Is fulfillment a worthwhile goal ?

[TranquilTurmoil]

For the duration of all but the first few months of my path I ve thrown the pursuit of happiness to the wind. But now I feel lost… even as I’m on the right track (I believe) towards cultivation and service. The path of aimlessness and no-goal is lonely and burdensome. How does one negate the ego while adequately nourishing the spirit? If you do your best to let go of your desires and still haven’t arrived at enduring serenity… do you just keep going? Taking over/charge  doesn’t seem to ever help… and passive waiting is unsatisfactory. It would be one thing if I felt I was seeking irreversible transcendence, but I’m actually seeking unwavering immersion and the connection and compassion that comes with it. But when the only ppl who reciprocate in your life are your family, your Internet forum sangha of two weeks, a best friend that doesn’t want to be more than friends, and a lovely handful of retired zen center hippy do-gooders…. What’s the inspiration to be self-sacrificing other than to uphold your vows and honor your ancestors? I’m healing and losing heart, grateful and jaded, finding my way but resisting that it isn’t matching my hopes and expectations. (I know hope and expectation are hindrances and delusions… but only realized beings are potentially without hindrance and delusion)

maybe some of you will have helpful insights and prescient wisdom. With all the  tension in this post bordering on negstivity I think I’m gonna give myself a luminous. Spacious, warm hug… and not expect an easy or satisfying answer. 🤷🏼‍♂️🤗🤷🏼‍♂️

Edited July 11, 2021 by TranquilTurmoil

[old3bob]

Just a little reflection:

1. instead of negating the ego per-se many teachings and teachers say it falls away while progressively following the dharma's as best we can,  thus all the so called little things can add up to big things (so to speak) on their own without us getting in the way, as I'm sure you know.

 

2. Is thought about self sacrificing real self sacrificing  that has no motive or designs of its own?   Btw, and on a more mundane level any form of work well done has rewards (positive flow) of its own does it not?

 

3. hopes and expectations are of the human experience just like so many other things we go through. I don't think we have to renounce or demean them, just work through them.  Is there any being living in manifest form that does not have to deal with such, including "realized" beings? 

 

4. If we put enlightenment, or anything else for that matter, way out there on a limb to be reached for then that does create tension and possibly a fall from too much extension.  The fact is that enlightenment will never come in some future time for it can only be right now thus all the methods done in time are preparation for being right now and should not be binding projections or condition's like chains of lead or gold.

 

5. if we are thankful for what we have now then more. which can also be less, can develop from where we are presently at, which is really the only place we can put one foot or step in front of another.

 

6.  "Desiderata" has some universal like advice along these lines:

 

GO PLACIDLY amid the noise and the haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence. As far as possible, without surrender, be on good terms with all persons.

Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even to the dull and the ignorant; they too have their story.

Avoid loud and aggressive persons; they are vexatious to the spirit. If you compare yourself with others, you may become vain or bitter, for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself.

Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans. Keep interested in your own career, however humble; it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time.

Exercise caution in your business affairs, for the world is full of trickery. But let this not blind you to what virtue there is; many persons strive for high ideals, and everywhere life is full of heroism.

Be yourself. Especially do not feign affection. Neither be cynical about love; for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment, it is as perennial as the grass.

Take kindly the counsel of the years, gracefully surrendering the things of youth.

Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune. But do not distress yourself with dark imaginings. Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness.

Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself. You are a child of the universe no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here.

And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should. Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be. And whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life, keep peace in your soul. With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be cheerful. Strive to be happy.

By Max Ehrmann © 1927
Original text

 

 

 

Edited July 11, 2021 by old3bob

[TranquilTurmoil]

Thank you <3. Powerful and simple reassurance and encouragement.

 

Namaste 

[dwai]

7 hours ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

If you do your best to let go of your desires and still haven’t arrived at enduring serenity…

This implies you are aware of a serenity that comes and goes. If so, who or what knows this serenity and absence of it? Is that one serene?

[TranquilTurmoil]

To clarify: I have glimpsed serenity… profound serenity from a peak experience that lasted a few days and recurred on and off for a short time, as well as more insignificant and rather less understandable moments/minutes/hour or so of a deep softening, a sense of being home in peace.

currently I don’t possess a serenity that comes and goes, I more regularly experience bittersweet somewhat humorous and graceful perspectives (and sporadic insights).

 

I’m guessing you are doing direct pointing and I’m explaining myself lol. But serenity was just experienced rather than me experiencing serenity? However the ego still identified with it in a self-referential way. But yes, higher nature seems that to be directly and profoundly insightful…. Though I can’t testify if it serene or if it just (sometimes) activates feelings of serenity when it comes forth 🙏🏼

[old3bob]

The following is not exactly on topic but I'd say that few of us are ready or properly prepared to give up our personal mind and its identity which is ok until we are and doing so as safely as possible,  for to do so without proper steps and revealed guidance entails dangers...  

[dwai]

1 hour ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

To clarify: I have glimpsed serenity… profound serenity from a peak experience that lasted a few days and recurred on and off for a short time, as well as more insignificant and rather less understandable moments/minutes/hour or so of a deep softening, a sense of being home in peace.

currently I don’t possess a serenity that comes and goes, I more regularly experience bittersweet somewhat humorous and graceful perspectives (and sporadic insights).

I’m pointing towards that which knows both the profound serenity and the absence of it. Turn your attention to that — find out where that one is.  

1 hour ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

 

I’m guessing you are doing direct pointing and I’m explaining myself lol. But serenity was just experienced rather than me experiencing serenity? However the ego still identified with it in a self-referential way. But yes, higher nature seems that to be directly and profoundly insightful…. Though I can’t testify if it serene or if it just (sometimes) activates feelings of serenity when it comes forth 🙏🏼

 

[TranquilTurmoil]

On 7/11/2021 at 3:04 PM, dwai said:

I’m pointing towards that which knows both the profound serenity and the absence of it. Turn your attention to that — find out where that one is.  

 

I see. I bounce back and forth (and sometimes simultaneously?) between resting in awareness/observing mind/subtly, gently willing myself towards purifying the mind, intention, thought through intention, and either contemplating spontaneously or more insidiously reflecting/ruminating , indulging in unskillful thought or self absorption. Hope that points you to where “I” currently am… and whatever you feel is wise advice (or non-advice) I ll welcome and consider 🙏🏼

[TranquilTurmoil]

Fwiw I think I’m in the process of healing and integrating… it’s just sometimes we need a good vent and look to the clouds and ask “Lord! Where art thou?” ⛅️ 

[TranquilTurmoil]

On 7/11/2021 at 3:04 PM, dwai said:

I’m pointing towards that which knows both the profound serenity and the absence of it. Turn your attention to that — find out where that one is.  

 

Funny that I would stumble across this article tonight: https://tricycle.org/trikedaily/highest-level-of-samadhi/ I know you aren’t a Buddhist but I think it’s teaching what you are getting at, as well as incorporating/reflecting the teachings found in Awakening to the Tao by Liu YiMing 🙏🏼

[dwai]

3 hours ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

I see. I bounce back and forth (and sometimes simultaneously?) between resting in awareness/observing mind/subtly, gently willing myself towards purifying the mind, intention, thought through intention, and either contemplating spontaneously or more insidiously reflecting/ruminating , indulging in unskillful thought or self absorption. Hope that points you to where “I” currently am… and whatever you feel is wise advice (or non-advice) I ll welcome and consider 🙏🏼

You have to recognize and rest in/as that which knows both the back and the forth. It is right there, under your nose, so to speak. 
 

Okay, try this exercise — “without thinking, can you tell who you are?” 
 

[dwai]

1 hour ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

Funny that I would stumble across this article tonight: https://tricycle.org/trikedaily/highest-level-of-samadhi/ I know you aren’t a Buddhist but I think it’s teaching what you are getting at, as well as incorporating/reflecting the teachings found in Awakening to the Tao by Liu YiMing 🙏🏼

They are all the same teaching - because it is the same True Nature. I’m not teaching anything my friend — I’m just pointing. 🙏🏾

[TranquilTurmoil]

9 minutes ago, dwai said:

You have to recognize and rest in/as that which knows both the back and the forth. It is right there, under your nose, so to speak. 
 

Okay, try this exercise — “without thinking, can you tell who you are?” 
 

I believe I recognize the silent canvas, and then ego usually manifests and draws all over it lol. It’s like I’m afraid of the stillness. Maybe ego fears for its security and prominence? Any tips other than patience and acceptance for not polishing the mirror but rather being the clear mirror and thus letting the dust fall off of itself? 

[dwai]

3 minutes ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

I believe I recognize the silent canvas, and then ego usually manifests and draws all over it lol. It’s like I’m afraid of the stillness. Maybe ego fears for its security and prominence? Any tips other than patience and acceptance for not polishing the mirror but rather being the clear mirror and thus letting the dust fall off of itself? 

Just stay as that silent canvas. Just marinate in it. Forget about everything else during that period.
 

For me it works best when I have/want nothing to achieve, no where else to be, nothing else to do. Drop all ideas about what meditation is (or isn’t), how many minutes/hours/days it’s going to take to meditate/become enlightened/etc etc. Just for the moment, be the silent canvas. That’s all. And again, and again. Moment to moment. If the monkey mind acts up, no problem — that’s already gone. 

[TranquilTurmoil]

I ve been doing that since your last post, and I feel much more at ease. Im hesitant to even be posting ! However to clarify: I’m seeking wholeness rather than spiritual realization at the moment. I work towards realization, that’s my aspiration but what gets me is a feeling of lack and longing. The grasping and rejecting that comes from that lack is the root of my suffering and creates the cycle of ego recreating itself ceaselessly. But thank you for the helpful pointing. 🙏🏼

5 minutes ago, dwai said:

Just stay as that silent canvas. Just marinate in it. Forget about everything else during that period.
 

For me it works best when I have/want nothing to achieve, no where else to be, nothing else to do. Drop all ideas about what meditation is (or isn’t), how many minutes/hours/days it’s going to take to meditate/become enlightened/etc etc. Just for the moment, be the silent canvas. That’s all. And again, and again. Moment to moment. If the monkey mind acts up, no problem — that’s already gone. 

 

[dwai]

19 minutes ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

I ve been doing that since your last post, and I feel much more at ease. Im hesitant to even be posting ! However to clarify: I’m seeking wholeness rather than spiritual realization at the moment.
 

What can you add to that silent canvas to augment it?

 

what can you remove from that silent canvas that will diminish it? 
 

The silent canvas IS wholeness. Everything arises in it, from it and dissipates back into it. Hindu tradition calls it “Purnam” — “complete”. 

Quote

I work towards realization, that’s my aspiration but what gets me is a feeling of lack and longing. The grasping and rejecting that comes from that lack is the root of my suffering and creates the cycle of ego recreating itself ceaselessly. But thank you for the helpful pointing. 🙏🏼

 

Is the silent canvas longing? What is it that feels the lack? Experiences this unknown yearning/longing? 

Edited July 13, 2021 by dwai

[TranquilTurmoil]

To elaborate:

 

I have lived quite of a difficult path by Any standard the last 8 years. To the point even I had my peak experience and glimpsed what I glimpsed, i experienced it as salvation… and yet I did not arrive at a more than temporary happiness if that. I know it’s unhealthy to be attached to our stories, but I ve faced intense and prolonged isolation + separation from everything and everyone I had loved prior to starting. While I recognize the inherent serenity and illumination of true self/nature, until we reach a much higher peak than I have reached, it is merged with ego, with the psyche, it’s trauma . So I believe my longing comes from the heart the way a parent would grieve for it’s child or a child yearning for it’s parent after being rather forcibly separated. True nature I believe can be serene with this. But I have more mountains to climb before I cure the ills of my heart and mind. I’m inclined to look for it in friendship and love and service more than cultivation methods at this moment while still cultivating wholeheartedly and sincerely. As jack kornfield said, “many of the best meditators are slightly depressed… as they have old wounds still to heal “.

 

With that said the practice of resting in the canvas to the best of my abilities has been very helpful as well as the support of TDB, my zen center, the few friends I have left outside of that, and a newfound hope for a fulfilling life.

 

 

40 minutes ago, dwai said:

What can you add to that silent canvas to augment it?

 

what can you remove from that silent canvas that will diminish it? 
 

The silent canvas IS wholeness. Everything arises in it, from it and dissipates back into it. Hindu tradition calls it “Purnam” — “complete”. 

Is the silent canvas longing? What is it that feels the lack? Experiences this unknown yearning/longing? 

 

[TranquilTurmoil]

PS what appeals to me about the Mahayana Buddhist path is it’s true goodness and profound commitment to truth and compassion. When that doesn’t feel reciprocated and actually feels quite the opposite often, with no final liberation in sight (that I can see at least though I don’t fully understand how the higher Bhumis/attainments work/function)… it can really lead to burnout. At the same time I have no intention of abandoning my vows or inner truth. So I think I just have to do my best. Which I guess is all we can ever really do 🙏🏼

[dwai]

2 minutes ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

To elaborate:

 

I have lived quite of a difficult path by Any standard the last 8 years. To the point even I had my peak experience and glimpsed what I glimpsed, i experienced it as salvation… and yet I did not arrive at a more than temporary happiness if that. I know it’s unhealthy to be attached to our stories, but I ve faced intense and prolonged isolation + separation from everything and everyone I had loved prior to starting. While I recognize the inherent serenity and illumination of true self/nature, until we reach a much higher peak than I have reached, it is merged with ego, with the psyche, it’s trauma . So I believe my longing comes from the heart the way a parent would grieve for it’s child or a child yearning for it’s parent after being rather forcibly separated. True nature I believe can be serene with this. But I have more mountains to climb before I cure the ills of my heart and mind. I’m inclined to look for it in friendship and love and service more than cultivation methods at this moment while still cultivating wholeheartedly and sincerely. As jack kornfield said, “many of the best meditators are slightly depressed… as they have old wounds still to heal “.

 

I get that. I’m on a similar path too. Old ways/patterns fall away. Suddenly people who’ve known us for a long time, expecting certain kinds of behavior/reactions etc from us, don’t find those anymore. It’s like they don’t know us anymore. And we know them at a far deeper level than they themselves are aware.  So they are unable to relate to that person they thought they knew. “I thought I knew you, but you’re not that person at all!”

 

It is one possibly natural outcome of awakening and it is disconcerting. That’s why proper community was recommended in the traditional systems (sangha). It is easier for monks I feel. For us householders, it can sometimes feel like a rollercoaster which doesn’t stop. But the thing is, we aren’t really on the roller coaster. We ARE the roller coaster…

 

2 minutes ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

 

With that said the practice of resting in the canvas to the best of my abilities has been very helpful as well as the support of TDB, my zen center, the few friends I have left outside of that, and a newfound hope for a fulfilling life.

 

 

 

One might feel that they’re straddling two boats. Each going the other way. But really, we are the water on which both (all) boats travel. Don’t think like the person who was riding the boats. Recognize that you that on which all boats float. 🙏🏾

[TranquilTurmoil]

Yes! Very apt description. I went from seeking transcendence and escape , to being stuck at sea, to glimpsing the other shore, to setting sail again, to stopping by my hometown; expecting a hero’s welcome just to find it deserted, to feeling stuck between two worlds as you describe, to moving towards the unity of my spiritual life and my “new life”… and letting my hopes, expectation, and attachments to my “old life” fall away. But yes we are the water not merely the wave… and hopefully one day I ll realize the water IS the ocean. 🌊

[Bindi]

3 hours ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

I ve been doing that since your last post, and I feel much more at ease. Im hesitant to even be posting ! However to clarify: I’m seeking wholeness rather than spiritual realization at the moment. I work towards realization, that’s my aspiration but what gets me is a feeling of lack and longing. The grasping and rejecting that comes from that lack is the root of my suffering and creates the cycle of ego recreating itself ceaselessly. But thank you for the helpful pointing. 🙏🏼

 

I find this post ‘real’, acknowledging a feeling of lack and longing and seeking wholeness rather than spiritual realisation. I read somewhere a while ago a yogi will ask another yogi ‘Do you have prana’, by which I understand something more going on than just a mental realisation. Daoism talks about Jing qi and shen, more than just a spiritual realisation, something that fills the subtle channels and dantians. 

[freeform]

On 11/07/2021 at 6:42 AM, TranquilTurmoil said:

The path of aimlessness and no-goal

This is interesting - what do you mean by this?

 

How do you understand Wei Wu Wei?

[TranquilTurmoil]

2 hours ago, freeform said:

This is interesting - what do you mean by this?

 

How do you understand Wei Wu Wei?

It’s more to do with Chan/Zen although it seems a bit derivative or unified with Taoist philosophy.

 

My limited understanding of Wei wu wei is the harmonious, spontaneous, exercise of spirit to the exclusion of ego through intuitive and constant discernment. For me, this led to years of passive sitting and seems to be culminating now with various natural and largely spontaneous pursuits.

 

back to Zen/Chan: some teachers emphasize that there”Is nothing to attain”, “nowhere to go, nothing to do” that you sit just to sit without any gaining idea…. Wholehearted focus/mindfulness in the moment yes, working towards realization consciously…. Usually not. There is also the teaching of the 3 doors of liberation (1. Aimlessness, 2. Emptiness, 3. Signlessness). Aimlessness works on a few levels, such as emptying the mind of ideas, attitudes, expectations, making way for sincerity, gratitude, compsssion, and joy (although joy was usually sacrificed in my experience), directing one towards service as opposed to seeking a path of individual liberation. I know in my devotion to the I Ching it has never led me to seek immortality or transcendence… although transcendence occasionally sneaks up on you while traversing daily life. With that said there is often little room for error and complacency at times!

 

🙏🏼

Edited July 13, 2021 by TranquilTurmoil
Autocorrect changed “constant” to “instant”

[old3bob]

another take...

 

Robert Burns 1785 (after ploughing up a mouse's house)

 

"Little, cunning, cowering, timorous beast,
Oh, what a panic is in your breast!
You need not start away so hasty
With bickering prattle!
I would be loath to run and chase you,
With murdering paddle!

I'm truly sorry man's dominion
Has broken Nature's social union,
And justifies that ill opinion
Which makes you startle
At me, your poor, earth-born companion
And fellow mortal!

I doubt not, sometimes, that you may thieve;
What then? Poor beast, you must live!
An odd ear in twenty-four sheaves
Is a small request;
I will get a blessing with what is left,
And never miss it.

Your small house, too, in ruin!
Its feeble walls the winds are scattering!
And nothing now, to build a new one,
Of coarse green foliage!
And bleak December's winds ensuing,
Both bitter and piercing!

You saw the fields laid bare and empty,
And weary winter coming fast,
And cozy here, beneath the blast,
You thought to dwell,
Till crash! The cruel coulter passed
Out through your cell.

That small heap of leaves and stubble,
Has cost you many a weary nibble!
Now you are turned out, for all your trouble,
Without house or holding,
To endure the winter's sleety dribble,
And hoar-frost cold.

But Mouse, you are not alone,
In proving foresight may be vain:
The best-laid schemes of mice and men
Go oft awry,
And leave us nothing but grief and pain,
For promised joy!

Still you are blessed, compared with me!
The present only touches you:
But oh! I backward cast my eye,
On prospects dreary!
And forward, though I cannot see,
I guess and fear!"

 

(know that too will pass)

Edited July 13, 2021 by old3bob

[freeform]

41 minutes ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

It’s more to do with Chan/Zen although it seems a bit derivative or unified with Taoist philosophy.

Chan certainly incorporated a lot of stuff into its fold.

 

42 minutes ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

back to Zen/Chan: some teachers emphasize that there”Is nothing to attain”, “nowhere to go, nothing to do” that you sit just to sit without any gaining idea….

Yeah - my question was to lead to this.

 

There’s a real discrepancy between what is practiced in the east (at least behind closed doors) and what is practiced in the west.

 

In the east, the path is very grounded in the idea of paradox. If you don’t see paradox in what you’re doing, then there’s something missing.

 

Wei Wu Wei - action without action is similar to ‘there is nothing to attain’.

 

Yet all genuine teachers I know are the most diligent action takers I have ever met. Efficient, active and effective… think Elon Musk or Ray Dalio - or any other highly successful person.

 

They may enter meditation for days or for years - yet their practice is built upon a wholesome and ‘successful’ life that they’ve built. Whether it is in a monastic setting - where they are pillars of the community and help thousands with their actions or in ‘householder’ type lives - where they’re often successful professionals, businessmen, prolific artists or respected doctors.

 

They are not the crazy beggar that gets drunk and spouts wisdom. Or the monk that only sits reciting prayers all day.
 

Every part of the path from the early through the intermediate stage is filled with disciplined, directed action. And this isn’t a comfortable sort of action, but difficult, painful, exhausting sort of action.

 

Most young people that come to the Daoist arts start out with the martial arts. This involves many hours of arduous training every day… followed by chores.

 

This goes on for years.

 

The aim of this is to build discipline, strength, resilience, dependability.

 

It is later in the path (much later) after these traits become aspects of your personality - only then do you let them go.

 

In the west, (though also in the east, these days) - that initial part is left out. Even though it forms a good 60% of the path.

 

We tend to go to the abandoning stage straight away. 
 

This results in what some people call the Chan sickness.

 

A kind of very Yin state of emptiness.

 

When a strong, disciplined mind let’s go, then things naturally follow a process that leads to meditative states.

 

When a tired, lazy, dull mind lets go, it is pulled by the ‘unwholesome karmic tendencies’ into a deep state of a nihilistic sort of existence.

 

It is unfortunate that you’ve been led into this sort of ‘Aimlessness’. This is not the original intent of the process.

I believe it’s the result of ‘teachers’ taking shortcuts or ‘adapting the path for westerners’ - or just simply cutting out the hard stuff.

 

If getting over the Chan sickness is something you’d like to do, then I would suggest doing the opposite of ‘aimlessness’ for some time.

 

Have a well defined structure to your day. Stick to the structure. Add some  directed form of physical difficulty - such as exercise - and make that part of your every day. Find a way of being of service to people too. It needs to be something where you take on some responsibility. Handing out soup is fine - but it’s only a start, there needs to be something more on the line for you, some pressure.

 

You can be of service through your job - it doesn’t have to just be volunteering. But to really be of service in your job, you must take it upon yourself to be exceptionally good at what you do - so that you always give back more than whatever payment you receive for it.