Is fulfillment a worthwhile goal ?

[Boundlesscostfairy]

To be fulfilled is everything for a young boy.

[Boundlesscostfairy]

When do you call it quits though?

[Boundlesscostfairy]

The ascetic pride..is worth allot in an immortality statement..

[old3bob]

2 hours ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

I cant quite decode the HIndu/Yogic terminology, and I like the NIrvana quote, im just curious as to what you were responding to or trying to point to?

 

it was a sideways response to Dwai's post where he said, "Anything that comes and goes is not real..." I'd say the whole multiverse emanates or "comes and goes" from Siva/Shakti and returns to Siva/Shakti thus is "real" in that sense and without being divorced.  (Paraphrased by me from one of the Saivite schools of Hinduism)

Edited July 14, 2021 by old3bob

[TranquilTurmoil]

15 minutes ago, Boundlesscostfairy said:

When do you call it quits though?

Well while there were times during my years of (at least more intense) trials and tribulations that I had the flight impulse of abandoning my path and starting a different life at my original Zen monastery… I knew that was never a good or real option. There is no quitting option really… if/when liberation/salvation/moderate fulfillment comes… Hooray! Til then or til indefinitely just gotta endure cheerfully 🤷🏼‍♂️

[TranquilTurmoil]

17 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

it was a sideways response to Dwai's post where he said, "Anything that comes and goes is not real..." I'd say the whole multiverse emanates or "comes and goes" from Siva/Shakti and returns to Siva/Shakti thus is "real" in that sense and without being divorced.  (Paraphrased by me from one of the Saivite schools of Hinduism)

I got you. Real is such a subjective term… conditioned and thus impermanent. is more fitting I think. Only that which is unconditioned is eternal from what I have read… and the complement to  that statement seems a bit self evident “Reality” it’s another story 

[Boundlesscostfairy]

The only thing you want to quit is the unway..?

[TranquilTurmoil]

3 minutes ago, Boundlesscostfairy said:

The only thing you want to quit is the unway..?

I'm not sure I fully understand but I will try to answer. I only want to "quit" what i believe to be against my best interest... so If i believe something is good for me I dont want to quit it, even If i do not enjoy it or causes me to suffer

Edited July 14, 2021 by TranquilTurmoil

[stirling]

3 hours ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

Well while there were times during my years of (at least more intense) trials and tribulations that I had the flight impulse of abandoning my path and starting a different life at my original Zen monastery… I knew that was never a good or real option. There is no quitting option really… if/when liberation/salvation/moderate fulfillment comes… Hooray! Til then or til indefinitely just gotta endure cheerfully 🤷🏼‍♂️

 

There IS no running away. I have friends and teachers that went the monastery route, only to find that the dharmakaya has mirrors hidden all over the seemingly "tranquil" monasteries as well. Even working with a good teacher means the mirror is always coming back to you. No quitting, no "short cuts" (as if there were such a thing). The only way through is honesty and sincerity with your self, and THIS, and genuine intention to stop your suffering. 

 

As for fulfillment: what would it be? Something you imagine? What you wanted yesterday... today... tomorrow? An impermanent thing or impermanent set of conditions from the outside world?  It is always a nebulous idea about what would make you happy. Drop nebulous ideas. Be in this moment without your thoughts of gain and loss... what needs to be added to it?

Edited July 14, 2021 by stirling

[Boundlesscostfairy]

So you want to quit suffering I assume?

[TranquilTurmoil]

47 minutes ago, Boundlesscostfairy said:

So you want to quit suffering I assume?

No, I think suffering is intrinsic to life for the overwhelming most part. I just guess I long for unity, peace, and joy in the midst of suffering

[Boundlesscostfairy]

So you are basically saying you must come to terms with suffering..?

 

Coming to terms with suffering as it is?

 

Can you change that matter? 

 

Yes you can use alchemy to change your suffering..

 

It's just a stain on your body anyway?

 

But its telled as the truth that you should represent your suffering with your body image..

 

Makes you look handsome as if from a parting of an ocean perhaps?

[doc benway]

7 hours ago, dwai said:

There are no other silent canvases. Only One. 

 

Maybe not the ideal place for this discussion but I don’t quite see it that way, other than in theory. Until complete and permanent liberation, extraordinarily rare among the living, each of us brings our unique human characteristics to the table, as have all the great masters. Each of our canvases are a unique expression of that ultimate, non-dual source. I feel each of us has the experience of a unique canvas, even in the moment and experience of awakening and throughout the awakened lifetime. As I’ve posted elsewhere, the experiences we have in awakening are determined primarily by the bounded nature we were feeling before, this is why people describe different experiences, albeit with a common thread. One may feel completely open, another may feel omnipotent, another immortal, or a combination but these are still all human experience. It may be a subtle point but I think it is important in order to not be carried away by the absolute perspective in a way that causes us to lose the ability to communicate with and empathize with others. The relative and the absolute abide side by side in life, both equally “real” and valid, depending on our individual and unique perspective. When we propose otherwise, I suspect we may be projecting conceptual models onto our living experience. At least that is my experience. I acknowledge it may be different for others.

[dwai]

2 hours ago, steve said:

 

Maybe not the ideal place for this discussion but I don’t quite see it that way, other than in theory. Until complete and permanent liberation, extraordinarily rare among the living, each of us brings our unique human characteristics to the table, as have all the great masters. Each of our canvases are a unique expression of that ultimate, non-dual source. I feel each of us has the experience of a unique canvas, even in the moment and experience of awakening and throughout the awakened lifetime. As I’ve posted elsewhere, the experiences we have in awakening are determined primarily by the bounded nature we were feeling before, this is why people describe different experiences, albeit with a common thread. One may feel completely open, another may feel omnipotent, another immortal, or a combination but these are still all human experience. It may be a subtle point but I think it is important in order to not be carried away by the absolute perspective in a way that causes us to lose the ability to communicate with and empathize with others. The relative and the absolute abide side by side in life, both equally “real” and valid, depending on our individual and unique perspective. When we propose otherwise, I suspect we may be projecting conceptual models onto our living experience. At least that is my experience. I acknowledge it may be different for others.

I look at it as a matter of “identifixation”.
 

Usually, our identity fixation has been with the ephemeral layers for so long, that the silent canvas is unknown — that’s why so much seeking, etc happens. Once that background has been found/recognized, it becomes apparent both “experientially” (as in no-thing-ness), and consequently intellectually, that this background cannot be separated anymore than space can be separated. What is unique/different are the minds (even the most rarified and transparent ones). The background is not the minds. It is what the minds are made up of. 

Edited July 14, 2021 by dwai

[TranquilTurmoil]

for all who have been following this thread:

 

I ve come to an important clarification. My “story/milieu “ is on a very symbolic/image level of visceral ness. It’s not purely in words and unskillful thought. I just woke up from a nap/meditation dream. I was drifting in water that was hellish and I went pretty close to falling into the pits/a significantly deeper level. Faced with this I spotted a cavern with a bed covered in rocks and unplugged computers where I was going to take refuge for the night. I think this dream was largely spurred on by getting a lack of response on spiritual/dharmic dating sites after giving it a hell of an effort, combined with the very real alienation I feel from so many to varying extent. The past two nights I ve been going back to my old habit of laying down early just to either recharge from exhaustion or because there feels like no other refuge. 
 

im not in crisis or in danger of self harm. I just have no other outlet. I fluctuate between cheerful lighthearted ness and the purgatory of my psyche. I hope this refuge bears fruit  🙏🏼

Edited July 16, 2021 by TranquilTurmoil

[TranquilTurmoil]

Drifting Through the Bardo

 

Coming to terms that the life that came before

Is truly no more

Letting go of attachment to that image

Ready to depart from the station 

Taking a one way trip to the Unknown

Thinking each stop is my simultaneous 

Exit of the train, entrance to new possibilities

But like the image of oasis in the desert 

Each mirage more convincing than the last one

It tests a mans patience if not his faith 

In the possibility of oasis at all

[freeform]

6 hours ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

My “story/milieu “

 

Don't confuse the two. One is a mental projection/interpretation - the other is like a current weather report. It's the difference between "it's a dull, dreary, grey day - wet and depressing" vs "90% cloud cover, 70% humidity and 6.3mm of precipitation".

[TranquilTurmoil]

16 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

Don't confuse the two. One is a mental projection/interpretation - the other is like a current weather report. It's the difference between "it's a dull, dreary, grey day - wet and depressing" vs "90% cloud cover, 70% humidity and 6.3mm of precipitation".

Regardless.   The point of that post is that I’m at dire emotional straits (or so it seems). My story may play a big role in that but I would like to transcend my story.  I’m all my years of this journey rarely have I hardened into anger and bitterness… I could use help from whoever can give it (in whatever way I can receive it) to stop that from happening at this juncture and will do my best to be open and receptive 🙏🏼

[TranquilTurmoil]

Once strong emotions start surfacing/taking root, it’s hard not to indulge in the story, which can lead to quite a vicious cycle 

[freeform]

55 minutes ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

Once strong emotions start surfacing/taking root, it’s hard not to indulge in the story

 

Indeed.

 

Especially if you don't have an anchor.

 

58 minutes ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

I could use help from whoever can give it (in whatever way I can receive it)

 

Create structure in your day - as in wake, sleep, eat and exercise at specific times - fill the rest of your time with structured activity that you've pre-determined and planned. Do some volunteering maybe - but in a structured way - as in delivering meals, doing some housework or gardening for people etc.

 

Make decisions and use your will. Accept that no decision is perfect and that you're allowed to make mistakes. But make use of your will for the purpose of re-gaining your ability to direct your actions. I'm sure you're not lacking determination - you're clearly a determined person that could do very well for yourself, you've just lost the ability to assert your will as a result of a key misunderstanding of the Chan tradition and the role of the YJJ.

 

If you allow your will to continue to atrophy, you in effect torture your kidney spirit - which is the root of your health, well-being and the anchor and deep wellspring for your mind and any spiritual pursuit. Let your kidneys continue to suffer and you'll continue to deteriorate your bones, continue to disperse your jing (which results in the other issues you've mentioned) as well as disconnect yourself from your Ming.

 

So that's your avenue for taking action - and the reasons for doing it.

 

Remember other people can't 'help' you in the way that you want - because that's not help, that's called being a servant. All that anyone on this forum can do is point out your blind spots and offer you an avenue for progress - but only you can actually walk down it.

[freeform]

PS

 

1 hour ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

(in whatever way I can receive it)

 

You have the power to decide how you receive something.

[doc benway]

1 hour ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

Once strong emotions start surfacing/taking root, it’s hard not to indulge in the story, which can lead to quite a vicious cycle 

 

I noticed something in myself this morning that might be of value... or not...

 

I'll often catch myself indulging in or clarifying a story in my mind, any story, more often than not a problem with no solution - political, emotional, economic, previous things I could have done differently, future plans that seem out of reach... whatever

There is a sense at the very beginning of this process, and recurring intermittently during the inner discussion, whether verbalized or not - "I think the problems is..."

So this morning it occurred to me to turn that little catch phrase around - "The problem is I think..."

Full stop... return to here and now where everything is possible

 

I don't mean to say thinking is bad or something to be eliminated. It is arguably our most powerful tool and largely what defines us as human. Indulging in endless loops and over-identifying with whatever part of me is reacting strongly, that is the problem. That identification locks us into such a restricted illusion of our full potential. Pain can't fix itself, at least not for long, but disrupting those loops and reconnecting with the freshness of the present moment is an unmatched source of healing and possibility.

 

 

[TranquilTurmoil]

@freeformand @steve first of all thank you.

I should say that I’m going for daily nature walks and am willing myself to re-establish a regular sitting practice. I also have been using my will/free will more than ever… to the point of excess.

 

I have been trying to repair, renew, replace wherever possible which has led to disappointment. I think stilling the mind, letting go of analytical thought, and not hurling myself at closed doors is key. In that spirit I won’t over elaborate. I’m out of the danger zone for the moment. But I hope to heal/renew and find a driving force again . 🙏🏼

[TranquilTurmoil]

17 minutes ago, steve said:

 

I noticed something in myself this morning that might be of value... or not...

 

I'll often catch myself indulging in or clarifying a story in my mind, any story, more often than not a problem with no solution - political, emotional, economic, previous things I could have done differently, future plans that seem out of reach... whatever

There is a sense at the very beginning of this process, and recurring intermittently during the inner discussion, whether verbalized or not - "I think the problems is..."

So this morning it occurred to me to turn that little catch phrase around - "The problem is I think..."

Full stop... return to here and now where everything is possible

 

I don't mean to say thinking is bad or something to be eliminated. It is arguably our most powerful tool and largely what defines us as human. Indulging in endless loops and over-identifying with whatever part of me is reacting strongly, that is the problem. That identification locks us into such a restricted illusion of our full potential. Pain can't fix itself, at least not for long, but disrupting those loops and reconnecting with the freshness of the present moment is an unmatched source of healing and possibility.

 

 

I totally agree with what is said here. It seems to require surrender and resignation as well as willful discernment for me to abide in the present moment. I have to let go of my desire for elusive concept of fulfillment/happiness… and be willing to allow myself to be in a degree of pain. This is an ongoing challenge and a moment to moment process

[TranquilTurmoil]

@freeform I don’t want to derail what is potentially a helpful dialogue, but while I recognize your superior experience with Tao and Tao teachers… I don’t see how your metaphysical interpretation of the Yi Jing is a definitive one and directly contradicts both my own experience and logical analysis/what is taught in the wilhelm/walker translations. I can contextualize my entire path in relation to “Awakening to the Tao” by Liu I-Ming… although it may seem to be cherry picking and rationalizations. 🧐