Studying the I Ching

[TranquilTurmoil]

So I feel like my practice with the Oracle has evolved to the point where I fully trust it and can interpret its guidance. However, as I spent 7 years with the Brian Browne Walker interpretation exclusively (I ve added the Wilhelm translation as an illuminating complement/equal in the last year and it’s done wonders!) I never knew about or bothered with the intricate esoterica of the Yi or Taoist thought. I’m wondering if I’m fine just using it without grasping the fine print? Or if there is great benefit in studying things like nuclear trigrams, and a million other things I don’t know about or understand? I don’t feel inclined at the moment to dive into intellectual analysis unless I can be persuaded that I’m missing something.

 

🙏🏼

[senseless virtue]

3 hours ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

I’m wondering if I’m fine just using it without grasping the fine print?

 

No problem with that.

 

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Or if there is great benefit in studying things like nuclear trigrams, and a million other things I don’t know about or understand?

 

Yes. For example, the Bagua trigrams are a very useful general concept for understanding Chinese philosophy nuances in various uses, but it takes time and exposure to develop the intuition how they might be used and what do they signify in each context.

 

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I don’t feel inclined at the moment to dive into intellectual analysis unless I can be persuaded that I’m missing something.

 

It's good to be able to trust one's own gut instinct. It will make more sense later if you develop the desire to learn the subtle details.

Edited July 10, 2021 by virtue

[TranquilTurmoil]

I’m expecting a similar response to this question as the previous one but here goes:

 

I know next to nil about not just the esoteric concepts of body/bodies and the five elements and dantiens/chakras, but the principles of how Qi/chi works, how to manage Qi flow, and all the related things. I do feel different types of energy in my body at diff times, and generally feel the overall chi of body that I would describe as subtle ethereal essence within or analogous to the physical body. As I alluded to in another thread I had a severe energy eruption (Qi deviation?) 7.5 years ago and a couple minor energy mishaps within that year. I’m not particularly worried about it happening again anymore, but was curious if this is a good Avenue to investigate? Can never be too careful… especially as I have thrown patience and forbearance to the wind in the last month or two.

☯️

[senseless virtue]

1 hour ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

I have thrown patience and forbearance to the wind in the last month or two.

 

What are you wishing to accomplish by this move?

 

I don't know what your long term goals are, but this is my experience: Much of the skill of stillness is dependent on actualizing and perfecting the life or patience and forbearance, both on the meditation cushion and in everyday life. Attempting shortcuts leads to stagnation and misfortune.

[TranquilTurmoil]

1 minute ago, virtue said:

 

What are you wishing to accomplish by this move?

 

I don't know what your long term goals are, but this is my experience: Much of the skill of stillness is dependent on actualizing and perfecting the life or patience and forbearance, both on the meditation cushion and in everyday life. Attempting shortcuts leads to stagnation and misfortune.

I understand how you interpreted that statement, but allow me to explain:

 

I spent 7.5+ years plumbing the depths of patience/forbearance/kshanti paramita largely involuntarily out of a necessity. Now the I Ching has taken the shackles off me, and I have switched my focus from patiently waiting for a time to take action/using waiting itself as practice to: Resolute Discernment and responsive natural, compassionate action. I can’t practice coerced stillness anymore without violating my nature it seems to me. However, I have no intention of taking over, I just follow line 2 of hexagram 16: “Recognizing the seeds, not waiting even a day.” This means acting when it’s time to act, trying to cultivate tranquil/stillnesss/fulfillment when it’s not. But I slept away days for many years on my cultivation path bc I was in agonizing solitude with no real willful practices to throw myself into, or a healthy enough body anymore to sit long hours of meditation with a decent posture.

I recognize forbearance in many ways IS the path… it’s just naturally fallen to the wayside in my path at this time.

hope that clarifies and that I’m on the right track!

 

🙏🏼☯️

[TranquilTurmoil]

PS after craving shortcuts for many years I ve finally come to a resignation/loss of desire for full enlightenment whilst still devoted to pursuing the way wholeheartedly and sincerely. Which I think is actually quite a fast path in it of itself paradoxically!

[Harmen]

My first suggestion would be to burn Browne Walker's book - it has nothing to do with what the real Yijing is about (see here https://youtu.be/eW8fMZq8I7I?t=1117). If you are mainly a text reader and have not yet learned the value of trigrams you might want to watch this video: 2. Trigrams - YouTube. An example of how you can read 'hexagrams' is here 4. Example 1 - YouTube.

 

[stirling]

Remember that oracles are merely mirrors - they don't REALLY tell you anything you don't know. They are really a sort of crutch... an abstraction, in the same way that looking at a rock through a microscope isn't really experiencing the rock in the same way that holding it is.

 

I'm with Virtue - learning to identify your instinctive reading is most important, meaning the answer that arises without thinking about it and comes with an "aha" feeling.

 

What do the more direct mirrors of your external world tell you about your attachments and aversions?

 

On 7/10/2021 at 7:47 AM, virtue said:

Much of the skill of stillness is dependent on actualizing and perfecting the life or patience and forbearance, both on the meditation cushion and in everyday life. Attempting shortcuts leads to stagnation and misfortune.

 

This is really the key. 

Edited July 19, 2021 by stirling

[TranquilTurmoil]

35 minutes ago, stirling said:

Remember that oracles are merely mirrors - they don't REALLY tell you anything you don't know. They are really a sort of crutch... an abstraction, in the same way that looking at a rock through a microscope isn't really experiencing the rock in the same way that holding it is.

 

I'm with Virtue - learning to identify your instinctive reading is most important, meaning the answer that arises without thinking about it and comes with an "aha" feeling.

 

What do the more direct mirrors of your external world tell you about your attachments and aversions?

 

 

This is really the key. 

@stirling I’d be happy to explain how my experience has completely been incongruous with the notion that oracles are merely mirrors. I feel like I kind of have in other threads, but maybe that would be a good topic to discuss either in message, comments or if/when we zoom🙏🏼

[senseless virtue]

33 minutes ago, stirling said:

Remember that oracles are merely mirrors - they don't REALLY tell you anything you don't know.

 

I don't agree with this.

 

The oracle divulges in depth information when it's karmicly optimal, but receiving such knowledge may be limited because of the divination format and one's inability to ask good questions.

[stirling]

I'd love to chat about that.

 

To clarify - you are not separate from the oracle, your car, or a marble. What surrounds you is constantly pointing toward the attachments and aversion that obscure insight... your non-dual nature. When I say mirrors I mean that which is mirroring your obscurations back to you. By definition, the dharmakaya is the "teaching body", one edgeless, seamless, limitless, infinite mirror. 

[stirling]

3 minutes ago, virtue said:

 

I don't agree with this.

 

The oracle divulges in depth information when it's karmicly optimal, but receiving such knowledge may be limited because of the divination format and one's inability to ask good questions.

 

From my perspective it is the obscurations of the asker that limit the quality of the answers. There is really on one Wisdom (prajna) and it is always right here, right now. There isn't really anything hidden, IMHO.

 

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Dogen, said: “What is practice?”
            
The cook: “Everywhere, nothing is hidden.”

 

 

[TranquilTurmoil]

52 minutes ago, Harmen said:

My first suggestion would be to burn Browne Walker's book - it has nothing to do with what the real Yijing is about (see here https://youtu.be/eW8fMZq8I7I?t=1117). If you are mainly a text reader and have not yet learned the value of trigrams you might want to watch this video: 2. Trigrams - YouTube. An example of how you can read 'hexagrams' is here 4. Example 1 - YouTube.

 

Thank you Harmen. So far I have only watched the part of why not to use Interpretations. I largely agree with your perspective, as almost all of the problems I got into in my early years were based on not having a proper understanding of the Yi and “winging it” to disastrous and semi-miraculous effects alike. 
When I started using Wilhelm a year ago, my mind opened, doors opened and everything expanded. However, I do believe the two different texts still contact the “same Oracle”, and the Oracle strongly advised me to bear with the chaos of the Walker interpretation until causes and conditions came together and I could cross the great water with the Wilhelm translation. My intuitive sense is that at this point on my path they both have there value for me, as the Walker interpretation focuses on self-examination and self-correction almost exclusively, and Wilhelm’s translation helps me navigate everyday life. I’m open to being wrong here, though. 🙏🏼

[senseless virtue]

3 minutes ago, stirling said:

From my perspective it is the obscurations of the asker that limit the quality of the answers.

 

Yes, it's karma.

 

The non-dual view is true, but not really instructive from the mundane perspective.

[TranquilTurmoil]

@virtue @stirling to clarify the comment about abandoning patience/forbearance… what I meant is there has been a shift in my practice from consulting the Yi once a day in the morning, not asking a specific question, just consulting for general guidance and living a life of contemplative waiting in a spirit of gritting my teeth and clenching my jaw…. To living life from moment to moment adapting to circumstances/change as it arises. I think you would agree that both sounds healthier, and doesn’t really negate forbearance as I alluded to 🙏🏼

[TranquilTurmoil]

12 minutes ago, stirling said:

I'd love to chat about that.

 

To clarify - you are not separate from the oracle, your car, or a marble. What surrounds you is constantly pointing toward the attachments and aversion that obscure insight... your non-dual nature. When I say mirrors I mean that which is mirroring your obscurations back to you. By definition, the dharmakaya is the "teaching body", one edgeless, seamless, limitless, infinite mirror. 

Whether or not I am separate from the Oracle, while it’s primary function is to mirror my obscurations, it also (seemingly from my experience) the power to clearly see/forecast things both knowable and unknowable to the individual, and thus provide guidance towards a harmonized/optimal way of relating to it and approach towards it. It KNOWS when someone will call me beforehand, when a door is on the verge of opening, etc. I can’t emphasize this enough as I was led to do so many things that I never wanted to do and didn’t even seem beneficial… yet in hindsight I see the benefit and how I would have never got to or through these experiences being my own guide or even with any teacher I have met thus far. Will clarify as needed, and of course my experience is not objective truth but I have a decent degree of confidence in my interpretation of my experiences 🙏🏼

[TranquilTurmoil]

1 hour ago, stirling said:

Remember that oracles are merely mirrors - they don't REALLY tell you anything you don't know. They are really a sort of crutch... an abstraction, in the same way that looking at a rock through a microscope isn't really experiencing the rock in the same way that holding it is.

 

I'm with Virtue - learning to identify your instinctive reading is most important, meaning the answer that arises without thinking about it and comes with an "aha" feeling.

 

What do the more direct mirrors of your external world tell you about your attachments and aversions?

 

 

This is really the key. 

I’m coming to appreciate the value of sangha as a teacher in the sense of being a mirror, pointing towards truth, and providing refuge, as well as the Oracle stopping me from following my unwholesome whims/impulses while instilling confidence in me towards pursuing the way wholeheartedly 

Edited July 19, 2021 by TranquilTurmoil

[Harmen]

8 hours ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

the Oracle strongly advised me to bear with the chaos of the Walker interpretation until causes and conditions came together and I could cross the great water with the Wilhelm translation.

Hmmm, how did 'the oracle' advise you to do that? In the end it doesn't really matter which text or method you use - even bad Yi interpretations can work as an oracle. Virtually everything can work as an oracle. But if you want to use the Yi, well, with Browne Walker's version you are not doing that.

 

 

[TranquilTurmoil]

1 hour ago, Harmen said:

Hmmm, how did 'the oracle' advise you to do that? In the end it doesn't really matter which text or method you use - even bad Yi interpretations can work as an oracle. Virtually everything can work as an oracle. But if you want to use the Yi, well, with Browne Walker's version you are not doing that.

 

 

My whole life became a conflict/test of faith.. I went years without speaking to a teacher, years without the ability to seek like-minded friends to name a couple things… it has to do with Walker’s interpretation of Hexagram 6 (and to a certain extent hexagram 5) essentially, how In the face of seeking external help or would repeatedly come up, and how the Oracle applied it to just about every decision I could possibly make (and I bet it would appear that I somehow went astray and wildly misinterpreted it —- yes And no——-). 
 

Im response to the last statement, I would never advise anyone to start with the Walker interpretation (I think)… but it still has some value for my specific path now, as with the combo of Walker and Wilhelm it both gives the Yi the opportunity to communicate clearly and with a wide array of “options”, and I can derive benefit from it on multiple levels. But it might be a practice to discard if it ever feels right to.

Edited July 20, 2021 by TranquilTurmoil