of reticence and yearning.

 

I think the most comprehensive way to accomplish what you want, is to start with where you are at this moment.  The first thing that comes along that ruffles your feathers - rubs up against your ego - this is the very thing that will guarantee results.  Look at yourself in those moments.  Understand what part of your ego is being tweaked.  Look at why it's being tweaked.  Pay attention to any childhood memory that comes to mind at that moment.  It'll probably be one that you flash on over and over as things disturb you.  Understand exactly what part you are playing in any disagreement.  Once you see your part in it, apologize if it is required.

 

Through this procedure we become aware of our personality foibles.  The things other people can see, but we can't because they are part of us.  To use 'life' as a mirror of our inner self is to triangulate our current manifestations.  We have manifested exactly what we are programmed to manifest.  But with awareness, we can change that.  Life gets easier and easier.

[TranquilTurmoil]

3 minutes ago, manitou said:

 

I think the most comprehensive way to accomplish what you want, is to start with where you are at this moment.  The first thing that comes along that ruffles your feathers - rubs up against your ego - this is the very thing that will guarantee results.  Look at yourself in those moments.  Understand what part of your ego is being tweaked.  Look at why it's being tweaked.  Pay attention to any childhood memory that comes to mind at that moment.  It'll probably be one that you flash on over and over as things disturb you.  Understand exactly what part you are playing in any disagreement.  Once you see your part in it, apologize if it is required.

 

Through this procedure we become aware of our personality foibles.  The things other people can see, but we can't because they are part of us.  To use 'life' as a mirror of our inner self is to triangulate our current manifestations.  We have manifested exactly what we are programmed to manifest.  But with awareness, we can change that.  Life gets easier and easier.

My practice besides devotion and discernment revolved around this... Working with whatever comes up. RAIN is an acronym I learned in the beginning to work with afflictions and triggers. Recognize, accept, investigate, non=identify. Gradually, subtly, and profoundly this "forges you in the fire" so to say and transforms you. Especially when you are coping with  difficult, or even hostile/oppressive conditions

[manitou]

7 hours ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

My practice besides devotion and discernment revolved around this... Working with whatever comes up. RAIN is an acronym I learned in the beginning to work with afflictions and triggers. Recognize, accept, investigate, non=identify. Gradually, subtly, and profoundly this "forges you in the fire" so to say and transforms you. Especially when you are coping with  difficult, or even hostile/oppressive conditions

 

 

Devotion to what?

[TranquilTurmoil]

2 hours ago, manitou said:

 

 

Devotion to what?

Devotion to “The Way” and everything it consists of: cultivation, service, truth, friendship… all the good, virtuous qualities of life.