Is fulfillment a worthwhile goal ?

[freeform]

3 minutes ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

I do much better with illuminating, complementary advice that arises not in the spirit of correction but discovery, rather than informing me that I am misinformed by myself and need to correct myself in a way that violates the entire paradigm I follow without persuading me that is to my or anyone’s benefit.

 

You don't need correcting and neither do you need to violate your paradigm.

 

Just put your preconceptions aside and begin wholeheartedly training under a genuine system. Start with a beginner mind and give it everything you've got for 3 to 6 months, and then feel free to go back to your paradigm.

 

It's not up to anyone to persuade you of anything it's all up to you.

 

Sometimes it's worth putting your story, your uniqueness aside for a time - and letting something completely new and unfiltered in.

[TranquilTurmoil]

1 minute ago, freeform said:

 

You don't need correcting and neither do you need to violate your paradigm.

 

Just put your preconceptions aside and begin wholeheartedly training under a genuine system. Start with a beginner mind and give it everything you've got for 3 to 6 months, and then feel free to go back to your paradigm.

 

It's not up to anyone to persuade you of anything it's all up to you.

 

Sometimes it's worth putting your story, your uniqueness aside for a time - and letting something completely new and unfiltered in.

Freeform, 

I hope im not tiring you out with this, and i dont want to harden into impatience (or show my lack of realization by doing so lol) but while I DO want to return to beginner mind, and while I recognize that being invested in/attached to my story and uniqueness is detrimental.... It's a Catch 22. I am just now stepping back into external free will after years of somewhat voluntary/largely involuntary dependence on the I Ching for guiding my life's course (which also would seem to show that I'm "doing it wrong") I could only make such a major life decision (at this time) with the blessing of the I Ching (and I know I'm not doing much to make the I Ching sound like an appealing path lol) or at the very least the clear and strong intuition that it would be more beneficial than my current transition. On top of that, I don't even know what I'm drawn to anymore and would need direction, direction only someone with a certain depth of insight into me could give. I started this thread out of a state of genuine frustration that was spurned by me realizing my best and only true friend of 8 years definitevly doesnt want to date me, and thus i fear we are bound to drift apart (among other life letdowns). In the meantime, I am taking all the steps I know how to take to progress, but if my path has taught me anything, it's that most obstacles cant be removed by effort of will alone... it takes patience, gentleness, perseverance,  inner strength, and the oft-loaded term "Faith". Im not trying to push you away, as i wasnt trying to push anyone away, I just think we arent skillfully communicating or influencing each other at this moment in time. IF that changes that would be wonderful. But to sum up what I remember Buddha saying in describing right speech, it has to meet the following criteria: It has to be true and It has to be discerned as beneficial to say it at that given moment. While there is sometimes value in planting seeds, sometimes it's no use trying to tell people what they are unready to or in my case: unable to hear.

[TranquilTurmoil]

It just feels like those who are sincerely trying to help are attempting to hold up a mirror to their mind's image of me (which i dont think matches how I am) and those who are trying to provide friendship and support have to hold their tongue. Both of these are somewhat of a let down, but sometimes getting let down is more beneficial than getting what we think we want. However, sometimes getting what we really believe we want/need is nice lol

Edited July 13, 2021 by TranquilTurmoil

[doc benway]

"Is fulfillment a worthwhile goal?"

As far as goals goes I would say yes. Much better than most.

 

On 7/11/2021 at 1:42 AM, TranquilTurmoil said:

For the duration of all but the first few months of my path I ve thrown the pursuit of happiness to the wind. But now I feel lost… even as I’m on the right track (I believe) towards cultivation and service. The path of aimlessness and no-goal is lonely and burdensome. How does one negate the ego while adequately nourishing the spirit?

 

Rather than negating the ego, my approach is to see it clearly for what it is .

To put it and its endless activities, plans, regrets, efforts in perspective and to allow it to simply rest when possible.

The ego does not need to be negated and doing so can result in a nihilistic torpor or crisis.

It does need to be seen for what it is, a secretive control freak on autopilot and an unreliable boss.

Nourishing the spirit does not require ego, in fact ego is more often the obstacle.

 

On 7/11/2021 at 1:42 AM, TranquilTurmoil said:

If you do your best to let go of your desires and still haven’t arrived at enduring serenity… do you just keep going?

 

Absolutely! The relevant question is going where and by what means?

 

On 7/11/2021 at 1:42 AM, TranquilTurmoil said:

Taking over/charge  doesn’t seem to ever help… and passive waiting is unsatisfactory.

 

Taking over/charge is what the obstacle is already doing and passive waiting is its nemesis.

 

On 7/11/2021 at 1:42 AM, TranquilTurmoil said:

It would be one thing if I felt I was seeking irreversible transcendence, but I’m actually seeking unwavering immersion and the connection and compassion that comes with it. But when the only ppl who reciprocate in your life are your family, your Internet forum sangha of two weeks, a best friend that doesn’t want to be more than friends, and a lovely handful of retired zen center hippy do-gooders…. What’s the inspiration to be self-sacrificing other than to uphold your vows and honor your ancestors?

 

Good question and I think we each need to find that for ourselves, and it can change.

The most important inspiration for me are the concrete benefits and positive changes I've experienced as a direct, and indirect, result of my practice. Another is the example set by my own teacher(s). Yet another is the effects I've seen on others that are a result of the integration of my practice. Don't underestimate the value of family, an internet sangha, a best friend who doesn't want to be romantic, and a lovely handful of hippies. There is treasure there!

(Maybe the ennui is largely related to the best friend issue? Unrequited love is a bitter pill)

The key is your happiness, or lack thereof, has nothing to do with them and everything to do with you.

No better teacher of this point in my experience than Anthony DeMello, do you know his work?

 

On 7/11/2021 at 1:42 AM, TranquilTurmoil said:

I’m healing and losing heart, grateful and jaded, finding my way but resisting that it isn’t matching my hopes and expectations. (I know hope and expectation are hindrances and delusions… but only realized beings are potentially without hindrance and delusion)

 

Healing is a blessing.

Gratitude, resistance, losing heart are all feelings that come and go.

As long as we have hopes and expectations, we need to honor that and work with them in whatever ways we can.

But none of that is who you are, just passing experiences that the ego likes to indulge.

 

On 7/11/2021 at 1:42 AM, TranquilTurmoil said:

maybe some of you will have helpful insights and prescient wisdom. With all the  tension in this post bordering on negstivity I think I’m gonna give myself a luminous. Spacious, warm hug… and not expect an easy or satisfying answer. 🤷🏼‍♂️🤗🤷🏼‍♂️

 

 

What has worked for me is to develop a deep relationship with openness and awareness, naked and unflinching.

But the crucial point is precision. Miss by a hair and you miss by a mile.

 

Everything you've described are transient states of mind, none of that lasts.

There is a possibility of connecting to something deep inside and all around that is not affected by any of that.

It is very subtle yet sublime. It is elusive yet unwavering.

 

I don't know what specific path or practices you engage but if you can truly make a connection to the luminous, to the spaciousness and warmth that are your very essence, the place where that hug comes from, you will find a completely satisfying answer to any question that might arise... including the one about fulfillment.

 

One obstacle I've found is that we need to develop trust and confidence in it. We may get a glimpse, maybe a very powerful taste, but it is unfamiliar and we tend to fall back to relying on the wily ways of the mind to deal with real life situations. We need to bring the open awareness from the cushion to the present moment whenever confronting these doubts and questions and continually return to that openness and warmth rather than looking for conceptual answers. Eventually confidence arises and questions self-liberate.

 

Anyway, this is what comes up for me when I read your words.

As DeMello would say,      if that helps, WONDERFUL, if not, WONDERFUL!

All we can do is dance.

 

Wishing for your peace and fulfillment...

_/\_

[freeform]

@TranquilTurmoil - understood

 

Best of luck in your endeavour 🙏🏼

[TranquilTurmoil]

8 hours ago, steve said:

"Is fulfillment a worthwhile goal?"

As far as goals goes I would say yes. Much better than most.

 

 

Rather than negating the ego, my approach is to see it clearly for what it is .

To put it and its endless activities, plans, regrets, efforts in perspective and to allow it to simply rest when possible.

The ego does not need to be negated and doing so can result in a nihilistic torpor or crisis.

It does need to be seen for what it is, a secretive control freak on autopilot and an unreliable boss.

Nourishing the spirit does not require ego, in fact ego is more often the obstacle.

 

 

Absolutely! The relevant question is going where and by what means?

 

 

Taking over/charge is what the obstacle is already doing and passive waiting is its nemesis.

 

 

Good question and I think we each need to find that for ourselves, and it can change.

The most important inspiration for me are the concrete benefits and positive changes I've experienced as a direct, and indirect, result of my practice. Another is the example set by my own teacher(s). Yet another is the effects I've seen on others that are a result of the integration of my practice. Don't underestimate the value of family, an internet sangha, a best friend who doesn't want to be romantic, and a lovely handful of hippies. There is treasure there!

(Maybe the ennui is largely related to the best friend issue? Unrequited love is a bitter pill)

The key is your happiness, or lack thereof, has nothing to do with them and everything to do with you.

No better teacher of this point in my experience than Anthony DeMello, do you know his work?

 

 

Healing is a blessing.

Gratitude, resistance, losing heart are all feelings that come and go.

As long as we have hopes and expectations, we need to honor that and work with them in whatever ways we can.

But none of that is who you are, just passing experiences that the ego likes to indulge.

 

 

 

What has worked for me is to develop a deep relationship with openness and awareness, naked and unflinching.

But the crucial point is precision. Miss by a hair and you miss by a mile.

 

Everything you've described are transient states of mind, none of that lasts.

There is a possibility of connecting to something deep inside and all around that is not affected by any of that.

It is very subtle yet sublime. It is elusive yet unwavering.

 

I don't know what specific path or practices you engage but if you can truly make a connection to the luminous, to the spaciousness and warmth that are your very essence, the place where that hug comes from, you will find a completely satisfying answer to any question that might arise... including the one about fulfillment.

 

One obstacle I've found is that we need to develop trust and confidence in it. We may get a glimpse, maybe a very powerful taste, but it is unfamiliar and we tend to fall back to relying on the wily ways of the mind to deal with real life situations. We need to bring the open awareness from the cushion to the present moment whenever confronting these doubts and questions and continually return to that openness and warmth rather than looking for conceptual answers. Eventually confidence arises and questions self-liberate.

 

Anyway, this is what comes up for me when I read your words.

As DeMello would say,      if that helps, WONDERFUL, if not, WONDERFUL!

All we can do is dance.

 

Wishing for your peace and fulfillment...

_/\_

Thank you for the warm and thoughtful commentary Steve. One thing I try my best to find a middle way on is not engaging in self-denial (anymore) while not indulging egoic desires.. It gets subtle.

 

I dont know where Im going other than towards growth and service... and without having a way  to really contextualize further progress that I know of it gets easy to feel lost.

 

It's interesting besides if I knew 3-7 years ago I would regain the aforementioned refuges I would be absolutely jubilant! However when you get what you thought you wanted the ego grasps for more, and when you dont get what you hoped for it's a crash. It's not just that my best friend is a situation of unrequited love... it's that the life I dreamed o returning to was as illusory as just that.. a dream. Waking up to that is a shock and I feel like I carry my pain on my face 24/7 even as I experience beauty and humor.

 

Dwai's suggestion of resting in the "silent canvas" was actually very helpful last night. However I've never derived much happiness of finding even exalted states of serenity and clarity when it has been found in what seemed like isolation. But I do hope to realize what you are pointing to here... self-sufficient contentment through arriving at intrinsic worth and unconditional love/compassion/friendliness.

 

It took me a long time to develop what I consider discernment and inner independence.... I dont think that aspect is so big of an issue anymore, it's that I have a hard time coming to terms with the nature of samsara... at least until I learn to see it simultaneously as nirvana/Suchness.

 

I have only briefly seen Anthony DeMello mentioned on this forum... will do further investigate... and hope to keep dancing... both with life and quite literally dancing/singing/rapping/writing... with whatever grace or lack of grace I can muster.

 

Reciprocating the warm wishes,

-Elliot

[TranquilTurmoil]

7 hours ago, freeform said:

@TranquilTurmoil - understood

 

Best of luck in your endeavour 🙏🏼

Thank you. FWIW i had hoped to connect with you specifically when I went from a lurker to a poster on the forum (among some others). So hopefully if the barriers to communication/differences of approach ever fall away... I'll be here!

 

-Elliot

[doc benway]

12 minutes ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

I have only briefly seen Anthony DeMello mentioned on this forum... will do further investigate...

 

His book Awareness is brilliant, as is The Way to Love. If you like to listen there is an 8 CD set called Wake Up to Life that is also wonderful. Not every one resonates with him or his delivery. I find he cuts through to the core in a cloak of humor and practicality.

🕺🏻

[dwai]

42 minutes ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

Dwai's suggestion of resting in the "silent canvas" was actually very helpful last night. However I've never derived much happiness of finding even exalted states of serenity and clarity when it has been found in what seemed like isolation.
 

That was step 2

42 minutes ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

But I do hope to realize what you are pointing to here... self-sufficient contentment through arriving at intrinsic worth and unconditional love/compassion/friendliness.

With more marination in the silent canvas, you will realize that you’ve always been that silent canvas, irrespective of what’s painted on it. Identify with the paintings and you’re subject to pain, pleasure. Resist pain and crave pleasure and you’re suffering. Just be the silent canvas and enjoy all the paintings going on upon you.  

(that’s step 1) 

 

[freeform]

5 hours ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

Thank you. FWIW i had hoped to connect with you specifically when I went from a lurker to a poster on the forum (among some others). So hopefully if the barriers to communication/differences of approach ever fall away... I'll be here!

 

-Elliot

Sure  

 

Happy to connect when you feel up to it. I wouldn’t treat differences of approach as barriers at all.

[TranquilTurmoil]

6 hours ago, dwai said:

That was step 2

With more marination in the silent canvas, you will realize that you’ve always been that silent canvas, irrespective of what’s painted on it. Identify with the paintings and you’re subject to pain, pleasure. Resist pain and crave pleasure and you’re suffering. Just be the silent canvas and enjoy all the paintings going on upon you.  

(that’s step 1) 

 

I see  (I think). I think if I was a silent canvas amongst other silent canvases it might be easier to enjoy the  Ocean of Life in detachment... calmly observing every rise and fall? But like you alluded to earlier, it's a bit hard as a lay person... faced with all that is terrible in samsara/maya often, resigning to it, and when true joy is experienced... it's either a tempory experience amongst loved ones, or if it's in solitude it kind of feels like: Oh well this is nice... but now what?

Equanimity will lead you to be rather indifferent/detached to the rising and fall as they occur. However, that doesnt cut the root of grasping and rejecting. And I realize typing this I hold on to my pain, and dont know if/how to let it go.... and what would remain of "me" and my ordinary humanity if I sort of hacked my mind to abide in a state of "Silent Illumination"? However, I think this is a emotional disconnect from higher truth. As I told my best friend after talking to her after a 3 year hospital hiatus, "The Spiritual Path is not as glamorous as I thought it would be :/" And I might have shared thid quote already too, but to quote my hospital therapist who I talked to a week ago: "Life is not for Wussies <3".

 

Hope that makes sense.

[TranquilTurmoil]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

Sure  

 

Happy to connect when you feel up to it. I wouldn’t treat differences of approach as barriers at all.

I know you have read many of my posts... maybe if I explained my personal "story"/spiritual upbringing, and the battle scars I experienced in my early years of the journey (Being told by many family/hospital staff many unflattering things about by perception of reality rather constantly, being emasculated/humiliated on a daily basis on both an intellectual and visceral level, not having any refuge during this time other than being an island to myself)... maybe you might re-examine what's skillful or not for my specific situation? But then again... maybe we should save that for some future time when I'm more receptive to you naturally. I just dont do well with Tough Love at this time... I can accept hard truths about myself that I may be inclined to disbelieve.... but unless someone has penetrating insight into me I'm very hard to be convinced.

 

Food for Non-Thought (lol)

 

Edit: I think it's essential that a teacher or even spiritual friend be able to push and prod the student/friend, to uncomfortably encourage them towards growth... but in my case it feels more being pushed towards emotional withdrawal when repeatedly pushed in a way I'm not ready for.... I am flawed I know lol

Edited July 14, 2021 by TranquilTurmoil

[old3bob]

(Jewish/Christian takes, or to me like reaching the edge of an abyss and making a choice to break the grip of doubt which can not stand before the greater truth beyond it) 

Vanity of vanities, all is vanity: Ecclesiastes

By Dr. Jeff Mirus ( bio - articles - email ) | Jul 17, 2018 | In Scripture Series

     

"The Book of Ecclesiastes offers fascinating insights into what the Jewish intellect had grasped of the purpose of life two or three hundred years before Christ. The voice of the book is that of Ecclesiastes, or “the Preacher”, who was King over Jerusalem, and who may be construed in some sense as a representation of Solomon. The Preacher recounts how he has devoted himself to acquiring every form of knowledge and wisdom, and to pursuing the good things of the world, only to find again and again that everything is “vanity and a striving after wind” (e.g., 2:11).

The Book consists of twelve brief chapters, and In the end the Preacher concludes that wisdom consists in accepting life as it comes while continuing to do the work God has given one to do, enjoying the fruits of that sober labor, all in the context of the deep ties of family and community. Thus:

Enjoy life with the wife whom you love, all the days of your vain life which he has given you under the sun, because that is your portion in life and in your toil at which you toil under the sun. Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going. [9:9-10]

In this sense, the Book is somewhat discouraging. It is pervaded with the acceptance of God’s will but betrays almost no sense of God’s plan extending beyond fidelity to the daily work and the family commitments given by God. The introductory note in the Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition compares the spiritual context to that of the Book of Job, making the following point:

Ecclesiastes has to insist on God’s goodness and power and providence even though experience seems at times to show the contrary. He has no solution to offer other than faith in God and trust that he will, in his own way and time, punish evil and reward good; cf. 3:17; 8:12-13. He constantly emphasizes the vanity of created things, which can never satisfy the heart of man.

But I chose my words carefully in the opening paragraph, when I referred to what the Jewish intellect had grasped. There is far more in Sacred Scripture than what we can grasp through reason, and it seems to me that the most important interpretive point to make about Ecclesiastes is that the sacred author deliberately chooses to restrict the horizon to what we can know through human reason. The writer could, after all, have drawn on the Jewish mystical tradition, and there are intimations of eternal life with God in other Biblical books which are even older—flashes of what trust in God will lead to in the end.

We saw this in Job (“For I know that my redeemer lives”) and we see it repeatedly in the Psalms. Even in Ecclesiastes, the Preacher may say more than he realizes when he admits (in apparent frustration): “I have seen the business that God has given to the sons of men to be busy with. He has made everything beautiful in its time; also he has put eternity into man’s mind, yet so he cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end” (3:10-11) (emphasis added).

The Frustration of Desires

Granted, it is a big step from this to “eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man conceived, what God has prepared for those who love him” (1 Cor 2:9), and yet St. Paul essentially quotes this passage from the prophet Isaiah (64:4 and 65:17), who was active half a millennium before the Book of Ecclesiastes was composed, though the verses Paul uses may have been composed somewhat later than the earlier portions of the prophet’s work. Nonetheless, even in the somewhat disappointing chapters of Job and Eccleiastes, foreshadowings of redemption are visible. But the author of Ecclesiastes deliberately restricts the kind of knowledge he will use to make his point.

The subtitle in the RSV-CE for Ecclesiastes chapter 5 is “Reverence, Humility, Enjoyment” while the subtitle for chapter 6 is “Frustration of Desires”. These are certainly apt in capturing the Preacher’s wisdom (reverence, humility, enjoyment) rather than preoccupying ourselves with vanities, an ultimately unsatisfying striving after wind. The following text expresses his theme perfectly:

There is a grievous evil which I have seen under the sun: riches were kept by their owner to his hurt, and those riches were lost in a bad venture; and he is father of a son, but he has nothing in his hand. As he came from his mother’s womb he shall go again, naked as he came, and shall take nothing for his toil, which he may carry away in his hand. This also is a grievous evil: just as he came, so shall he go; and what gain has he that he toiled for the wind, and spent all his days in darkness and grief, in much vexation and sickness and resentment? Behold, what I have seen to be good and to be fitting is to eat and drink and find enjoyment in all the toil with which one toils under the sun the few days of his life which God has given him, for this is his lot. [5:13-18]

But again, this must be a deliberately restricted vision—most likely restricted to what can be ascertained through human reason alone, through the wise man’s unaided rational analysis. In this deliberately-chosen context, we are privy to the sacred author’s determination to stay within what he knows for sure: Namely, that we must be content with the life God has given us, not striving after false goals that cannot satisfy, but rather trusting in God in all things. Even today, with the benefit of Christ, the spiritual life consists largely in this trust, even when the way is dark for us—“because we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen” (2 Cor 4:18).

When we think of the Book of Ecclesiastes in this way, we see a striking parallel with certain forceful lessons taught by Our Lord. Consider, for example, the parable of the rich man who enlarged his barns and storehouses: “ ‘Fool! This night your soul is required of you; and the things you have prepared, whose will they be?’ So is he who lays up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God” (Lk 12:20-21). Or:

Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust consume and where thieves break in and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust consumes and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. [6:19-21]

Prelude to the Gospel

The most significant difference between the book of Ecclesiastes and the Gospel is that Jesus Christ could speak authoritatively of a future life with our Father in Heaven while the authors of the Old Testament books could not. But they had plenty to say non-authoritatively, as it were: They had hopes and even glimpses of a future life with God—the God who, the Preacher assures us, “has put eternity into man’s mind”.

And sometimes the Preacher’s carefully-constructed mask slips just a bit, suggesting again that he knows through trust in God far more than he can prove through even the greatest human wisdom. “I saw all the work of God, that man cannot find out the work that is done under the sun. However much man may toil in seeking, he will not find it out; even though a wise man claims to know, he cannot find out” (8:17). Here is the voice of even the greatest human wisdeom, and yet just a few verses earlier, the Preacher had declared:

Because sentence against an evil deed is not executed speedily, the heart of the sons of men is fully set to do evil. Though a sinner does evil a hundred times and prolongs his life, yet I know that it will be well with those who fear God, because they fear before him; but it will not be well with the wicked, neither will he prolong his days like a shadow, because he does not fear before God. [9:11-13]

The lesson of Ecclesiastes is not nearly as bleak as it may seem at first glance. Succinctly stated, it is simply this: Vanity of vanities. All is vanity. Except to “fear god and keep his commandments; for that is the whole duty of man” (12:13). Man may not know the outcome of fidelity to this duty, but the last verse of the Book of Ecclesiastes says this: “For God will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil” (12:14). Without seeing the future, that already tells us quite a lot."

Edited July 14, 2021 by old3bob

[freeform]

32 minutes ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

maybe if I explained my personal "story"/spiritual upbringing, and the battle scars I experienced in my early years of the journey (Being told by many family/hospital staff many unflattering things about by perception of reality rather constantly, being emasculated/humiliated on a daily basis on both an intellectual and visceral level, not having any refuge during this time other than being an island to myself)... maybe you might re-examine what's skillful or not for my specific situation?

 

I am aware of your story. I'm also aware of the health issues you've mentioned. From the Daoist alchemical perspective, everything aligns and is quite clear.

 

Not discussing (or creating extra space for) your story is my most skilled response I'm afraid. (at least as skilled as I can manage) - but my response only aims at growth - not at comfort, or having you feel seen, accepted, soothed or understood. I get that this sounds like tough love - but actually, it's more just 'practical' rather than tough.

 

Growth is, unfortunately a little painful and uncomfortable. It may not be what you really want at the moment - and that's fine. I'm just not the one to provide empathy and sympathy. That's not my strong suit, and that's not how I could help.

 

Everyone has their story - and it's what creates our individual internal 'milieu'. You can either focus on the resulting milieu which is in the present... or on your story. One creates an opportunity for moving forward, the other soothes and entrenches us deeper into the acquired self. It's not necessarily the case that growth is the right thing to go for in all situations either. In fact it's probably not the right thing for you now at all.

 

I look at your 'millieu' (to the best of my ability given the circumstances) - and what jumps out at me is your long suffering Zhi - the 'spirit' of your kidneys. In reality, before any real growth can happen, your kidney system needs to be addressed - which is a pretty long-term process and would require you to break out of your 'paradigm', which is probably painful enough before even addressing something like personal or spiritual growth.

[TranquilTurmoil]

@freeform I get where you are coming from. One step at a time. I'm open to learning the esoteric Taoist understanding and perspectives.. potentially. I also recognize that sometimes growth is appropriate, sometimes healing is appropriate, and sometimes growth at the detriment to healing is appropriate ( i think). At this specific moment in time, I'm a little "drained" from so much posting + just making a dating profile that i thought would take 10 mins and never seemed to end. When I gain clarity on these issues... I'll re-evaluate and try to feel my way forward.. or whichever way it goes

[TranquilTurmoil]

One thing I'm curious about is spiritual compatibility... Does it make sense to learn esoteric Taoism if I aspire to the bodhisattva path specifically? Is the Immortal aspiration one where one leaves the world behind for the most part, or is it more nuanced and variable? It doesnt mesh with my personal inner truth to leave behind the world of suffering with the intention of rescuing few (even though I'm not currently really rescuing anyone that I can tell (although I am helpful I like to think )). Maybe as someone who has an in-depth understanding of Daoism and if I remember right has practiced Theravada (dont remember you saying you trained in the Mahayana) could illuminate that to me at your leisure?

 

[TranquilTurmoil]

@old3bob I dont have the energy now to read and respond to that but I will when I feel up to it!

[Shadow_self]

On 11/07/2021 at 6:42 AM, TranquilTurmoil said:

For the duration of all but the first few months of my path I ve thrown the pursuit of happiness to the wind. But now I feel lost… even as I’m on the right track (I believe) towards cultivation and service. The path of aimlessness and no-goal is lonely and burdensome. How does one negate the ego while adequately nourishing the spirit? If you do your best to let go of your desires and still haven’t arrived at enduring serenity… do you just keep going? Taking over/charge  doesn’t seem to ever help… and passive waiting is unsatisfactory. It would be one thing if I felt I was seeking irreversible transcendence, but I’m actually seeking unwavering immersion and the connection and compassion that comes with it. But when the only ppl who reciprocate in your life are your family, your Internet forum sangha of two weeks, a best friend that doesn’t want to be more than friends, and a lovely handful of retired zen center hippy do-gooders…. What’s the inspiration to be self-sacrificing other than to uphold your vows and honor your ancestors? I’m healing and losing heart, grateful and jaded, finding my way but resisting that it isn’t matching my hopes and expectations. (I know hope and expectation are hindrances and delusions… but only realized beings are potentially without hindrance and delusion)

maybe some of you will have helpful insights and prescient wisdom. With all the  tension in this post bordering on negstivity I think I’m gonna give myself a luminous. Spacious, warm hug… and not expect an easy or satisfying answer. 🤷🏼‍♂️🤗🤷🏼‍♂️

 

 

It sounds to me like you are struggling hard with desires, just at a more subtle level. These don't always have to be things as simple as base desires like food, sex, etc

 

I have a question if you don't mind.

 

Do you know who you are? Like really, deep down....your sense of self?

 

As freeform alluded to earlier....its not until we have built up a sense of self we can let go of it..

 

Sometimes when life doesn't go our way, or we are going through a period of transformation, we lose our sense of self....but that isn't the same as letting go of it..far from it actually

 

Having gone through that earlier in life...I see reflections of my experience in your words

 

Separate to the above...  I highlighted a few words about your best friend....is that said in a manner that you feel a certain way about said person, but said person does not feel the same about you???

[freeform]

18 minutes ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

Does it make sense to learn esoteric Taoism if I aspire to the bodhisattva path specifically?

 

Esoteric Daoism means something specific to certain groups (aka deity worship, talismans, exorcisms, magic, spirits etc) - I don't have much experience in that path.

 

I'm more talking about 'alchemical' daoism which is a sort of tantric path (working with the 'substances' of consciousness).

 

The bodhisattva vow is not incompatible with alchemical Daoism - though they come from quite different models. The vow matters most when you're at the cusp of enlightenment - which is probably some way off for most of us.

 

29 minutes ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

Does it make sense to learn esoteric Taoism

 

You don't really 'learn' Daoism - you practice it mostly... though of course learning is one small aspect of that.

 

You might find a lot of the work in Daoism involves taking quite a few steps back from where you might be focusing at currently. Most of the hard work is done on the 'foundation' - which prepares one for spiritual practice...

[dwai]

3 hours ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

I see  (I think). I think if I was a silent canvas amongst other silent canvases it might be easier to enjoy the  Ocean of Life in detachment... calmly observing every rise and fall?

There are no other silent canvases. Only One. 

3 hours ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

But like you alluded to earlier, it's a bit hard as a lay person... faced with all that is terrible in samsara/maya often, resigning to it, and when true joy is experienced... it's either a tempory experience amongst loved ones, or if it's in solitude it kind of feels like: Oh well this is nice... but now what?

Anything that comes and goes is not real. Joy/bliss is not a euphoric experience of the mind, but rather is that fulfillment that is the Silent canvas. 

3 hours ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

Equanimity will lead you to be rather indifferent/detached to the rising and fall as they occur. However, that doesnt cut the root of grasping and rejecting.

there is a difference between being numb and being equanimous. What you’re describing is being numb. Equanimity requires a dropping of grasping and rejecting. 

3 hours ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

And I realize typing this I hold on to my pain, and dont know if/how to let it go.... and what would remain of "me" and my ordinary humanity if I sort of hacked my mind to abide in a state of "Silent Illumination"? However, I think this is a emotional disconnect from higher truth.
 

Silent illumination/canvas IS the higher truth. One must let go of one’s concepts and ideas about this and just be. 

[old3bob]

Pure Shakti (and the ten thousand more) is not disconnected from Siva and so is "real",  thus "illusion" can only be an incorrect perception. 

 

Not completely unlike what some Buddhists might say, "Nirvana truly realized is Samsara properly understood (from Buddha and the Path to Enlightenment, by Raghavan Iyer, Theosophy Library Online, Internet 1986)

[TranquilTurmoil]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

There are no other silent canvases. Only One. 

Anything that comes and goes is not real. Joy/bliss is not a euphoric experience of the mind, but rather is that fulfillment that is the Silent canvas. 

there is a difference between being numb and being equanimous. What you’re describing is being numb. Equanimity requires a dropping of grasping and rejecting. 

Silent illumination/canvas IS the higher truth. One must let go of one’s concepts and ideas about this and just be. 

To clarify, Equanimity and non-discrimination while related are subtly different in my experience. Equanimity lies in remaining calm in the face of chaos, being strong and persevering in the face of suffering. I dont feel numb (mostly). However I havent fully let go (or come close to it).  That's what I consider non-discrimination. I hope that makes sense. Also I meant my resistance to abiding in true nature is my emotional disconnect from higher truth , not that abiding in higher nature is a disconnect from higher truth. I worded that poorly.

 

As for only One... as I alluded to in other threads.. There are different takes (which I assume you think are all One!) I personally am inclined to believe in "Not-Two", which is not quite the same.

[TranquilTurmoil]

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

 

 

It sounds to me like you are struggling hard with desires, just at a more subtle level. These don't always have to be things as simple as base desires like food, sex, etc

 

I have a question if you don't mind.

 

Do you know who you are? Like really, deep down....your sense of self?

 

As freeform alluded to earlier....its not until we have built up a sense of self we can let go of it..

 

Sometimes when life doesn't go our way, or we are going through a period of transformation, we lose our sense of self....but that isn't the same as letting go of it..far from it actually

 

Having gone through that earlier in life...I see reflections of my experience in your words

 

Separate to the above...  I highlighted a few words about your best friend....is that said in a manner that you feel a certain way about said person, but said person does not feel the same about you???

Oh i definitely have desires. I have longing, yearning, let down, a tender, broken heart to the world at large. I went through an identity crisis in college, after receiving a little wisdom at a Zen monastery built myself as a "guru in my mind", and then had all my identities stripped from me both suddenly and gradually. I dont know what is optimal in this moment however I'm averse to ego reifications if that makes sense?

 

I think me and my best friend both really love each other but in different ways. While I dont need to be with her Romantically, I see us drifting apart as I pursue dating and she develops her independent life. She is my last emotional hanger-on from my past life and I'm scared of becoming distant to the last thing that reminds me of a sense of "Home". I wish we could be together in an ideal world and be best friends forever lol... but she just wants me to be happy... with or without her personally involved in it. That's hard for me

[TranquilTurmoil]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

 

Esoteric Daoism means something specific to certain groups (aka deity worship, talismans, exorcisms, magic, spirits etc) - I don't have much experience in that path.

 

I'm more talking about 'alchemical' daoism which is a sort of tantric path (working with the 'substances' of consciousness).

 

The bodhisattva vow is not incompatible with alchemical Daoism - though they come from quite different models. The vow matters most when you're at the cusp of enlightenment - which is probably some way off for most of us.

 

 

You don't really 'learn' Daoism - you practice it mostly... though of course learning is one small aspect of that.

 

You might find a lot of the work in Daoism involves taking quite a few steps back from where you might be focusing at currently. Most of the hard work is done on the 'foundation' - which prepares one for spiritual practice...

Im referring to alchemical Daoism. Thanks for the clarification. I think vows are important as I'm not familiar with the vast majority of arhats having a change of heart and vowing to remain in samsara. But I have a limited perspective. Also the intention to cultivate solely for the sake of helping others can be a Powerful skillful means. I view the pursuit of leaving the world behind altogether as a form of noble hedonism lol and not compatible with my inner truth which is why I wanted to clarify.

 

I'm open to anything that i can see as anywhere from very beneficial to optimally beneficial. I just don't always have the control over my own free will in directing that. Im not doing any advanced practices (as I think you know from reading my posts)... I just follow the 8fold path,  and do paramita practice. That is more like relating to everyday life skillfully than anything else. I just rely on my Oracle (loaded-word?) as well as fate to direct me to the life situations that are most likely to bear the most fruit.

 

I asked about learning because as I'm not planning to submitting to a teacher quickly and following instructions in the way I have for the past 8 years... it makes sense to know what I may be getting into, what are the pros, the dangers, etc so I can figure out what my heart is drawn to.

 

Edited July 14, 2021 by TranquilTurmoil

[TranquilTurmoil]

38 minutes ago, old3bob said:

Pure Shakti (and the ten thousand more) is not disconnected from Siva and so is "real",  thus "illusion" can only be an incorrect perception. 

 

Not completely unlike what some Buddhists might say, "Nirvana truly realized is Samsara properly understood (from Buddha and the Path to Enlightenment, by Raghavan Iyer, Theosophy Library Online, Internet 1986)

I cant quite decode the HIndu/Yogic terminology, and I like the NIrvana quote, im just curious as to what you were responding to or trying to point to?