On fate, destiny, cosmic lessons, and the "don't know mind"

[TranquilTurmoil]

Hey bums. I was wondering on what informed takes any of you have on life's happenings and events and their significance. To clarify, I don't mean to make this merely intriguing intellectual speculation... it has a direct effect on my perspective, well-being, faith, and happiness.

 

For years I adopted the belief "Everything happens for a reason", that the universe is constantly giving us cosmic lessons, that we always get what we need (even when it seems like the opposite). This helped me adopt the "don't know mind" where I would drastically decrease reactivity to arduous life circumstances, unexpected turns, perceived failures, etc. But I don't exactly know what to believe these days. If i could believe that by harmonizing with what is beneficial and right (to the best of our abilities), the rest will eventually fall into place, then it might help me relax and drop all my worries and analysis. Conversely, even if that isnt the case I might still do my best to drop my worries and analysis out of a desire to eliminate things that cause needless suffering..

 

In my own experience, it seems that I have grown from all the losses and hardships I have suffered/endured, but I don't want to be complicit in or complacent in inviting them. So is it your understanding that karma merely means we reap what we sow? Or is there a hidden (albeit at times acknowledged) truth that there is some sort of divine meaning/plan even in the mundane workings of life? Or is there no definitive or universal answer in your opinions?

 

Hoping for sincere, helpful respones.

[doc benway]

My perspective on karma is not so much that I reap what I sow in a direct and predictable sense but rather my actions and choices have effects and that choosing my actions wisely can have a somewhat predictable impact. The complexity of cause and effect interactions inherent in our interdependent existence makes it such that we cannot always predict or observe the effects of karma but they are always working. 

 

I think that any meaning or plan we assign to a given experience or event is our own creation. That does not mean that there is no meaning in the universe. We are the pathways and arbiters of that very meaning. We are the expression, the dance and energetic display, of the universe. We are its eyes and ears, the vessel through which Self-Awareness manifests. The essence of karma is such that we do receive what we need in any given situation to foster our growth. In every instance, we have the opportunity to react as we see fit. The meaning arises from our own personal, familial, cultural, societal, and religious conditioning (and add as many more adjectives as you like - genetic, physiological, anatomical, etc...).

 

Everything that occurs in our lives can have as much or as little significance as we assign. In the final analysis, you create every aspect of every experience through a combination of your unique conditioning and limited sensory apparatus. A big part of my spiritual practice is to embrace challenges in my practice and work with them, which involves a process of hosting and allowing self-liberation to occur. What I've been taught is that it is generally not necessary to invite problems as we each have enough already, they will find us. On the other hand, because of the nature of karma, we do tend to be complicit hence the value in choosing our actions with care.

[Nungali]

7 hours ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

Hey bums. I was wondering on what informed takes any of you have on life's happenings and events and their significance. To clarify, I don't mean to make this merely intriguing intellectual speculation... it has a direct effect on my perspective, well-being, faith, and happiness.

 

 

I think its a huge 'hotch-potch' of dynamics with many  root causes  in different areas .  I suppose we could divide them basically into two classes ; those associated with self  ;  everything from your DNA /  ancestral genetics to your 'upbringing and conditioning. Those associated with your environment ; maybe you live in a wonderful , peaceful, near paradise , a war zone , a pandemic, natural disasters or not .  'Significance' is the meaning  WE give them, and is mostly self-referential .

 

 

7 hours ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

 

For years I adopted the belief "Everything happens for a reason", that the universe is constantly giving us cosmic lessons, that we always get what we need (even when it seems like the opposite). This helped me adopt the "don't know mind" where I would drastically decrease reactivity to arduous life circumstances, unexpected turns, perceived failures, etc. But I don't exactly know what to believe these days. If i could believe that by harmonizing with what is beneficial and right (to the best of our abilities), the rest will eventually fall into place, then it might help me relax and drop all my worries and analysis. Conversely, even if that isnt the case I might still do my best to drop my worries and analysis out of a desire to eliminate things that cause needless suffering..

 

In my own experience, it seems that I have grown from all the losses and hardships I have suffered/endured, but I don't want to be complicit in or complacent in inviting them.

 

Good !   I have seen people that have such a 'rosy view' on their perceived hardships that they may well be inviting them in unconsciously .   A better attitude might be  that 'shit happens'  and when  it does to try and make the best out of bad circumstances .

 

 

 

7 hours ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

 

 

So is it your understanding that karma merely means we reap what we sow? Or is there a hidden (albeit at times acknowledged) truth that there is some sort of divine meaning/plan even in the mundane workings of life? Or is there no definitive or universal answer in your opinions?

 

I think the answers are personal, not universal . For me karma isnt about  reaping what we sow ( in a non material sense , in a material sense though its exactly right  and that is what 'kama' was about    ' DIRECT ' consequence of action -   I dont mean 'straight away' as in 'direct' )  if you plant a lettuce seed, you will get lettuce, if you put pollutants in water, you will get polluted water  .... to extend that 'karma' a bit , the first may result in  healthy food , the second , in disease .   I dont think karma is indirect in the way that some think ... PARTICULARLY the belief that those that are suffering , through no fault of their own  (like the above 'outward circumstances ';  being born in a particular country , war zone, historical period ) have somehow 'bought it upon themselves' due to their past bad actions .  I dont like that view as it is often an excuse to get around the human unfairness in life .

 

 

7 hours ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

 

Hoping for sincere, helpful respones.

 

 

One view I like is based on the western hermetic view ; as we incarnate we 'come down'  ( to Earth) via a progressive level of steps represented by the classical energy of the planets . Then, in life, we progress upwards through them ; each level has a set of energies ' good and bad ' ( to put it really simply ) and its up  to us to navigate through them.  Through time these energies are  regulated through the movement of the cosmos . In the self, they are 'set'  at the moment f birth in the 'natal horoscope' .

 

As we navigate through the trials and joys of life, I feel it is immensely helpful to have a map ., there are many different types ; maps of the process  ( like I just described ) or maps of the self and  our 'psychic anatomy '  - there certainly is no shortage of them, we need to find those that best suit ourselves and situation.

 

Whether or not  this is part of the Cosmic Plan or an Invention of Man  ..... I will leave that up for the individual to decide  ... after, they have had some experience in it  .... thing is, if you approach it the right way, it doesnt really matter 'whoever came with it first , the chicken or the egg is immaterial, what is important id our journey and its results

[TranquilTurmoil]

@Nungali @steve thank you for the wonderful and insightful responses. Will see if I want to investigate it later 🙏🏼

[manitou]

What a great topic.  I approach phenomena, when mindful, as something that has already happened.  We are aware that time, per se, is an illusion in a sense.  Were it not for Rotation, there wouldn't be any Time at all.  So it's all happening Now....that which has happened, that which is happening, and that which will happen.  For me, that takes all the drama out of everything.  Easier to be the Observer sitting in the bleachers.  It's all good.

 

 

 

Edited July 23, 2021 by manitou

[TranquilTurmoil]

1 hour ago, manitou said:

What a great topic.  I approach phenomena, when mindful, as something that has already happened.  We are aware that time, per se, is an illusion in a sense.  Were it not for Rotation, there wouldn't be any Time at all.  So it's all happening Now....that which has happened, that which is happening, and that which will happen.  For me, that takes all the drama out of everything.  Easier to be the Observer sitting in the bleachers.  It's all good.

 

 

 

Switching my focus in the past weeks from actively thinking to observing thoughts arise has definitely helped in subduing strong and less desirable emotions. Which this forum has given me a healthy nudge towards doing.

[TranquilTurmoil]

21 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

 

I think its a huge 'hotch-potch' of dynamics with many  root causes  in different areas .  I suppose we could divide them basically into two classes ; those associated with self  ;  everything from your DNA /  ancestral genetics to your 'upbringing and conditioning. Those associated with your environment ; maybe you live in a wonderful , peaceful, near paradise , a war zone , a pandemic, natural disasters or not .  'Significance' is the meaning  WE give them, and is mostly self-referential .

 

 

 

Good !   I have seen people that have such a 'rosy view' on their perceived hardships that they may well be inviting them in unconsciously .   A better attitude might be  that 'shit happens'  and when  it does to try and make the best out of bad circumstances .

 

 

 

 

I think the answers are personal, not universal . For me karma isnt about  reaping what we sow ( in a non material sense , in a material sense though its exactly right  and that is what 'kama' was about    ' DIRECT ' consequence of action -   I dont mean 'straight away' as in 'direct' )  if you plant a lettuce seed, you will get lettuce, if you put pollutants in water, you will get polluted water  .... to extend that 'karma' a bit , the first may result in  healthy food , the second , in disease .   I dont think karma is indirect in the way that some think ... PARTICULARLY the belief that those that are suffering , through no fault of their own  (like the above 'outward circumstances ';  being born in a particular country , war zone, historical period ) have somehow 'bought it upon themselves' due to their past bad actions .  I dont like that view as it is often an excuse to get around the human unfairness in life .

 

 

 

 

One view I like is based on the western hermetic view ; as we incarnate we 'come down'  ( to Earth) via a progressive level of steps represented by the classical energy of the planets . Then, in life, we progress upwards through them ; each level has a set of energies ' good and bad ' ( to put it really simply ) and its up  to us to navigate through them.  Through time these energies are  regulated through the movement of the cosmos . In the self, they are 'set'  at the moment f birth in the 'natal horoscope' .

 

As we navigate through the trials and joys of life, I feel it is immensely helpful to have a map ., there are many different types ; maps of the process  ( like I just described ) or maps of the self and  our 'psychic anatomy '  - there certainly is no shortage of them, we need to find those that best suit ourselves and situation.

 

Whether or not  this is part of the Cosmic Plan or an Invention of Man  ..... I will leave that up for the individual to decide  ... after, they have had some experience in it  .... thing is, if you approach it the right way, it doesnt really matter 'whoever came with it first , the chicken or the egg is immaterial, what is important id our journey and its results

I guess what I struggle with is the conflict between what I assume is the cosmic buddhist view that samsara is spontaneously born from ignorance and grasping and aversion, that we are all here by some divine misfortune of sorts, versus the at times comforting view that the Universe is on our side, and that we are always getting what we need most to harmonize us with an optimal destiny of sorts. I don't know if that is the actual buddhist view I described or how I have come to understand it through reading.

 

I have also been at times fascinated by western hermticism and the related but also either frightened by it, or intimidated by trying to sort through it. I just havent figured out if I am going to dive into a more esoteric form of study/practice, where to start, as it seems like it makes most sense to go wholeheartedly into one than become broad of knowledge in regards to esoteric theory and practices.

 

I do tend to think there is quite a bit of truth to astrology (when done sincerely and skillfully), but don't know much more about it than my sun sign.

[Bhathen]

1 hour ago, manitou said:

.that which has happened, that which is happening, and that which will happen

 

These verses always come to mind....

 

[TranquilTurmoil]

On 7/22/2021 at 12:36 PM, steve said:

My perspective on karma is not so much that I reap what I sow in a direct and predictable sense but rather my actions and choices have effects and that choosing my actions wisely can have a somewhat predictable impact. The complexity of cause and effect interactions inherent in our interdependent existence makes it such that we cannot always predict or observe the effects of karma but they are always working. 

 

I think that any meaning or plan we assign to a given experience or event is our own creation. That does not mean that there is no meaning in the universe. We are the pathways and arbiters of that very meaning. We are the expression, the dance and energetic display, of the universe. We are its eyes and ears, the vessel through which Self-Awareness manifests. The essence of karma is such that we do receive what we need in any given situation to foster our growth. In every instance, we have the opportunity to react as we see fit. The meaning arises from our own personal, familial, cultural, societal, and religious conditioning (and add as many more adjectives as you like - genetic, physiological, anatomical, etc...).

 

Everything that occurs in our lives can have as much or as little significance as we assign. In the final analysis, you create every aspect of every experience through a combination of your unique conditioning and limited sensory apparatus. A big part of my spiritual practice is to embrace challenges in my practice and work with them, which involves a process of hosting and allowing self-liberation to occur. What I've been taught is that it is generally not necessary to invite problems as we each have enough already, they will find us. On the other hand, because of the nature of karma, we do tend to be complicit hence the value in choosing our actions with care.

A couple things that were formative for me:

 

When I was 20 going on my first retreat at Blue Cliff Monastery in NY, my first spiritual friend was a 28 year old named John who had had quite a rough and insightful journey. Somehow we were discussing metaphysics which was frowned upon there, and I presented my case that I believed there is opportunity in all that life throws at us, but he responded with SiNCERE conviction that "We always get what we need." This was someone who had had direct insight into nonduality at an early age, had gone down the tantric path (TB and a form of HInduism) left behind his guru after losing faith being a hindu monk, abandoning his tantric vows as far as I can tell, as was one of the kindest, most compassionate humans I have ever met. That combined with my Walker interpretation of the Yi (which I have seen and am internalizing a lot of the criticism here of) carries heavy themes of fate and that "Every moment in every person's life contains the teaching we need most at the time". This has been a powerful skillful means (i think) believing to the best of my capacity for years... but looking at the external world it's a bit hard to fathom or reconcile. So maybe for now I will stick with making the most out of everything instead of taking leaps of faith... who knows?

[stirling]

32 minutes ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

I guess what I struggle with is the conflict between what I assume is the cosmic buddhist view that samsara is spontaneously born from ignorance and grasping and aversion, that we are all here by some divine misfortune of sorts, versus the at times comforting view that the Universe is on our side, and that we are always getting what we need most to harmonize us with an optimal destiny of sorts. I don't know if that is the actual buddhist view I described or how I have come to understand it through reading.

 

There is nothing cosmic about samsara. Samsara is YOUR product. It is caused by dukkha (best translated as "struggle", vs. the common "suffering"). You create your struggle moment to moment by living in your delusions about how things "should" be, or you hope the "might" be, created by the thinking mind. Reality, as it is, is free of delusion. Things are simply as they are. The dukkha is always YOURS - your construction.

 

If you meditate you can notice that when the mind is quiet and empty the dukkha drops away. When the thinking mind engages in your story and its tales about your misfortunes, attachments and aversions, there is samsara. It is really very simple. On, off. 

 

The universe IS on your side - it is a unity you have never been separate from. Even what you think of as dukkha is there to point out where you are stuck - your attachments and aversions... what you struggle to accept just as it is. This is a KINDNESS. It is the very core nature of love and compassion. Waking up from samsara is what is what you most need. All dukkha is delusion perfect for pointing out your obscurations. 

[TranquilTurmoil]

11 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

There is nothing cosmic about samsara. Samsara is YOUR product. It is caused by dukkha (best translated as "struggle", vs. the common "suffering"). You create your struggle moment to moment by living in your delusions about how things "should" be, or you hope the "might" be, created by the thinking mind. Reality, as it is, is free of delusion. Things are simply as they are. The dukkha is always YOURS - your construction.

 

If you meditate you can notice that when the mind is quiet and empty the dukkha drops away. When the thinking mind engages in your story and its tales about your misfortunes, attachments and aversions, there is samsara. It is really very simple. On, off. 

 

The universe IS on your side - it is a unity you have never been separate from. Even what you think of as dukkha is there to point out where you are stuck - your attachments and aversions... what you struggle to accept just as it is. This is a KINDNESS. It is the very core nature of love and compassion. Waking up from samsara is what is what you most need. All dukkha is delusion perfect for pointing out your obscurations. 

Yayyy!!!!

[TranquilTurmoil]

FWIW I don't think i'm in a state of overt resistance or dukkha right now, and I wasnt for a long time until the past couple weeks. I'm in a state of emotional rigidity right now/the surfacing of dark emotions (which I don't remember experiencing in years), which has led to me losing my sense of having a heart full of love (though I retain my compassion). I am trying to thaw the internal ice, and my grasping at the thawing process slows it down. So in the meantime, I have been trying to find the right balance of "Just Sitting", walking, music, communication, expression, acceptance, patience, etc to return to emotional receptivity. I do see the value of where I am, I see the value of where I have been, and it's an ongoing process to disentangle myself from the habits of grasping and rejecting. I am averse to emotional rigidity, but to reiterate I do see on a rational level that i have to do my best to drop the aversion to help dissolve the rigidity. 

[stirling]

Whatever state you are in is fine. What is important, until insight, is to keep awakening to this moment. Realize over and over that you are lost in your story, however subtle and slight dukkha might be, and bring the mind back to stillness. Ultimately, there is no balance that needs to be retained by you. Realizing no-self is realizing that the "balance" was never up to you. Trying to balance is another trap - another thing to do. There is ultimately nothing to do, and no "self" to "do" it. There is just what is happening, and watching thoughts arise about it. Just relax and bring the mind home as often as possible.

 

FWIW it sounds like you are on the right track.

 

[TranquilTurmoil]

When I say balance, I mean skillfully trying to accomodate my barriers to ego dissolution if that makes sense. My reason for not sitting long hours is that it might set "Me" into a state of counter-productive agitation. I figure the way to go about chipping away at ego is step by step rather than contriving either a "head-on" or a holistic method to do so. Maybe we are on the same page, and you just thought I was striving toward a fictionalized ideal of equilibrium? Either way, thanks for the feedback.

 

Either way, I think your advice is spot on about returning to the moment again and again, dropping ideas and stories again and again... that certainly helps dukkha fade on it's own and seems to invite the light to return.

Edited July 24, 2021 by TranquilTurmoil

[manitou]

19 hours ago, stirling said:

 

 

The universe IS on your side - it is a unity you have never been separate from. Even what you think of as dukkha is there to point out where you are stuck - your attachments and aversions... what you struggle to accept just as it is. This is a KINDNESS. It is the very core nature of love and compassion. Waking up from samsara is what is what you most need. All dukkha is delusion perfect for pointing out your obscurations. 

 

 

And We Are the universe.  It is our consciousness that is the vector for universal movement and coordination.  Before everything, We Were.  Of course it's friendly, if you're in consciousness.  It's friendly if you just let it do its thing.

 

 

19 hours ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

I do see the value of where I am, I see the value of where I have been, and it's an ongoing process to disentangle myself from the habits of grasping and rejecting. I am averse to emotional rigidity, but to reiterate I do see on a rational level that i have to do my best to drop the aversion to help dissolve the rigidity. 

 

 

Your insight on grasping and rejecting is spot on, IMO.  This is another way of saying judgment.  Things are not good or bad, they just are.  If we don't label as good or bad, what is there to fear?  The rigidity will melt away.

[stirling]

If the goal is to be a happier, more relaxed person, 20 minutes a day can be helpful. If the goal is to see how things are and finally be rid of delusions and dukkha I would say 30+ minute sits are more productive. Meditating DOES stir up your shit... all of your painful feelings will come up. All but the most painful feelings and obscurations can be effectively processed and let go of in meditation. Those problems are the gold, really, but it can definitely be overwhelming when you are in the thick of a raft of personal issues. Taking on what you can handle makes sense.

 

I wasn't sure if you were working toward a fictional equilibrium or not, but thought I'd warn against it anyway.

 

As I say, and without a huge amount of information, it appears you are on the right track.

 

Bows.

 

[TranquilTurmoil]

1 hour ago, stirling said:

If the goal is to be a happier, more relaxed person, 20 minutes a day can be helpful. If the goal is to see how things are and finally be rid of delusions and dukkha I would say 30+ minute sits are more productive. Meditating DOES stir up your shit... all of your painful feelings will come up. All but the most painful feelings and obscurations can be effectively processed and let go of in meditation. Those problems are the gold, really, but it can definitely be overwhelming when you are in the thick of a raft of personal issues. Taking on what you can handle makes sense.

 

I wasn't sure if you were working toward a fictional equilibrium or not, but thought I'd warn against it anyway.

 

As I say, and without a huge amount of information, it appears you are on the right track.

 

Bows.

 

I’m not very inclined to make happiness my goal these days… I’m finally surrendering to the fact that samsara is inherently unsatisfactory…. I’m down to sit for as long as seems appropriate. I just don’t want to use forcible effort nor do I want to create energetic rigidity/invite dark energy… difficult emotions I’m okay with and see their value. There is a subtle distinction there I think. I’m okay with struggling towards growth (or even awakening)… I was just caught off guard with lack of positive energy flow/loss of love in my heart. But as of last night it seems like the light is on track to return so I think perseverance will right everything in time as much as anything/everything needs to be righted 🙏🏼

[TranquilTurmoil]

2 hours ago, manitou said:

 

 

And We Are the universe.  It is our consciousness that is the vector for universal movement and coordination.  Before everything, We Were.  Of course it's friendly, if you're in consciousness.  It's friendly if you just let it do its thing.

 

 

 

 

Your insight on grasping and rejecting is spot on, IMO.  This is another way of saying judgment.  Things are not good or bad, they just are.  If we don't label as good or bad, what is there to fear?  The rigidity will melt away.

I realize we really need to cultivate a certain level of stillness to drop grasping and rejecting… rational discernment alone is not enough. In my experience rigidity usually gradually thaws more than melt away but am grateful for the encouragement 🌊 

[manitou]

I think there's one other thing that should be brought up here.  How our daily mundane thoughts contribute to our manifestations.  I take one thing that Jesus said very seriously:  Judge not, lest ye be judged.  I don't believe he was talking about St. Peter or anyone.  not a judge in that sense.  But in feeling judged, feeling like you don't fit in.  If we are feeling judged, it is because we are judging others.  And I think that's also what he meant when he said Keep your Eyes High in the Hills.  Keep the thoughts up there.

 

Like most people, I have been in the habit of making snap judgments when passing someone on the street, etc.  Oh, that poor lady's so fat....sort of things.  Just observations which manifest into silent words.  This is an easy habit to stop, to catch one's self.  It will become very liberating to lose the self-consciousness inner dialogue.  It's a handy tool, and it works well.  If I feel 'less than' on any given day, I look back at the judgments I've made of others.  There's always a connection.

[TranquilTurmoil]

It is quite helpful dropping the inner dialogue… I ve resisted devoting myself to the present moment for years for a few reasons, but now I see even if it isn’t a panacea it’s not a very beneficial and a much better alternative than to be contemplating without tranquility in the body. When my mind was at ease it was easier to tolerate being scattered and distracted, but the value of “not knowing” becomes more apparent when your mind is not at ease. 🙏🏼🌳

[Wu Ming Jen]

Turn the light around. The light is inside. The outside world is pliable inside and outside match. The infinite spirit inside all of us is working for the benefit of all things.

 

When the outside world is allowed by ourselves to define us it is full of hardship, unfortunate events, internal storms, fires and floods.

 

We come from the unknown and return to the unknow. The knowing mind is a thief stealing and warping reality. The infinite spirit turns this mind into an employee to work for the greater good. This knowing mind knows in every way that it is not the boss.

 

[TranquilTurmoil]

35 minutes ago, Wu Ming Jen said:

Turn the light around. The light is inside. The outside world is pliable inside and outside match. The infinite spirit inside all of us is working for the benefit of all things.

 

When the outside world is allowed by ourselves to define us it is full of hardship, unfortunate events, internal storms, fires and floods.

 

We come from the unknown and return to the unknow. The knowing mind is a thief stealing and warping reality. The infinite spirit turns this mind into an employee to work for the greater good. This knowing mind knows in every way that it is not the boss.

 

I’m trying my friend 🙏🏼