That imbetween state

[Ian]

So I've been formulating stuff about the ideal state in which to practice.

And I think it's vital, but very hard to talk about.

 

I've heard it described as "half asleep, half awake", "alert but chilled", "as if you can't really be bothered", "presence but no pressure", "being meditated", and doubtless a few others I've forgotten.

 

It seems like the vital elements are

1) Being physically present, rather than away with the fairies, (which would be too yin)

2) Not controlling, directing, supervising from the limited mind (too yang)

 

It seems to me as if 1) requires a certain amount of "not 2)" and 2) requires a certain amount of "not 1)"

 

And thus it seems that achieving this ideal state is in itself a form of alchemy. Enough yang to be present, enough yin to be accepting, and, ideally, not a smidge more of either.

 

And hooking one up to the other until they get used to balancing without it being an effort, and gradually there being less and less of both, until ...

 

But it seems we kind of have to talk round it. Because if I describe an ideal state, then I start looking for it, which makes me by definition with the fairies rather than with what is. And if I describe a method then I'm directing and supervisng.

 

But I need to have an approach, at least to start with, otherwise I just sit and think about sex or misery.

It seems to me to be about finding the least intrusive ways to interrupt what happens if I sit/stand and endeavour to do nothing.

 

And it seems to be a continuum, in that there are definitely things I can stop doing, the stopping of which produces a closer approximation to this state. But in another sense the state is also an absolute, since there have been times when I was incontrovertibly there.

 

Anyone got any formulations/approaches they find not too counterproductive?

[hagar]

So I've been formulating stuff about the ideal state in which to practice.

And I think it's vital, but very hard to talk about.

 

I've heard it described as "half asleep, half awake", "alert but chilled", "as if you can't really be bothered", "presence but no pressure", "being meditated", and doubtless a few others I've forgotten.

 

It seems like the vital elements are

1) Being physically present, rather than away with the fairies, (which would be too yin)

2) Not controlling, directing, supervising from the limited mind (too yang)

 

It seems to me as if 1) requires a certain amount of "not 2)" and 2) requires a certain amount of "not 1)"

 

And thus it seems that achieving this ideal state is in itself a form of alchemy. Enough yang to be present, enough yin to be accepting, and, ideally, not a smidge more of either.

 

And hooking one up to the other until they get used to balancing without it being an effort, and gradually there being less and less of both, until ...

 

But it seems we kind of have to talk round it. Because if I describe an ideal state, then I start looking for it, which makes me by definition with the fairies rather than with what is. And if I describe a method then I'm directing and supervisng.

 

But I need to have an approach, at least to start with, otherwise I just sit and think about sex or misery.

It seems to me to be about finding the least intrusive ways to interrupt what happens if I sit/stand and endeavour to do nothing.

 

And it seems to be a continuum, in that there are definitely things I can stop doing, the stopping of which produces a closer approximation to this state. But in another sense the state is also an absolute, since there have been times when I was incontrovertibly there.

 

Anyone got any formulations/approaches they find not too counterproductive?

 

I can only quote my master who said that the best way to go about it is to "give in, but don't let go"

 

I always see myself as having to "log on" to the cosmic information, meaning to tune in and then stepping back.

It's the "stepping back" that is hard

 

h

[松永道]

 

It seems like the vital elements are

1) Being physically present, rather than away with the fairies, (which would be too yin)

2) Not controlling, directing, supervising from the limited mind (too yang)

 

 

Transform #1 into #2 with practice. Meditation itself is a forced activity. It's a choice of the ego. It also takes long term practice to sit in proper meditative position without force.

 

That said, here's a thought. Doing nothing also means not resisting right? It means accepting everything without craving somethings and disliking others. It doesn't mean the end of thinking necessarily but it does mean the end of attachment to thinking. I think it's very helpful to have an awareness activity to keep your awareness from getting tangled up in your thoughts. Following the breath is good. Watching and feeling the natural rhythm. Scanning and feeling the body is also great. Just go through, inch by inch, staying in one spot long enough to be aware of how it feels. This isn't visualization mind you. You're not trying to see it. You're just sweeping through with your awareness. Both of these are tasks (#1) that will transform into non-acting awareness (#2) over time. Essentially both of these methods (and they can be combined of course) cause you to begin associating with the observer rather than the ego. The ego can think away, it doesn't matter, as long as the observer is paying attention to the reality of the body. Then the mind's chatter is just like any other background noise. Indeed this method works for even forced meditations, like reverse breathing, at first you need to force it but over time it will become integrated into your natural non-acting framework.

 

Sure the ego will act out in all sorts of ways to try and get you to pay attention to it. Spoiled child. Stop rewarding its misbehavior and you'll eventually reach the tipping point when true consciousness takes back the reigns. Just don't ask me how to do it permanently. I'm still working on that part.

[mwight]

Myself I have found a deep trance state, where I breath 1-3 times per minute, and my physical body becomes numb and almost euphorically relaxed, while focusing on still going deeper, and breathing slower to be the ultimate state to feel the flow of energies. Going even deeper can even lead to spontaneous OBE's, and some wonderful effects.

[doc benway]

My only prerequisite is that I can't be drowsy or too physically tired.

THe other thing is that I try to accept the fact that some days I will feel good about my "efforts" and other days I will be disappointed. Either way they are just feelings or thoughts and don't make any difference.

WHen I used to be very attached to the outcome and the quality of my practice, I got turned off and let it fizzle. When I am able to let go of that attachment, it comes more naturally and is much more pleasant.

[freeform]

The answer to your question - as any decent answer to any decent question always is - is paradoxical.

 

The important distinction that you might find useful is the direction of 'effort' - there is effort to get a result or there is effort to find out what's there. I call the second type 'discovery'.

 

So you can direct your energy downwards 'to connect to the earth' or you direct your energy downwards to discover what happens... Another word for 'discovery' is 'play'.

 

Playing and discovering is this in-between state - so is curiosity... it's all 'directing to discover what's there' rather than 'directing to get a specific result'.

 

Feelings-wise it's very close to 'fun' - not the over-excited hyperactive thing that we sometimes call 'fun' - but that light-hearted, curious fun that we sometimes had as children.

 

What you call 'away with the fairies' sounds pretty yang to me - creating internal, mental landscapes is a yang activity - feeling that child-like sense of wonder, discovery, being curious and playful is both yin and yang, in just the right ratio.

 

There is a technique you might try out (or you may have already tried it from what I remember) of using your peripheral vision - you expand your visual field where you lose your 'focus on something specific' and start receiving whatever is there already - might also notice that there is that curious feeling as you do it - what we tend to do when we are peripheral and curious is that something catches our attention and we contract our expanded focus onto that specific thing - and suddenly we lose the curiosity. So the trick is to keep that curiosity humming without ever satisfying it!

 

I've actually adapted the peripheral vision thing and added to it a little. Ian - you mentioned that one of your past teachers used to teach this with auditory sensing.

Basically once you've expanded your focus to the periphery and settled that, start to notice that not only your eyes can see, but so can your skin!

So you expand your focus to include what your skin sees! Then notice that actually every cell in your body 'sees' - expand your focus to include that too. (and btw - that seat you're sitting on is you - so you could maybe expand your awareness to what it sees too? )

 

You can do the above with each of the senses - for me what develops is this kind of 'embodied sense of profound wonder' - often punctured by long moments of no-thought - in a way it's a bit like that sense of comfort that we get from the 'away with the fairies' thing but we're observing 'what is' instead of the fairies...

[Ian]

Playing and discovering is this in-between state - so is curiosity... it's all 'directing to discover what's there' rather than 'directing to get a specific result'.

Yes! Only goal of meditation to discover one's true nature and all that.

 

And "Directing to discover" is a yang-yin blend if ever I heard one.

 

So the trick is to keep that curiosity humming without ever satisfying it!

Yes again. Stay with the whole picture, as it were. And you're right - easiest way is to enjoy, find fascinating, said picture. I playing at the moment with the fact that sensation changes every instant. How could one possibly look away?

 

Then notice that actually every cell in your body 'sees' - expand your focus to include that too.

Funnily enough, I had an experience with Sifu Yap once, where he was saying something along the lines of "eye cells are just cells" and a whole bunch of my arm cells just woke up all at once in a "yeah, we're just as good" kinda moment. And yes, whatever you see in the internal landscape, it sure ain't eyes doing it!

 

But the sneaky bit there is "notice". It's more of a challenge for me, thus far. Am incredibly short-sighted and have lots of vision issues.

[freeform]

FF: "Then notice that actually every cell in your body 'sees' - expand your focus to include that too."

 

IAN: "But the sneaky bit there is "notice". It's more of a challenge for me, thus far. Am incredibly short-sighted and have lots of vision issues."

 

Anything that can have light bounce off it can 'see'... We think of seeing as the function of the 'eyes' - but it could be fun to discover what it's like when we think of seeing as the function of 'light'. For me, the body 'sees' very differently to how the eyes do... I would say the body 'senses light' rather than 'sees'.

 

There was some Russian research into cells creating and receiving photons (light) - I know, it's very un-thorough of me to not give any kind of decent reference, but I remember reading it somewhere...

 

The point is that every cell (whether it's proven by science or not) can sense light in its own kind of way - for me the liver 'sees' in a very different way from how the bones do.

 

So when I say 'notice' this, what I mean is invite your awareness to expand to include what's happening there already.

[Ian]

Anything that can have light bounce off it can 'see'... We think of seeing as the function of the 'eyes' - but it could be fun to discover what it's like when we think of seeing as the function of 'light'. For me, the body 'sees' very differently to how the eyes do... I would say the body 'senses light' rather than 'sees'.

 

There was some Russian research into cells creating and receiving photons (light) - I know, it's very un-thorough of me to not give any kind of decent reference, but I remember reading it somewhere...

 

The point is that every cell (whether it's proven by science or not) can sense light in its own kind of way - for me the liver 'sees' in a very different way from how the bones do.

 

So when I say 'notice' this, what I mean is invite your awareness to expand to include what's happening there already.

 

Thank you, useful clarification.

 

And I know it's not exactly science, but this was covered, like so many other things, in Psychic Discoveries: The Iron Curtain Lifted which I think is an update of "Psychic discoveries behind the Iron Curtain."

 

There was a whole bit about blind people being trained to distinguish colour, and eventually text, with their fingertips.

[forestofsouls]

I would suppose the ideal state would depend on your path. If your path is magical, i.e. you're trying to create or induce a certain result, then perhaps there is an ideal state. If you're path is mystical, i.e. you're trying to discover the true nature of reality, then any state is the ideal state, because any state is open to investigation.

 

Just now, I was trying a long sit with restful states. However, over time, I became very agitated. This was a problem since I was trying to sit with restful states. When I realized that it was fine to be agitated, there was no problem. I was able to clearly see agitation, its nature, location, attendant mental images and sounds, and the fact that it is impermanent and unsatisfactory. Of course, then I was able to again sit with restful states!