Is fulfillment a worthwhile goal ?

[TranquilTurmoil]

A year ago I wrote a limerick that started, “There once was a mouse who lived in a house on the tip of the tallest mountain.”

Edited July 13, 2021 by TranquilTurmoil
typo

[TranquilTurmoil]

3 minutes ago, freeform said:

Chan certainly incorporated a lot of stuff into its fold.

 

Yeah - my question was to lead to this.

 

There’s a real discrepancy between what is practiced in the east (at least behind closed doors) and what is practiced in the west.

 

In the east, the path is very grounded in the idea of paradox. If you don’t see paradox in what you’re doing, then there’s something missing.

 

Wei Wu Wei - action without action is similar to ‘there is nothing to attain’.

 

Yet all genuine teachers I know are the most diligent action takers I have ever met. Efficient, active and effective… think Elon Musk or Ray Dalio - or any other highly successful person.

 

They may enter meditation for days or for years - yet their practice is built upon a wholesome and ‘successful’ life that they’ve built. Whether it is in a monastic setting - where they are pillars of the community and help thousands with their actions or in ‘householder’ type lives - where they’re often successful professionals, businessmen, prolific artists or respected doctors.

 

They are not the crazy beggar that gets drunk and spouts wisdom. Or the monk that only sits reciting prayers all day.
 

Every part of the path from the early through the intermediate stage is filled with disciplined, directed action. And this isn’t a comfortable sort of action, but difficult, painful, exhausting sort of action.

 

Most young people that come to the Daoist arts start out with the martial arts. This involves many hours of arduous training every day… followed by chores.

 

This goes on for years.

 

The aim of this is to build discipline, strength, resilience, dependability.

 

It is later in the path (much later) after these traits become aspects of your personality - only then do you let them go.

 

In the west, (though also in the east, these days) - that initial part is left out. Even though it forms a good 60% of the path.

 

We tend to go to the abandoning stage straight away. 
 

This results in what some people call the Chan sickness.

 

A kind of very Yin state of emptiness.

 

When a strong, disciplined mind let’s go, then things naturally follow a process that leads to meditative states.

 

When a tired, lazy, dull mind lets go, it is pulled by the ‘unwholesome karmic tendencies’ into a deep state of a nihilistic sort of existence.

 

It is unfortunate that you’ve been led into this sort of ‘Aimlessness’. This is not the original intent of the process.

I believe it’s the result of ‘teachers’ taking shortcuts or ‘adapting the path for westerners’ - or just simply cutting out the hard stuff.

 

If getting over the Chan sickness is something you’d like to do, then I would suggest doing the opposite of ‘aimlessness’ for some time.

 

Have a well defined structure to your day. Stick to the structure. Add some  directed form of physical difficulty - such as exercise - and make that part of your every day. Find a way of being of service to people too. It needs to be something where you take on some responsibility. Handing out soup is fine - but it’s only a start, there needs to be something more on the line for you, some pressure.

 

You can be of service through your job - it doesn’t have to just be volunteering. But to really be of service in your job, you must take it upon yourself to be exceptionally good at what you do - so that you always give back more than whatever payment you receive for it.

Free form: I appreciate your wisdom and perspective… although as I often feel communicating with like minds I feel like part of your perspective on my particular path is lacking.

 

Aimlessness as taught by Thich Nhat Hanh is meant to be practiced in the midst of sangha, work, daily integrated life. However the I Ching had me strive to let go of ALL desires so I had nothing left to do other than arduous, uncomfortable, mindful sitting in the isolation of my home w/ family, followed by deepening my practice in the midst of a chaotic and lonely psych ward. I say passive sitting but it was very willful cultivation of equanimity…. To the exclusion of joy unfortunately. My “service” revolves around being there for my mentally ill friends who are loving but challenging, foregoing worldly pursuits in favor of the narrow path of cultivation, and relinquishing ideas and identities. However, sangha and flexible structure are crucial now! Pushing myself is important for sure, but I’m waiting for my health to recover or for my miracle healer to appear to me… or both.

 

to clarify, my master, my Oracle seems to have intentionally led me to The Yin form of emptiness you describe. However, it is forecasted that I’m on the verge of a great change and I intellectually believe that. It’s just hard to take it to heart when i have been “without” for so long.

 

much appreciation 🙏🏼

[TranquilTurmoil]

To clarify: I peaked VERY early and whilst severely traumatized. So I had to cultivate after “waking up” and forego recognition/withdraw into concealment and undertake severe tests of will and faith. I think now I’m ready to step into wholeness and integration, but still without identity based structure

[freeform]

18 minutes ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

I think now I’m ready to step into wholeness and integration, but still without identity based structure

You're free of identity-based structures?

[TranquilTurmoil]

5 minutes ago, freeform said:

You're free of identity-based structures?

Not at all! But that doesnt mean I try like to hell to lol.

[TranquilTurmoil]

It's just that ego will latch onto anything, and If i shaved off my 4 year beard and hair, willfully re-immersed myself into a more "normal" societal structure it would be very gratifying and I assume the I Ching believes would do more harm than good for me right now. So I'm planning on operating on the fringes and with select people at the moment until I'm ready to re-immerse myself into a more sober, ordinary life

[TranquilTurmoil]

For further clarity: My deluded nihilism only re-emerged recently. I used to suffer with a purpose, and thus felt meaning and hope. It's just that my deep hope led to deep disillusionment and thus disenchantment. it's kind of like climbing a mountain hoping to be welcomed at the top by your loved ones and building a new life there, only to find that you have to both climb down the mountain and start climbing new ones as well. It's a transition

[TranquilTurmoil]

For even more clarification: I do not doubt that I have or still do suffer from certain form(s) of Chan Sickness. It's just that i think that was the inevitable collateral damage of the "poisonous methods" used my master. Otherwise, I imagine I would have been a gratified, self-righteous "half-enlightened master" as described in verse 80 of the Hua Hu Ching (Walker). I suppose that is a far more serious detrimental Chan sickness than suffering from being deflated and at times destitute,

Edited July 13, 2021 by TranquilTurmoil

[freeform]

2 minutes ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

Not at all! But that doesnt mean I try like to hell to lol.

😄

 

Well - neither am I - not even close.

 

29 minutes ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

I think now I’m ready to step into wholeness and integration, but still without identity based structure

You do understand that you’re asking for something close to impossible…

 

2 minutes ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

It's just that ego will latch onto anything

It already has. I’m sure you realise this.

 

You can let go of egoic tendencies but only when your ego is strong and ‘wholesome’. Only when you have developed the correct inner characteristics, can these structures be let go of.

 

A person with inner strength will be able to laugh about themselves when teased. A person with a wounded self image will be wounded ever deeper by the same teasing.

 

When these structures are unwholesome, what you let go of is self awareness. The structures cling even more, but hidden in the haze created by ignorance.

 

5 minutes ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

I used to suffer with a purpose, and thus felt meaning and hope.

Meaning and hope aren’t necessarily wholesome characteristics.
 

Wholesome characteristics are the sort that other people can see in you and your actions.

 

If you’re dependable, effective, reliable, disciplined. These are the wholesome characteristics that are necessary. These are linked to being able to act effectively in the world.

 

14 minutes ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

the I Ching believes

The I Ching in spiritual context isn’t a thing or a consciousness apart from you.

 

Its a process by which you can delve into yourself to gather insight into a moment in time.

 

Your ability to penetrate the outer layers to achieve insight is what decides how accurate and useful your Yi Jing reading is. (Amongst many others)

 

It is not an infallible oracle - it’s a window into yourself… an imperfect, cloudy window.

 

You cannot shirk the responsibility for yourself by giving power over to the Yi Jing - because in reality, you’re giving power over to a part of yourself that’s clouded in ignorance…

 

You’re being led by an unconscious part of yourself, with the illusion that you’re being led by a benevolent master.

 

I had a teacher who was a Yi Jing master. For him it was a way of understanding the process of change on the level of the Qi field. It wasn’t an oracle, it wasn’t to guide ones actions or predict the future - it was a way to understand the underlying mechanics to the process of change in a given moment.

[TranquilTurmoil]

23 minutes ago, freeform said:

😄

 

Well - neither am I - not even close.

 

You do understand that you’re asking for something close to impossible…

 

It already has. I’m sure you realise this.

 

You can let go of egoic tendencies but only when your ego is strong and ‘wholesome’. Only when you have developed the correct inner characteristics, can these structures be let go of.

 

A person with inner strength will be able to laugh about themselves when teased. A person with a wounded self image will be wounded ever deeper by the same teasing.

 

When these structures are unwholesome, what you let go of is self awareness. The structures cling even more, but hidden in the haze created by ignorance.

 

Meaning and hope aren’t necessarily wholesome characteristics.
 

Wholesome characteristics are the sort that other people can see in you and your actions.

 

If you’re dependable, effective, reliable, disciplined. These are the wholesome characteristics that are necessary. These are linked to being able to act effectively in the world.

 

The I Ching in spiritual context isn’t a thing or a consciousness apart from you.

 

Its a process by which you can delve into yourself to gather insight into a moment in time.

 

Your ability to penetrate the outer layers to achieve insight is what decides how accurate and useful your Yi Jing reading is. (Amongst many others)

 

It is not an infallible oracle - it’s a window into yourself… an imperfect, cloudy window.

 

You cannot shirk the responsibility for yourself by giving power over to the Yi Jing - because in reality, you’re giving power over to a part of yourself that’s clouded in ignorance…

 

You’re being led by an unconscious part of yourself, with the illusion that you’re being led by a benevolent master.

 

I had a teacher who was a Yi Jing master. For him it was a way of understanding the process of change on the level of the Qi field. It wasn’t an oracle, it wasn’t to guide ones actions or predict the future - it was a way to understand the underlying mechanics to the process of change in a given moment.

The undertaking of the "bodhisattva path" is a close to an impossible task; however I cant think of anything more worthwhile.

 

I like to laugh at myself through being self-effacing. It's not that i have a wounded self-image as much as i Have (energetic?) knots/triggers that make me harden when confronted.

 

I agree about you for wholesome characteristics... for a person with greater development than I had. There is isnt much reliable or dependable of someone who undertakes the path of a "home-leaver" much less one who is bound by his path to often retreat and seperate (with the ultimate goal of being able to both seperate and unite). Meaning and hope were my imperfect raft to get me through trying times. I dont recognize their intrinsic virtue just to clarify.

 

With regards to the I Ching, I never intended to surrender to it as one surrenders to a Guru... Life and it led me to that. I have hoped and mostly believed in it's benevolence and wisdom. Whether or not it is an external, infallible Immortal oracle is i bet up for debate and something I have often doubted myself. However, my experience was that of an External guide as I was led to do things no part of me seemingly wanted to do and in hindsight seemed very beneficial... albeit coming at profound costs.

 

While I certainly have developed attachment and reliance on the YI, sometimes wholesome and sometimes unwholesome, I believe that it can and probably ought to be transcended in time. However until you reach a certain point of the path, it is my understanding that you cling to the path as your raft crossing the ocean of samsara and samsaric delusion.

 

Fwiw although tempting I rarely if ever divine the future with the Yi. I use it as a guide with clear-seeing that leads me to optimal decision making, as well as discernment in conduct... it's hard to choose wholesome states/actions over unwholesome states/actions even with the help of a teacher/guide/master/oracle... how much more so must it be when you are relying on your self before you have sufficiently yielded leadership to your own higher parts/nature

Edited July 13, 2021 by TranquilTurmoil

[TranquilTurmoil]

In summary, I recognize your wisdom, insight, and experienced... it's just that i think i require a very nuanced and counter-intuitive understanding... then I can be assisted much more fully. I hope that doesnt come off as a delusion of grandeur. 

[TranquilTurmoil]

I have no way to clarify if the optimal path to life is to forego divination and do your best surrounding yourself with the right people, places, circumstance, attitudes etc. But I doubt that whether the I ching is external or not that whatever I consult in the process has impure motivations. Hope that clarifies where I am at, how I got here, and why I am rather dug in to my faith and devotion (whether misguide or not I can only do my best to discern, and then adapt)

[TranquilTurmoil]

As I understand it, the goal of Chan seems to simultaneously become "A True Person of No Rank" and nourish, assist, deliver oneself and sentient beings rather indiscriminately. Having "rank" (whether in the form of internal ideas or external recognition" sabotages the "True Person". Also, if you have the idea of being/becoming "A True Person of No Rank" it becomes an endless, circular, egoic striving. The only way I've approached this is through surrender, letting go, and doing what I have determined (in often strange ways) what life requires of me. "A man with a 'Why' will endure almost any 'How'"... that doesnt imply the whole process will be enjoyable

 

-Elliot

[freeform]

16 minutes ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

I hope that doesnt come off as a delusion of grandeur.

 

It doesn't come off as delusions of grandeur, no

 

It appears that what you're asking for is a way to stay on the same course, but arrive at a different destination (as much as you've been taught that it's all destinationless, you're still very much a part of the world of cause and effect)

 

37 minutes ago, freeform said:

You do understand that you’re asking for something close to impossible…

 

That is what I mean by that ^

 

I don't mean that what you've undertaken is difficult.

 

42 minutes ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

i require a very nuanced and counter-intuitive understanding... then I can be assisted much more fully

 

It's not that there won't be avenues that purport to give this impossibility to you - it's just they all invariably lead to delusion and ignorance. You can't expect to stay the same and transform at the same time.

 

18 minutes ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

Hope that clarifies where I am at, how I got here, and why I am rather dug in to my faith and devotion

 

It does - and I've read quite a few of your other posts too. I am not suggesting you change your course of action, that's not the point. I can only share with you my experience and understanding. My teacher used to have a clinic and a large proportion of his patients were monks and lay practitioners with a variation of Chan sickness.

I'm responding because you asked for advice. What I'm looking for is the quality of your response to my 'challenging' of your views. Depending on the response, I proceed accordingly.

 

Also, in part what I'm sharing is for the other people who resonate with that empty nihilistic state that is very common. This is as much for you as it is for others reading this and feel that they resonate with your situation.

 

[TranquilTurmoil]

15 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

It doesn't come off as delusions of grandeur, no

 

It appears that what you're asking for is a way to stay on the same course, but arrive at a different destination (as much as you've been taught that it's all destinationless, you're still very much a part of the world of cause and effect)

 

 

That is what I mean by that ^

 

I don't mean that what you've undertaken is difficult.

 

 

It's not that there won't be avenues that purport to give this impossibility to you - it's just they all invariably lead to delusion and ignorance. You can't expect to stay the same and transform at the same time.

 

 

It does - and I've read quite a few of your other posts too. I am not suggesting you change your course of action, that's not the point. I can only share with you my experience and understanding. My teacher used to have a clinic and a large proportion of his patients were monks and lay practitioners with a variation of Chan sickness.

I'm responding because you asked for advice. What I'm looking for is the quality of your response to my 'challenging' of your views. Depending on the response, I proceed accordingly.

 

Also, in part what I'm sharing is for the other people who resonate with that empty nihilistic state that is very common. This is as much for you as it is for others reading this and feel that they resonate with your situation.

 

Fwiw it’s worth I downloaded a dating app two days ago and am sincerely pursuing that Avenue. I’m rapidly reintegrating into certain subcultures while realizing my past might be better left in the past. I do intend to get a career or something in the next two years when I cancel my Disability. I’m not asking for validation as much as I yearn to be truly understood and seen as I am. I think then receptivity will open and I can have a true dynamic instead of me venting, and half appreciating and half tolerating the responses I get. I certainly appreciate your responses but believe if you personally seek to help me, believe that’s a genuine and worthwhile possibility, then getting to the true heart of the matter is a necessary prerequisite. Feel free to give feedback as appropriate

 

🙏🏼

[TranquilTurmoil]

For emphasis and hopefully not egoic self-defense, verse 41 of TTC by Derek Lin:

[freeform]

9 minutes ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

I’m not asking for validation as much as I yearn to be truly understood and seen as I am. I think then receptivity will open and I can have a true dynamic instead of me venting, and half appreciating and half tolerating the responses I get.

 

I appreciate that. I do struggle with replying to people, because I'm well aware that stuff I say comes across quite harsh.

 

Harsh in the sense that you can have harsh lighting in a photograph - where the difference between light and shadow are stark and unflattering.

 

It's difficult on a forum because there is no way for others to see that I aim to communicate with love, but with a stark sharpness that quickly cuts through wrong and right.

 

And on the other hand, not everyone on an internet forum should be trusted. That would certainly be my advice.

 

With the sharpness, I want to quickly come to the point, instead of drawing you in with a more flattering approach. I do not wish to draw you in - I just want to share (my) truth, and leave it up to you to distinguish whether it applies or not.

 

18 minutes ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

I certainly appreciate your responses but believe if you personally seek to help me, believe that’s a genuine and worthwhile possibility, then getting to the true heart of the matter is a necessary prerequisite. Feel free to give feedback as appropriate

 

I genuinely wish for you to find the right help for yourself. I cannot help you - and nor can anyone (or anything) else. Even a teacher can only help create the conditions for you to progress by yourself.

 

And I certainly cannot assist you on your terms. It's like asking me to hammer my round peg through your square hole (that came out weirder than I intended!)

 

I just present my round peg - and it's up to you what you do with it.

 

 

[freeform]

38 minutes ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

For emphasis and hopefully not egoic self-defense, verse 41 of TTC by Derek Lin:

 

That's missing the key first stanza

 

something like:

 

When superior people hear of the Dao, they practice it diligently
When average people hear of the Dao, they tinker with it
When lower people hear of the Dao, they laugh at it
If they didn't laugh, it would not be the Dao.

[TranquilTurmoil]

26 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

That's missing the key first stanza

 

something like:

 

When superior people hear of the Dao, they practice it diligently
When average people hear of the Dao, they tinker with it
When lower people hear of the Dao, they laugh at it
If they didn't laugh, it would not be the Dao.

I cropped it out intentionally as I didn’t want to distinguish or identify the good folks on the Dao Bums as falling in any of the three classes. 
I understand your sincerity and also that you feel you aren’t the one to help or feel that you can point me to anyone who can.

while that is a lonely analysis, the thing I don’t understand is why most teachers would have fixed methods and styles (unless they are only confident in teaching their expertise) and it’s a bit disheartening that I don’t come across how I perceive myself (and how no on else seems too). Yet it seems to be the natural way/course for the time being. Which is why I sort of lost interest in finding a teacher (for the moment) and am instead seeking refuge in community.

Edited July 13, 2021 by TranquilTurmoil

[TranquilTurmoil]

Fwiw I don’t think I’m asking anyone to enable me. I just think most ppl’s intuitive response to help me doesn’t actually match up to what is beneficial to me. This the need for subtle understanding. My 2 cents 🙏🏼

[freeform]

2 minutes ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

I cropped it out intentionally as I didn’t want to distinguish or identify the good folks on the Dao Bums as falling in any of the three classes. 

 

The DDJ is also harsh and unflattering sometimes!

 

1 minute ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

I just think most ppl’s intuitive response to help me doesn’t actually match up to what is beneficial to me. This the need for subtle understanding.

 

How do you know that people's understanding isn't subtle enough?

[TranquilTurmoil]

9 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

The DDJ is also harsh and unflattering sometimes!

 

 

How do you know that people's understanding isn't subtle enough?

No one has been so inclined to video chat with me (although me and creation talked and stirling has my number) and so are taking in what I type and their mind does with it what it will. On top of that, I know of no one who has had the type of dynamic with the I Ching that I have had and so when I describe it it may seem like I’m rationalizing or spiritual bypassing or have ordinary delusions from living in a bubble. The only people who I have even read about going through what I went through are TB saints like Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa etc. as well as Chan/Zen legends… clearly coming from a 28 year old without a standard teacher, typing on an Internet forum…. Well needless to say that’s a tough sell. 
maybe the truth lies somewhere in between but I don’t think I’m accurately perceived by most and that’s through no real fault of the Bums.

to quote a Hinton verse of the TTC:

”Words go on failing and failing… nothing like abiding in its midst.”

[freeform]

6 minutes ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

No one has been so inclined to video chat with me (although me and creation talked and stirling has my number) and so are taking in what I type and their mind does with it what it will.

 

So you mean no one has helped you in the way that you'd like to be helped.

 

Do you see that this means you're only allowing for things that conform to your views into your consciousness?

 

Any 'help' that comes through this sort of filter will only ever support your current situation.

 

I understand that you need to be heard and understood - but believe it or not, contrary to a lot of counseling-based approaches, this is not necessarily the best form of help for you. It may simply fuel further entrench you into your clinging to your story about yourself.

 

12 minutes ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

The only people who I have even read about going through what I went through are TB saints like Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa etc. as well as Chan/Zen legends…

 

It's easy to discern whether you have actually gone through what these saints have gone through. Can you teleport yourself here in front of me? Or some other higher siddhi?

[TranquilTurmoil]

The one friend/like minded friend who recognizes me most is a reiki teacher my age (and gf to my middle school best friend who’s becoming a conventional md)… and thus she only really has support  and understanding to offer, as she is big on letting the universe be your teacher and being open-minded. So it’s tough because the people I think potentially “hold the keys” to help me unlock my own awakening have preconceived notions about me (that I caused through my honest and sincere expression/explanations)… and thus I don’t know how to let them help me. I do much better with illuminating, complementary advice that arises not in the spirit of correction but discovery, rather than informing me that I am misinformed by myself and need to correct myself in a way that violates the entire paradigm I follow without persuading me that is to my or anyone’s benefit.

I think you missed my point about the TB saints. I don’t think Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa were mahasiddhas when they sincerely sought the Way. I believe we all have bodhi-nature / potential to become fully enlightened, and sometimes extreme methods are what is required to draw that out of us. I don’t have any siddhis but I can discuss my experiences humbly, openly, sincerely for those who want to listen in hope of helping me where I am. 
🙏🏼

[TranquilTurmoil]

In response to “helping me the way I want to be helped…” it’s more nuanced. I want someone to help me In a way I can actually receive it, it’s not really a matter of preference. If someone could persuade me that I ought to live a more ordinary, healthy life I’d love that! If someone could persuade me I need to stop being complacent and work hard toward awakening in an uncomfortable way I’d  hopefully reluctantly accept that too. But instead no one has either known how to or been inclined to fully meet me where I am. Although I appreciate the efforts 🙏🏼

Edited July 13, 2021 by TranquilTurmoil